Is it possible to lose salvation?

[mailmandan]

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Here he is after realizing I'm not falling for it.

He just can't get over it!

 

[nedsk]

Where did I say the Book of James is wrong. You are thinking of the greasy grace people

It's the catholics that are adding error to God's Word leading to their own deception.

They heap to themselves ear tickling false teachers having itching ears.

They pray to Jesus' momma, to dead saints, and twirl their rosary beads none of which is of God.

The brown scapular is meaningless and will do the catholics no good in the end, so just be aware.

Look you can mock me all you like the more you do the more I know I'm right. Faith by itself is useless. God gave you people a brain for thinking but if it was a used car it would have very low mileage

 

[bro.tan]

1 Corinthians 9:21-27
21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

In these verses, Paul's main topic is how he shares the Gospel (i.e. "win those who are without the law," "by all means save some," "do all things for the sake of the Gospel). All that follows from this point remains oriented on this topic.

24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

We know that Paul still had the matter of sharing the Gospel in view in these verses because he says so in verse 27: "...after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified." It was for the sake of doing so, for the sake of preaching the Gospel, that Paul exercised "self-control in all things," disciplining his body and making it his slave. He did not want to be "disqualified," or shown to be a hypocrite, denying in his conduct the things he proclaimed about the Gospel. It was not, then, fear of losing his salvation, or of not doing enough to have earned it, that motivated Paul's self-discipline. He had in view in the passage above only how best to evangelize the lost.

What is the "imperishable wreath" Paul mentioned? It is the reward God gives to those who "build" well upon the foundation of Jesus Christ. Paul wrote about this reward in his letter to the believers at Corinth:

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Here, the "reward" isn't salvation (which is a gift and cannot, therefore, be earned - Ro. 5:15; Eph. 2:8-9). We know this because the bad "builder" whose "building" is entirely burned up is still saved, "yet so as through fire" (or, with the smoke of hell on his clothes/by the skin of his teeth).

This passage from 1 Corinthians 9 is, then, not dealing with the matter of how one is saved but, rather, about how one ought to act so as not to be disqualified as an evangelist.

You reading from another Bible, but Also Paul says in Colossians 1: 23 if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

So what happen if you do not continue in the faith, because you are not grounded and your hope of the gospel is not strong. A person might give up. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).

 

[bro.tan]

In 1 Corinthians 9:27, Paul is talking about being disqualified for the prize (NIV) and not disqualified for the gift of eternal life. In context, Paul has been discussing preaching the gospel. 1 Corinthians 9:16 - For when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, since I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel.

In verses 24-27 he illustrates this thought of his reward by the picture of a race run for the prize. Salvation is a gift that we receive by grace through faith, (Ephesians 2:8,9) and not a prize that we race for, win and earn.

Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. That does not sound like a free gift to me. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 mentions - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved.

1 Corinthians 9:24 - "Do you not know that those who run in a race ALL run, but ONLY ONE receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it." In an Olympic race, all runners run but only one receives the gold medal. So, what happens to the runners that receive the silver medal or bronze medal or finish the race with no medal? Are they disqualified from the Olympics or for the prize?

Paul says in (Heb. 3:14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; You must believe in what you are doing that’s what faith is, you most be confident unto the end. You must keep God’s law until death or until the coming of the Lord, if you expect salvation.

 

[nedsk]

Here he is after realizing I'm not falling for it.

He just can't get over it!

View attachment 65236

I've never seen someone so proud of being so wrong as you. You might as well embrace it.

 

[mailmandan]

Paul says in (Heb. 3:14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; You must believe in what you are doing that’s what faith is, you most be confident unto the end. You must keep God’s law until death or until the coming of the Lord, if you expect salvation.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become (future indicative) partakers of Christ if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers of Christ and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as having become partakers of Christ will have been those who held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end.

Now what about those faltering Hebrews who begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty but then later depart? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion. You must believe to the saving of the soul and not draw back to perdition (Hebrews 10:39) if you expect salvation.

 

[Kokyu]

You reading from another Bible, but Also Paul says in Colossians 1: 23 if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

So what happen if you do not continue in the faith, because you are not grounded and your hope of the gospel is not strong. A person might give up. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

What is God's standard for His acceptance of us? How good do we have to be in order to be accepted by God? Jesus stated that we must be perfect as God is perfect (Matt. 5:48). None of us can meet that standard, however. See Romans 3:10, 23; 5:6-11; Ephesians 2:1-3; Titus 3:3, etc. And so, Jesus is perfect for us, meeting God's standard on our behalf, and paying the penalty of our sin, also. Without Jesus as our Mediator (1 Ti. 2:5), without him being the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), we have no hope of ever being accepted by God as "joint-heirs with Christ" (Ro. 8:17).

For those who, by faith in Jesus as their Savior and submission to him as their Lord (Ro. 10:9-10) have "put on Christ" (Ro. 13:14; Ga. 3:27), God's standard for acceptance is met. God, the Father is always eternally accepting of God, the Son and so those in the Son (2 Co. 5:17) are also always accepted by God (Eph. 1:1-13). This is the sole basis upon which God accepts any human being. No other basis is perfect as Jesus is perfect and so, no other basis will do; not our works, not our faithfulness, not our sacrifice, only the redemption, justification and sanctification given to us helpless sinners in Jesus (1 Co. 1:30; Eph. 2:8-9; 2 Ti. 1:9; Ti. 3:5).

In light of these things, how ought I to understand the passage above from Paul's letter to believers at Colosse? Can he be saying that I can lose my salvation? How so, if God accepts me only because I am "in Christ"? God tells me repeatedly in His word that my works have nothing whatever to do with my being saved by Him. He makes it crystal clear that in-and-of myself I have nothing to offer Him that He will accept. There is only one Savior and I ain't him (John 14:6; Ac. 4:12). And his salvation of me must be perfect or it won't meet God's standard. I don't even know what perfection actually is, and I certainly can't be perfect, so what is it I think I can contribute to Christ's salvation of me that God would accept? Well, nothing. Not one thing. So why on earth do I think I can do anything to keep my salvation? I could do nothing to be saved but receive salvation and there is nothing I can do once saved but continue to receive from God His life and work in me.

So, then, what is Paul saying in the passage above? Well, he's actually very clear: If I don't become firmly established in the faith and steadfast in it, Christ cannot present me to God at the Final Judgment "holy and blameless and beyond reproach." Without a settled, unmoving faith in the Gospel and in God's Truth, I will inevitably get caught up in sin. The carnal "infants in Christ" who were the Corinthian believers are a good example (1 Co. 3, 5, 6, 11). The five bad churches of Revelation 2-3, particularly Sardis and Laodicea, also demonstrate what Paul wrote to the Colossians. The believers in Galatia illustrate this as well (Ga. 3:3). These were all born-again brethren who were not steadfast in the faith and so, were mired in carnality, spiritual apathy and legalistic law-keeping. But they were all of them still "temples of the Holy Spirit," "brethren," and "in Christ."

What Paul doesn't say in the Colossians 1 passage above is that a saved person can become unsaved, that, having been saved by Christ, they have the power to undo his saving work. This sort of view of his words is not extracted from what he wrote but forced into them.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

God gave you people a brain for thinking

And those that use their brain get born again and are led by the True Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ which is why the don't become catholics.

You might as well embrace it

I embrace the Word of God in it's entirety which is why I could never be a catholic because to do so would require that I consider portions of what God said to be lies, and sorry bro man, no can do.

So get over yourself and move on! Believe it or not people have the right to disagree with you!

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. Once a person is saved, they have this ability. Read Romans 6:1-11.

You're going to have to post the scripture if we're going to have a serious conversation.
I don't have the NT memorized so I don't know what Romans 6:1-11 states unless you post it.

So, again, are you stating that once a person is saved, he can either choose to obey Jesus and do good works OR not obey Jesus?
THIS sounds like what you said in the post to which I'm responding.

Again,,,here is what you posted in no. 343, to which I was responding:

"And so, Paul has many places in his letters where he explains the spiritual reality in which Christians are as adopted children of God so that they act properly in resistance of the old, carnal nature under which they once lived in bondage (and may still, if they so choose)."

Please correct me if I don't understand but the above SOUNDS LIKE you're saying that a born again person should act properly in resisting the old, caarnal nature in which they once lived....AND MAY STILL IF THEY SO CHOOSE.

I really would like to clarify this.

IOW,,, it sounds like you're stating that, if we so choose, we could still live under the old carnal nature.

That's not, of course, how Christians usually frame their sin, but this what they are doing when they choose to follow the direction of the old, carnal Self.

Excuse me, but you're saying it again.
HOW can a Christian choose to follow the direction of the old carnal self??

I "like" it? Where did I write such a thing? Nowhere.

YOU posted Romans 7:14-22 so you must like what it states.
I asked you what you believe it states,
to which you have not replied.

??? Obviously not. Read Romans 8:1-16. Why are you trying to frame my position in such bizarre and unwarranted ways?

I asked you to explain Galatians 5:17...to which you have not replied.

??? I've not misunderstood Paul. But you certainly seem eager to think I have - though I've given you no good cause to do so. Why is that?

Maybe you should explain WHY you have not misunderstood Paul?

Simply read what Paul wrote. His language in the verse is not at all difficult to comprehend.

Apparently Paul's language is difficult to understand if you think it means something different from what I think it means.

You mean Peter, not Paul. The Scripture quotation above is from 2 Peter about Paul, in part, but the section you highlighted contains Peter's words, not Paul's. Maybe his words are difficult for you to understand because you think it's Paul speaking when, in fact, it's Peter.

I know they contain Peter's words K.
I was making the point that Paul is difficult to understand.

And this conversation is going nowhere.

I assume you think "fall from steadfastness" means "fall from salvation." But, as you've pointed out, Scripture says what it means and means what is says. And so, when Peter wrote "from steadfastness," not "from salvation," that's exactly what he meant. Why are you altering his words (if this is how you're understanding what he wrote)?

Paul tells us to stand fast in our faith.

I'll post the scripture again...perhaps you could concentrate on Paul stating that we must hold fast TO OUR FAITH.


Colossians 1:21-23
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.


Paul states that we will be presented holy and blameless before God
IF we CONTINUE IN THE FAITH....

IOW,,,we must CONTINUE IN THE FAITH IF we're going to be saved.
IF we DO NOT CONTINUE IN THE FAITH we will NOT be saved.

How would God present anyone blameless and above reproach if they depart from the faith?

Because K,,,if one departs from the faith he is no longer ABIDING in Christ.
Abiding in Christ is necessary for one to be saved.

John 15:6 Jesus said
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

2 John 1:9
9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

The mere act of departing is sin. But how does not being presented to God holy and blameless equate to salvation lost? Paul never wrote "If you don't continue in the faith you will lose your salvation."

Jesus said this, I quoted John 15:6 above.
John stated this in 2 John 1:9

Paul also stated this in Colossians 1:21-23, also above.

This is a construction you're putting upon his words derived, not from what he actually wrote but from your salvation-lost presupposition that you're imposing on his words.

I just post scripture.
It's plainly written and easy to understand.

In contrast, all I have to do is understand Paul's words as they're given and when I do, I don't arrive at a threat of salvation lost but a warning of standing before God not holy, blameless and above reproach. These are two very different states-of-affairs.

What do you mean by standing before God not holy?
Paul said we must be blameless AND holy when we stand before God.

Colossians 1:22
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -

As some do, I could, alternatively, simply understand that Paul was writing of the false convert who because he is not truly saved departs the faith, like those of whom the apostle John wrote:

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

That's a favorite verse of those that believe in OSAS...
unfortunately it does not mean what you believe it means.
Don't take my word for it...look it up.

There were some gnostics that had entered into Jesus' groupl.
They were never Christian or followers of Jesus.

IF we want to be followers of Jesus, we must obey Jesus.

No one who is genuinely saved would depart the faith and so, those who do reveal they "were not really of us" though they had perhaps participated for a time in life and work of the Church.

Paul admonishes to REMAIN IN THE FAITH.
REMAIN IN THE FAITH
means the persons he's addressing were IN THE FAITH.

He warned against FALLING AWAY FROM THE FAITH:

Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

In order to fall away from faith...
you must HAVE faith.

So, then, a saved-and-lost interpretation of Paul's words in Colossians 1:21-23 is by no means the only possible one - and it certainly isn't the most reasonable one, either.

Then you'll have to explain what Colossians 1:21-23 means if you don't accept the plain and simple meaning.

 

[GodsGrace]

This observation by no means counters what I wrote. Not even close.

To "abide in Christ" is to be saved. One cannot be saved and not abide in him, after all. And neither verse 2 nor verse 6 of John 15 actually refer to a saved person who has lost their salvation. I've already addressed this passage earlier in this thread, so I won't do so again here.



I don't see any "And so you will lose your salvation if you're like this irritating fig tree" in this passage... But, then, I'm not wearing "lose your salvation" lenses as I read it.

What lens?
I just post scripture.

The fig tree will be cut down IF it DOES NOT bear fruit.
The branch will be CUT OFF if it does NOT bear fruit.

Let's see:

John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


It states that every branch IN JESUS (that means the person is saved) that DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT will be TAKEN AWAY.

Every person that is saved and does not bear fruit will be CUT OFF,,,TAKEN AWAY,,,,

Does this sound like that person remains saved??
Not according to Jesus.

Nope. All caps aren't a valid argument. Neither is flat contradiction.

I use caps a lot for emphasis.
Then I post scripture.

Is this all that Paul wrote in the chapter? Not at all. Here's some more of his words:

Romans 2:1-13
1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Who's in view in the above passage? Paul describes the person he has in mind in verses 1 and 3: The one who passes judgment on another for that of which they are themselves guilty. This person is also stubborn and unrepentant (vs. 5). Is Paul speaking of a Christian? He doesn't say this, but he does describe someone acting in a very un-Christian way. He then goes on to describe a very Old Covenant dynamic between God and His creatures (vs. 6-13). This doesn't seem to bear out the idea that the verses you proof-texted apply to Christians. And this is confirmed as Paul goes on in the chapter:

This is who Paul is speaking to in the first chapters of Romans:
Romans 1:7
7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


Paul was sent to preach to the Gentiles.
Acts 22:21
21 ‘Go,’ the Lord said to me, ‘for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’”

THIS is what Paul taught in Romans 2, which YOU have posted.

Paul is teaching the Gentiles what God expects from them.
1. Do not pass judgment on each other.
2. We will not escape the judgement of God.
3. Do not think lightly of God's grace.
4. Do not have a stubborn and unrepentent heart.
5. God will render to each according to his deeds.
6. To those who persevere in doing good...eternal life.
7. To those who do not obey the truth, wrath.
8. Glory and honor to all who do good.
9. Not the hearers of the law will be justified, but the doers of the law.


Please pay attention to items 5 to 9.
5. God will render to each according to his deeds.

6. To those who persevere in doing good...eternal life.

7. To those who do not obey the truth, wrath.

8. Glory and honor to all who do good.

9. Not the hearers of the law will be justified, but the doers of the law.

Romans 2:17-24
17 But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God,
18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law,
19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,
21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
24 For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.

Paul is scolding the Jews in the crowd.
He is telling them that they must not steal, if they teach not to steal.
They should not commit adultery, if they teach that it's wrong.
If they break the law, they are dishonoring God.

IOW,,,,both Gentiles and Jews must obey God....
There is no partiality with God
Romans 2:11

At this point it should be clear that Paul is not addressing Christians and that from the start of the chapter this has been the case. He's been speaking to the hypocritical Jew who is relying upon the Mosaic Law and his keeping of it to enter God's kingdom. They teach the law but don't keep it, bringing God's name into disrepute among the Gentiles. It is to these law-keeping Jews that Paul wrote that God would judge them according to the Old Covenant standard (vs. 6) under which they were still operating (hypocritically).

Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Here, Paul describes the New Covenant way of pleasing God: being "circumcised" of heart by the Spirit, not by the letter (of God's command) which he made much of in his epistle to the believers in Galatia:

Agreed.
Paul does go from one to the other...
but he is basically addressing Gentiles until about chapter 8 or 9.

Galatians 3:3
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Galatians 5:1-5
1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

So, if you had properly understood Paul in Romans 2, you would not have misrepresented his words in verse 6, inappropriately applying to Christians what was meant for hypocritical Jews acting as though they were still under Old Covenant law-keeping.

Here we go again K.

So you're saying that Paul was addressing Jews when he stated that God will render to each person according to his deeds in
Romans 2:6 ?? So Gentiles are exempt from pleasing God?

Is Jesus also wrong when HE stated.

John 5:28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

 

[GodsGrace]

My views on OSAS fall more into the category of eternal security of the believer (Ephesians 1:13-14) or preservation of the saints. (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) OSAS type of thinking does not lead me to embrace licentiousness/a license for immorality. I only believe in OSAS IF we are truly saved/born again to begin with. I believe in eternal security of the believer, but I don't believe in eternal presumption. I know what NOSAS type of thinking brings to.

What does NOSAS type of thinking bring to?
We know what type of thinking OSAS brings to....you've seen it, I'm sure, but you refuse to acknowledge it.
It brings to statements like this:
We obey if we want to.
We can sin and still be saved.
We can BLASPHEME God and still be saved.
Nothing can separate us from God.
We can choose to obey or choose not to obey.


Preservation of the saints is the P in TULIP.
I don't think you're calvinist in theology, so why bring that up?
If you believe you have free will, then why would you lose that free will after salvation?

IF we abide in Christ,,,we are saved.
IF we do not abide in Christ,,,we are not saved.

John said:

1 John 2:28
And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming.

1 John 2:24
Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.

1 John 2:6
Whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.




Jesus said:

John 15:10
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.


John 8:31
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,

In many cases salvation by works/works righteousness (particularly type 2 works salvation). I have found that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works/works righteousness strongly oppose OSAS which remains a major red flag for me. With that being said and to be fair, not everyone in the NOSAS camp subscribes to salvation by works/works righteousness.

As you must surely know...
we cannot be saved by our good works.
We are saved by God's grace...
through our faith.

But we are saved for good works,,,Ehesians 2:10 created for good works.

And we are told to obey God through the teachings of Jesus.
Jesus' teachings include good works.
Jesus Himself has stated that we will be judged by our good deeds.

John 5.28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Now although Christians are not sinless 100% of the time (1 John 1:8-10) no one who is born of God practices sin. (1 John 3:9) Those who practice such sins in Galatians 5:21 demonstrate they are not born of God. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, we see a similar list of sins practiced and notice that Paul explains that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. In contrast with the righteous in verse 11 - And such were (past tense) some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. *Hermeneutics.

You're copying and pasting.
I'm not talking about sinning.
No one is sinless this is why we're told what to do about sin in the NT.
Confess it and God is merciful and will forgive everyone their sins if they confess them.

I do have to admit that not obeying Jesus is a sin.
So do you agree that if we do not obey Jesus we ARE sinning?

Do you believe that Jesus taught believers to do good works?

So if we do NOT do good works...are we sinning?

Looks like you're more of a legalist than you accuse me of being.

In regard to Colossians 1:21-23, notice in verse 23 - if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard. Continuing in the faith demonstrates that faith was firmly rooted and established from the start.

Where does it state this?
Why do you add to scripture?

Colossians 1:21-23 states that we are to continue in the faith.
That's ALL it states.

If Paul teaches that we are to CONTINUE in the faith...
it means we can fall away from the faith.

Romans 11:19-22
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited *, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Paul states above that it's possible to fall away.
To those that fall away.....severity.

To others kindness...
IF they CONTINUE in God's kindness....

otherwise they TOO will be CUT OFF.

That is, continuance would confirm that the person's faith is firmly established in the hope of the gospel, and they really have been reconciled. The form of this phrase indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed, yet what about "nominal" Christians/make believers whose shallow, temporary belief withers away and does not continue?

The verses above are very clear.
They cannot be changed in meaning.
Tampering with the words is not allowed according to John. - Revelation - do not add to scripture.

It's only natural that Paul would speak this way because he is addressing large groups of people who "profess" to be Christians, without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance of salvation when in fact they may not be saved? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers who have been reconciled. But those who do not continue show that their shallow, temporary belief was not rooted, established and grounded in the gospel to begin with.

Provide scripture for what you state above.
What you state is nowhere to be found in the NT.

Paul states what he means and we should not be twisting his words to make them mean what we THINK they mean.

Just like in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrate that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe unto salvation).

Believe in vain....to believe in a manner that does not produce anything.
I think we could agree.

However, Paul STILL states that we are saved IF WE HOLD FAST the word he preached....

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

However, Paul STILL states that we are saved IF WE HOLD FAST the word he preached....

That's correct as Paul got that from the Lord thru the Holy Spirit.

But the eternal security crowd continues to falsely teach that it's not possible to lose salvation even for those that fall away from the Lord and go back to living in sin. They are sin friendly ya known and like to keep the door open to do a little sin on the weekends!

 

[GodsGrace]

That's correct as Paul got that from the Lord thru the Holy Spirit.

But the eternal security crowd continues to falsely teach that it's not possible to lose salvation even for those that fall away from the Lord and go back to living in sin. They are sin friendly ya known and like to keep the door open to do a little sin on the weekends!

I dislike that this would be the reason.
I know some on here for many years and they most probably are obeying Christians.
I don't understand why this OSAS is so important when all the writers are obviously teaching against it and giving warnings.
Why have warnings for something that cannot happen?!

 

[bro.tan]

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

What is God's standard for His acceptance of us? How good do we have to be in order to be accepted by God? Jesus stated that we must be perfect as God is perfect (Matt. 5:48). None of us can meet that standard, however. See Romans 3:10, 23; 5:6-11; Ephesians 2:1-3; Titus 3:3, etc. And so, Jesus is perfect for us, meeting God's standard on our behalf, and paying the penalty of our sin, also. Without Jesus as our Mediator (1 Ti. 2:5), without him being the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), we have no hope of ever being accepted by God as "joint-heirs with Christ" (Ro. 8:17).

For those who, by faith in Jesus as their Savior and submission to him as their Lord (Ro. 10:9-10) have "put on Christ" (Ro. 13:14; Ga. 3:27), God's standard for acceptance is met. God, the Father is always eternally accepting of God, the Son and so those in the Son (2 Co. 5:17) are also always accepted by God (Eph. 1:1-13). This is the sole basis upon which God accepts any human being. No other basis is perfect as Jesus is perfect and so, no other basis will do; not our works, not our faithfulness, not our sacrifice, only the redemption, justification and sanctification given to us helpless sinners in Jesus (1 Co. 1:30; Eph. 2:8-9; 2 Ti. 1:9; Ti. 3:5).

In light of these things, how ought I to understand the passage above from Paul's letter to believers at Colosse? Can he be saying that I can lose my salvation? How so, if God accepts me only because I am "in Christ"? God tells me repeatedly in His word that my works have nothing whatever to do with my being saved by Him. He makes it crystal clear that in-and-of myself I have nothing to offer Him that He will accept. There is only one Savior and I ain't him (John 14:6; Ac. 4:12). And his salvation of me must be perfect or it won't meet God's standard. I don't even know what perfection actually is, and I certainly can't be perfect, so what is it I think I can contribute to Christ's salvation of me that God would accept? Well, nothing. Not one thing. So why on earth do I think I can do anything to keep my salvation? I could do nothing to be saved but receive salvation and there is nothing I can do once saved but continue to receive from God His life and work in me.

So, then, what is Paul saying in the passage above? Well, he's actually very clear: If I don't become firmly established in the faith and steadfast in it, Christ cannot present me to God at the Final Judgment "holy and blameless and beyond reproach." Without a settled, unmoving faith in the Gospel and in God's Truth, I will inevitably get caught up in sin. The carnal "infants in Christ" who were the Corinthian believers are a good example (1 Co. 3, 5, 6, 11). The five bad churches of Revelation 2-3, particularly Sardis and Laodicea, also demonstrate what Paul wrote to the Colossians. The believers in Galatia illustrate this as well (Ga. 3:3). These were all born-again brethren who were not steadfast in the faith and so, were mired in carnality, spiritual apathy and legalistic law-keeping. But they were all of them still "temples of the Holy Spirit," "brethren," and "in Christ."

What Paul doesn't say in the Colossians 1 passage above is that a saved person can become unsaved, that, having been saved by Christ, they have the power to undo his saving work. This sort of view of his words is not extracted from what he wrote but forced into them.

That's not exactly what Paul was saying in Galatians 3, let's get some understanding in
(Gal. 3:1, 13, 16-17, 19, 24) (v.1) O FOOLISH Ga-la’-tians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? (v.13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, CURSED IS EVERYONE THAT HANGETH ON A TREE: What law is this talking about? Let the bible speak for itself.

(v.16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of One, AND TO THY SEED, which is Christ. (v.17) And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

To sum up what going on here in Galatians, Paul is explaining that Christ came from Abraham seed, and remove the animal Sacrificial law. But in the days of Abraham that animal Sacrificial law never was on the table, and was not needed for Abraham to obey and have faith in God. But the Commandments was always on the table.

Now pay attention, the law that is being spoken of here came four hundred and thirty years after this covenant. But God’s holy commandments have been around forever even before man was created. Remember that Satan was kicked out of heaven because iniquity (sin) was found in him. And what is sin? The transgression of the law (commandments). Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts. (1John 3:4)

(v.19) Wherefore then serveth the law? A question is being asked here. Then why should we serve this law? It was added because of transgression, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; the law that we are talking about here was added because of sin. But we now know that sin is the transgression of the law.

How do you add a law if sin is the transgression of the law? Because there are two sets of laws, you have God’s holy commandments which abided forever, and you had the animal sacrificial law which was added because of sin, but it was only good until the seed should come to whom the promise was made, and that seed was Jesus.

(v.24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. This animal sacrificial law was only a schoolmaster. (Paul breaks down more of this law in Hebrew 10th Chapter)

And this schoolmaster taught you that when you sinned in ignorance blood had to be shed (an animal sacrificed). But Christ being the ultimate sacrifice shed his precious blood once and for all, and by doing this putting an end to the animal sacrificial law.

Paul says in Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[Titus]

Yes

 

[bro.tan]

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become (future indicative) partakers of Christ if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers of Christ and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as having become partakers of Christ will have been those who held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end.

Now what about those faltering Hebrews who begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty but then later depart? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion. You must believe to the saving of the soul and not draw back to perdition (Hebrews 10:39) if you expect salvation.

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation

It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)

Paul says in Hebrew 3: 15 while it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

This rest is talking about the thousand year millennium. When Jesus make his second coming and most people who don't believe will not get into that rest.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I don't understand why this OSAS is so important when all the writers are obviously teaching against it and giving warnings.
Why have warnings for something that cannot happen?!

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

They have all been taught by men who followed the reformers who followed Augustine who could not understand Greek and twisted Paul's teachings unto his own destruction as well as others who followed his false doctrine.

Luther and Calvin both idolized Augustine who was not an actual Christian, he was a gnostic, a manichean monk (the Manicheans were a cult) who twisted God's Word badly.

If you ever want to know the original of all the false doctrine being taught in churches today, take a little time to study Augustine's beliefs and keep one hand firmly on God's Word and compare what Augustine taught to God's Word and you'll see how the catholics and the reformers were led in to darkness by following Augustine's teachings which he got from the Manicheans who were gnostics.

The whole reason Augustine "became a christian" is because the roman emperor Constantine made Christianity in to the state religion and he began repressing pagans so many of these pagans like Augustine decided to "became a christian" and brought their false doctrine with them and in doing so the true Gospel became greatly corrupted as Paul warned that it would when he left earth.

It's an interesting but very sad study but it helps to understand how so many today got deceived because the teachings of Augustine has been embedded in to what is considered to be the Gospel for centuries, so embedded that very few ever escape following false doctrine as they would be shunned and rejected by the church they attend that teaching false Augustinian doctrine either thru reformed theology or catholicism. It's really quite a mess.

As a young believer the older folks kept telling me I was to be a minister and they wanted me to go to Bible College but I ended up leaving that particular church when I moved to another town and I'm glad I did because had I taken them seriously and gone to Bible College I probably would have been indoctrinated in to calvinism and ended up going to hell!

Thank the Lord I dodged a satanic bullet on that deal!