Is it ok for a man to pray while wearing a head covering? Paul told the Corinthians it was NOT ok.

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CadyandZoe

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So are you suggesting we can simply ignore the ep[istles because they were to written to us specifically?
No, I'm saying that Paul and the Corinthians share information between them that we don't know about. We weren't present when he delivered the traditions of which he spoke. All we can do is deduce the tradition from clues in the text. I said this in response to your accusation that I am "philosophizing the text" which is an unfair and incorrect accusation. The best way to study the Bible is to avoid dismissing our questions. Intellectual curiosity is an essential ingredient in Bible study.

We should always be ready to ask questions like, "why did he say it THAT way? What did this mean to his readers? Would they have understood his points? What problem is Paul addressing?

He seems to be speaking about the tradition of removing the head covering while praying and prophesying. And he praises them for wanting to keep that tradition. What we don't know is why he delivered that tradition or what significance Paul gave it. But we do know, from this epistle, that his instruction concerning the removal of the head covering presented a problem for the women, because if a woman were to remove her head covering to pray and prophesy just as the men were doing, this would cause her to disrespect her husband. THIS is the problem Paul decides to address in his letter.
YOu are making Paul this linguistic scholar superb and knowledgeable of all the finer points and nuances of argument.. but this dictum comes from God and not Paul.
Really? Are you unfamiliar with the OT prophets and the linguistic pattern associated with the pronouncement of the Oracles? When a prophet speaks for God, the prophet says, "Thus saith the Lord." Nothing like that appears in Paul's epistle to the Corinthians. We have no reason to believe that Paul is presenting oracles from God.

Rather, a careful examination of the passage reveals Paul's defense of his position that a woman ought to leave her head covering on her head while praying or prophesying. In other words, he wants the Corinthians to become convinced in their own minds that a woman ought to continue to wear her head covering during prayer and prophesying based on the reasons he gives.

Let's review each verse and look for imperatives -- verbs that express what one ought to do.

Verse 1: imperative -- Be imitators of me, just as I am of Christ.
Verse 2: statement of fact
Verse 3: statement of fact
Verse 4: statement of fact
Verse 5: statement of fact
Verse 6: if-then conditional.
Verse 7: statement of ethical principle -- a man ought not to have his head covered, since . . .
Verse 8: statement of fact
Verse 9: statement of fact
Verse 10: statement of ethical principle -- a woman ought to have "authority" on her head, because . . .
Verse 11: statement of fact
Verse 12: statement of fact
Verse 13: imperative -- judge for yourselves
Verse 14: interrogative
Verse 15: statement of fact
Verse 16: statement of fact.

A review of the text has shown only TWO imperatives: 1) be imitators of me, and 2) judge for yourselves. We also have two statements of ethical principle where Paul gives a man reason to remove his hat during prayer and prophesying, (Verse 7) and he gives a woman reason to keep her hat on during prayer and prophesying. (Verse 10)

If Paul's intent was simply to relay two commandments of God, then all he needed to do was give a clear command, "Men shall remove the hat while praying and prophesying, But not the women. A woman should keep her hat on her head while praying and prophesying." But that is not what Paul did. He didn't list two oracles of God. Instead, he gave them ethical principles based on reason to do as he says. A man ought to do one thing, based on the reason given, and a woman ought to do the opposite for the reason given. These ethical principles continue for as long as the reasons remain valid.

If the reasons are no longer valid, then the ethical principle is no longer valid.

Paul tells a woman that she ought to wear her head covering because of the angels, and I maintain that he refers to the messages the head coverings convey. He states that a woman ought to wear "authority" on her head, which is a short-hand way of saying, she ought to wear the head covering because it represents her husband's authority over her. That is what the head covering means in that culture. And she should continue to wear her head covering because to do otherwise will be a sign of disrespect to her husband. Why? Because THAT is what removing the head covering MEANS.

A cultural symbol is a physical manifestation that signifies the ideology of a particular culture or that merely has meaning within a culture. In her particular culture, a woman wore a head covering as a sign of respect. She respects her husband and so she wears the covering. In Paul's view, this act of respect, the wife for the husband, should be both encouraged and acknowledged. God himself teaches that a woman ought to respect her husband.

But, if she should remove her head covering during prayer or prophesying, just as her husband does, this would inadvertently signal disrespect for her husband. For this reason, Paul says, the wife should not imitate her husband and remove her covering. She should continue to wear her symbol of respect because of the message it conveys.
 

Michiah-Imla

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We should always be ready to ask questions like, "why did he say it THAT way? What did this mean to his readers?

“Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, Is it so that God has said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” (Genesis 3:1)

Intellectual curiosity is an essential ingredient in Bible study.

It’s actually a dangerous ingredient in Bible study.

Very dangerous!
 

Lambano

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'...and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’
 

Michiah-Imla

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“…Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” (Matthew 4:4)

“…eat, asking no question for conscience sake.” (1 Corinthians 10:27)

:Broadly:
 

Ronald Nolette

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No, I'm saying that Paul and the Corinthians share information between them that we don't know about. We weren't present when he delivered the traditions of which he spoke. All we can do is deduce the tradition from clues in the text. I said this in response to your accusation that I am "philosophizing the text" which is an unfair and incorrect accusation. The best way to study the Bible is to avoid dismissing our questions. Intellectual curiosity is an essential ingredient in Bible study.

We should always be ready to ask questions like, "why did he say it THAT way? What did this mean to his readers? Would they have understood his points? What problem is Paul addressing?

He seems to be speaking about the tradition of removing the head covering while praying and prophesying. And he praises them for wanting to keep that tradition. What we don't know is why he delivered that tradition or what significance Paul gave it. But we do know, from this epistle, that his instruction concerning the removal of the head covering presented a problem for the women, because if a woman were to remove her head covering to pray and prophesy just as the men were doing, this would cause her to disrespect her husband. THIS is the problem Paul decides to address in his letter.
Well what info Paul and the churches shared we do not know about is irrelevant. We have Gods Word and that is what God decided to pass down for the church age so we can obey.
A review of the text has shown only TWO imperatives: 1) be imitators of me, and 2) judge for yourselves. We also have two statements of ethical principle where Paul gives a man reason to remove his hat during prayer and prophesying, (Verse 7) and he gives a woman reason to keep her hat on during prayer and prophesying. (Verse 10)

If Paul's intent was simply to relay two commandments of God, then all he needed to do was give a clear command, "Men shall remove the hat while praying and prophesying, But not the women. A woman should keep her hat on her head while praying and prophesying." But that is not what Paul did. He didn't list two oracles of God. Instead, he gave them ethical principles based on reason to do as he says. A man ought to do one thing, based on the reason given, and a woman ought to do the opposite for the reason given. These ethical principles continue for as long as the reasons remain valid.
And this is he problem plaguing the church. Too many people seek to rip apart simple statements God inspired. Paul gave principles as god instructed him to pass down to local churches. Your whole list of statements is based on yo0ur presuppositional bias.
 

CadyandZoe

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“Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, Is it so that God has said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” (Genesis 3:1)



It’s actually a dangerous ingredient in Bible study.

Very dangerous!L
Luke 1:34 Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?”
 

CadyandZoe

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Well what info Paul and the churches shared we do not know about is irrelevant. We have Gods Word and that is what God decided to pass down for the church age so we can obey.

And this is he problem plaguing the church. Too many people seek to rip apart simple statements God inspired. Paul gave principles as god instructed him to pass down to local churches. Your whole list of statements is based on yo0ur presuppositional bias.
It does not follow that since the Bible is God inspired that it can't or won't critique culture or make statements that are valid for one culture and not another.

I didn't rip apart any verses or simple statements.
 

Ronald Nolette

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It does not follow that since the Bible is God inspired that it can't or won't critique culture or make statements that are valid for one culture and not another.

I didn't rip apart any verses or simple statements.
That is foolish. eh Scripture to be passed down to all generations , now has passages that do not apply.

And what happens when someone use your line and you disagree with them? Now you have to use extra biblical means to try to figure out what is valid and what is not.
 

CadyandZoe

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That is foolish. eh Scripture to be passed down to all generations , now has passages that do not apply.

And what happens when someone use your line and you disagree with them? Now you have to use extra biblical means to try to figure out what is valid and what is not.
Nothing foolish about it. That's just the way it works. The Epistles were written to specific churches with specific problems. Some of it applies to us today, while other things don't. God wants us to learn and use good judgment.
 

CadyandZoe

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That is foolish. eh Scripture to be passed down to all generations , now has passages that do not apply.

And what happens when someone use your line and you disagree with them? Now you have to use extra biblical means to try to figure out what is valid and what is not.
One more thing. It is very simple in this case. When Paul says that a woman should have authority on her head, his intent is to indicate the cultural practice during that time period. Why? Because during that time period, a head covering symbolically represented respect for her husband. As he also says, if a woman should remove her head covering that would be a sign of disrespect for her husband.

Is that what a head covering means today? No. When we see a woman wearing a hat we don't say to ourselves, "Oh, she is respecting her husband." No.

Today, instead, your hat represents your job. If you say that someone is wearing a particular hat, you mean that they are performing a particular role at that time. If you say that they wear several hats, you mean that they have several roles or jobs.

There is no such thing as a "marriage hat" today. Instead, the wedding ring signifies marriage.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Nothing foolish about it. That's just the way it works. The Epistles were written to specific churches with specific problems. Some of it applies to us today, while other things don't. God wants us to learn and use good judgment.
Sorry you think gd doesn't know how to write His own book for the church to live by.
 

Ronald Nolette

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One more thing. It is very simple in this case. When Paul says that a woman should have authority on her head, his intent is to indicate the cultural practice during that time period. Why? Because during that time period, a head covering symbolically represented respect for her husband. As he also says, if a woman should remove her head covering that would be a sign of disrespect for her husband.

Is that what a head covering means today? No. When we see a woman wearing a hat we don't say to ourselves, "Oh, she is respecting her husband." No.

Today, instead, your hat represents your job. If you say that someone is wearing a particular hat, you mean that they are performing a particular role at that time. If you say that they wear several hats, you mean that they have several roles or jobs.

There is no such thing as a "marriage hat" today. Instead, the wedding ring signifies marriage.
Well we have beaten this to death. You wish to believe parts of teh NT are no longer applicable- have a ball! We will see in teh end who is right
 

CadyandZoe

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Well we have beaten this to death. You wish to believe parts of teh NT are no longer applicable- have a ball! We will see in teh end who is right
I take a slightly different perspective. I'm glad we had this conversation and I appreciated hearing your perspective. Thank you very much for giving me your time. I pray that the Lord will bless you and your family this week. I hope we meet some day brother so I can thank you in person. :)
 
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Ronald Nolette

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I'm not falling for it. :)
Well if you think the omniscient God who inspired writers to write letters to become a book and inspired men to choose those books for all time for the church, put in parts that were only limited in time for certain cultures- you do seem to have a problem
 
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CadyandZoe

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Well if you think the omniscient God who inspired writers to write letters to become a book and inspired men to choose those books for all time for the church, put in parts that were only limited in time for certain cultures- you do seem to have a problem
There are no problems, only challenges.