Is it possible to lose salvation?

[nedsk]

Now that Romanism existed for only 1500 years, that we can agree on. The roman Catholic church was not born until the 500's. Before that it was simply Christians and small c catholic Christians.

Christians who believed Jesus is fully present in the Eucharist. The Catholic Church existed since day one friend. If you don't like it I'm sorry. We know nothing you believe existed before the looney little monk.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'd love for you to prove me wrong by producing your sources for your claim here; because it's hard not to conclude you are either making up claims, or else deliberately speaking falsely, about *the very text of Sacred Scripture.*

As I wrote earlier, I need to investigate and see if I can find why there is such a discrepancy. As I said, I have great trust in teh Blue letter bible so I will need to discover whay the others did not use it.

But as I said, the fact that it was used in the latte (or early depending on how you count) in the third century BC is more damning that the brothers of Jesus are actually cousins.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You have done this multiple times now, true. This is called the "Gish gallop." It's a bad-faith debate move by which the person doing it "attempts to overwhelm an opponent by presenting an excessive number of arguments, without regard for their accuracy or strength, with a rapidity that makes it impossible for the opponent to address them in the time available"; that is, the person doing it "confronts an opponent with a rapid series of specious arguments, half-truths, misrepresentations, and outright lies, making it impossible for the opponent to refute all of them within the format of the debate." We can walk through all of these points--currently, we are on the perpetual virginity--but you simply hurling out bald claims that a number of doctrines or practices are, in your view, "heretical" or "blasphemous" is unproductive and pointless. If anything, it makes you seem defensive, as if you cannot succeed on the topic at hand so you have to obfuscate by raising as many other objections as you can think of to change the subject.

Well neither you nor Bread of life have given any real evidence that married stayed a virgin. All you have provided is vague philosophical possibilities based on how things like the word "until" is used, when even a primary school student reading the scripture would know that
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.
When told that "know" means sexual relations would know that Jospeh waited until after jesus was born to have marital relations with his wife.

We will gladly stay on virginity until you tire of trying to prove philosophically instead of by real evidence.
And no I am not defensive in the least.

I do admit that my going to find greek manuscripts of the LXX is not in my wheelhouse, and now I feel I must eat crow on these. I do suspect they may have come from very anti-RCC sites. I will have to investigate this.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Well neither you nor Bread of life have given any real evidence that married stayed a virgin.

They must have lost the ancient report from Mary's gynecologist

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Oh really? So to a guy named Bob then?

Is that what Bob told you? The only church that existed was the Catholic Church for 1500 years.

No it was not the "C" catholic, but the "c" catholic. We can delve into history as to why Peter was never the Bishop of Rome, how the roman church moved its power base from Jerusalem/Antioch to Rome and how many of the Bishops ceded to the roman Bishop because it was the largest city and seat of poilitical power.

Maybe we can also speak of how the church took over the political authority when Rome fell and ruled Europe with an iron fist! Kings did not ascend without the blessing of the Pope.

 

[nedsk]

No it was not the "C" catholic, but the "c" catholic. We can delve into history as to why Peter was never the Bishop of Rome, how the roman church moved its power base from Jerusalem/Antioch to Rome and how many of the Bishops ceded to the roman Bishop because it was the largest city and seat of poilitical power.

Maybe we can also speak of how the church took over the political authority when Rome fell and ruled Europe with an iron fist! Kings did not ascend without the blessing of the Pope.

I didnt claim he was the bishop of rome. Peter was the supreme leader of the church established by Christ. There was no roman Catholic Church because the church was divided then. That didn't happen until 1054. So nice try.

Why speak to it?! It's irrelevant the topic, can you lose your salvation

 

[BreadOfLife]

IIt is the theology of Roman Catholicism.

There's no such thing as "Romanism".
It's just an ignorant and derogatory term use be people who don't know any better . . .

 

[nedsk]

There's no such thing as "Romanism".
It's just an ignorant and derogatory term use be people who don't know any better . . .

This is exactly right and then they have the nerve to be offended when they think someone is derogatory toward them.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Well neither you nor Bread of life have given any real evidence that married stayed a virgin. All you have provided is vague philosophical possibilities based on how things like the word "until" is used, when even a primary school student reading the scripture would know that
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.
When told that "know" means sexual relations would know that Jospeh waited until after jesus was born to have marital relations with his wife.

We will gladly stay on virginity until you tire of trying to prove philosophically instead of by real evidence.
And no I am not defensive in the least.

I do admit that my going to find greek manuscripts of the LXX is not in my wheelhouse, and now I feel I must eat crow on these. I do suspect they may have come from very anti-RCC sites. I will have to investigate this.

There is no evidence Mary remained a virgin. Mary’s first child was Jesus, as Luke 2:7 says. After Him, the Bible mentions that she had other children: four sons; James, Joses, Simon, and Judas and also some daughters (Matthew 13:55–56; Mark 6:3). These verses show that Mary was a mother to a family after Jesus. The Bible does not say she remained a virgin for her whole life; that idea comes from later church tradition, not from Scripture. So according to the Bible, Mary was the mother of Jesus and also of other children, and she shared in family life like any other mother. But scripture is clear, Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to our Lord Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why is it always the one's who promote salvation by works who are the most obsessed with this topic? It's these folks who seem to suffer from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome.

Here's why MMD....
Because OSAS is a teaching straight out of hell and makes satan be very happy.
why?
Because some believe this and may cause them to live a life not pleasing to God...
because it may cause them to STRAY.

And because it teaches that whether or not we do good works is not important because Jesus has "already done it all".

Jesus has not DONE IT ALL....
we have our part. Paul went so far as to state that he wants to participate in the sacrifice of Jesus.

Jesus said that if we want to follow Him, we need to pick up our cross daily.
There is NO CROSS in the OSAS belief system.

Some of the most unkind persons that post are those that believe OSAS (not you).
Why?
Because behavior is not important to them.
Because some state that our good works, demanded by Jesus, are like filthy rags to Him.

In regard to James 5:19-20, notice - Brethren, if anyone "among" you wanders from the truth..turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the Brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us..

IF this person was a genuine believer, yet how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died". In 1 Peter 3:20 "... God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning, physical death) through the water" by the ark. (Hebrews 11:7) "Soul" is rendered from the Greek word "psuche" and is also translated as "life".

You explain everything away,
but scripture is very clear.

What is a non-believer wandering from Dan?
BRETHREN if one of you wanders.....
And the person is BROUGHT BACK.....
BROUGHT BACK Dan...
NOT brought to.

BROUGHT BACK means the person belonged...
then left...
then perhaps belonged again.

Your explanations always fail because they are not in keeping with what the NT teaches.

Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins." Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.

Wonderful.

You've just proven that FAITH ALONE is not sufficient.

If we need LOVE,
then faith alone fails.

Love fulfills the law.
So faith is not sufficient.

We need faith AND love.

Romans 13:8-10
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

The above from the very man that you claim taught FAITH ONLY.

So is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death. (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16)

Again...
a wanderer FROM WHAT?

And what is a genuine faith anyway?
Faith is faith.
A person either has faith or they do not.

You're playing games with the souls of persons.

 

[GodsGrace]

You say people promote salvation by works, it is not the case, did you ever read James??

IF you read Jesus in the synoptic gospel you would see that he constantly asked people to stop sinning! repentance was with the Kingdom of Heaven. Can you once saved continue to sin? Do you not know it is a requirement to enter Heaven? it is simple jesus said if you love me Follow the commandments, yes it requires action on your part, like foe example t be considerate towards one another like Jesus asked is to love one another as have loved you
Why do you deny what was clearly explained to remain faithful to Christ and follow him until the end? If anyone continues to sin, knowing full well they do so will they be granted access to heaven , ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Repent ! You teach false doctrine here and before accusing others that DO follow the words of Christ, look at yourself in the mirror, are you so good that you will make it to Heaven? Jesus was clear many are called but few will make it. Remember it is by the words of Christ that all shall be judged.

No need to reply because I will not

All Jesus spoke about and taught was our BEHAVIOR and how we are to follow and how we are to ACT upon His words.

And some want to call this a works based salvation.

Kind of like being called a racist.
Well, that card doesn't work well with me.

If we want to call what JESUS taught a works based salvation
SO BE IT!

 

[GodsGrace]

No it was not the "C" catholic, but the "c" catholic. We can delve into history as to why Peter was never the Bishop of Rome, how the roman church moved its power base from Jerusalem/Antioch to Rome and how many of the Bishops ceded to the roman Bishop because it was the largest city and seat of poilitical power.

Maybe we can also speak of how the church took over the political authority when Rome fell and ruled Europe with an iron fist! Kings did not ascend without the blessing of the Pope.

Know what's sad RN?
The fact that Protestants REFUSE to learn any church history.
It's truly saddening and shows no interest in what happened after the Apostles died.

Do you believe there was a hierarchy in the early church?

Was Peter in Rome teaching the Christian faith?
Do you suppose he taught others this new faith?

What about John?
Did HE teach anyone the new faith?

Whether you like it or not RN...there is a succession in the church....
the first church is the Catholic Church. It goes all the way back to the beginning.

And what makes you think it began in the 500's is a mystery to me.

Quit saying silly things and do some studying before making such comments.
Seriously.

 

[BreadOfLife]

There is no evidence Mary remained a virgin. Mary’s first child was Jesus, as Luke 2:7 says. After Him, the Bible mentions that she had other children: four sons; James, Joses, Simon, and Judas and also some daughters (Matthew 13:55–56; Mark 6:3). These verses show that Mary was a mother to a family after Jesus. The Bible does not say she remained a virgin for her whole life; that idea comes from later church tradition, not from Scripture. So according to the Bible, Mary was the mother of Jesus and also of other children, and she shared in family life like any other mother. But scripture is clear, Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to our Lord Jesus.

On the contrary - -there is no evidence that Mary had any other children.

Luke 2:7 says that Mary gave birth to her “Firstborn”.
In Jewish culture, the term “firstborn” simply means, “he who opens the womb”. It does NOT imply that there are other children.

Matt. 13:55-56 & Mark 6:30 mention a few Adelphoi of Jesus – but NOWHERE are they called children of Mary.

The Greek word, “adelphos” is used for brother, half-brother, cousin, relative, fellow-believer, fellow countryman, etc. In fact, in the New Testament, “Adelphos(oi)” is used a total of 344 times and only 41 times (12%) is it used for a sibling.

For example, Acts 1:15 mentions the 120 adelphoi (fellow believers) present when choosing a replacement for Judas. Here are 3 further examples from the Greek Septuagint:

-In Gen. 14:14, Lot is called Abraham’s "brother", even though he was Abraham’s nephew (Gen. 11:26–28).

- In Gen. 29:15, Jacob is referred to as the "brother" of his uncle Laban.

- Brothers Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar’s daughters married their "brethren”, the sons of Kish - who were actually their cousins (1 Chr. 23:21–22).

Mary's Perpetual Virginity was believed for the first 1500 years of the Church - and was a belief shared by the Protestant Fathers. The idea that Mary had other children is extremely shaky, at best . . .

 

[nedsk]

On the contrary - -there is no evidence that Mary had any other children.

Luke 2:7 says that Mary gave birth to her “Firstborn”.
In Jewish culture, the term “firstborn” simply means, “he who opens the womb”. It does NOT imply that there are other children.

Matt. 13:55-56 & Mark 6:30 mention a few Adelphoi of Jesus – but NOWHERE are they called children of Mary.

The Greek word, “adelphos” is used for brother, half-brother, cousin, relative, fellow-believer, fellow countryman, etc. In fact, in the New Testament, “Adelphos(oi)” is used a total of 344 times and only 41 times (12%) is it used for a sibling.

For example, Acts 1:15 mentions the 120 adelphoi (fellow believers) present when choosing a replacement for Judas. Here are 3 further examples from the Greek Septuagint:

-In Gen. 14:14, Lot is called Abraham’s "brother", even though he was Abraham’s nephew (Gen. 11:26–28).

- In Gen. 29:15, Jacob is referred to as the "brother" of his uncle Laban.

- Brothers Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar’s daughters married their "brethren”, the sons of Kish - who were actually their cousins (1 Chr. 23:21–22).

Mary's Perpetual Virginity was believed for the first 1500 years of the Church - and was a belief shared by the Protestant Fathers. The idea that Mary had other children is extremely shaky, at best . . .

I have a friend I call brother all the time. And he says the same to me. My college roommates are like brothers to me. They're closer to me than my biological brother was.

 

[LoveYeshua]

All Jesus spoke about and taught was our BEHAVIOR and how we are to follow and how we are to ACT upon His words.

And some want to call this a works based salvation.

Kind of like being called a racist.
Well, that card doesn't work well with me.

If we want to call what JESUS taught a works based salvation
SO BE IT!

I agree with you certainly, Jesus did tell us to follow him, that includes works, many think and teach that only faith and belief saves you , they are in error it is not just belief but they stick to single verses to male their point and forget the rest of the words of out Lord Jesus. Jesus was clear ,to keep the commandments if we love him. Obedience is also required all is linked together, belief, faith obedience and works in that order I believe. Some do not understand that but prefer the easy way, Jesus did tell us his way is not easy and it is not. I like the strength you have and your integrity always keeping the truth of the scripture. We as disciples since we do follow Christ can Only tell the truth as it is and we do. But many do not want to change it even I could say they cannot change. The lord tells us to tell them the truth but it if they do not receive Jesus words that we explain here then we must let them Go. You will know who they are as the keep preaching false doctrine and tell us true believers, followinf scripture that we are wrong even if we show them proper scripture in the proper context and take months or year to explain properly they refuse to change, for these we have to let them go because they take an incredible amount of our precious time to reply to and it leads nowhere. Time is short and we must continue for those who are willing to listen, time is short and I have no time to waste anymore with some on this thread. Please continue the good work you do and lets comtinue our work;

In Matthew 9:37–38 (NKJV) Jesus told His disciples:

“The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.”

A good option to consider and that is what I am doing now is to wrote new threads based on false doctrine or biblical texts people do not understand fully. For me It is the way to go for now.

Triple Blessings to you sister.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have a friend I call brother all the time. And he says the same to me. My college roommates are like brothers to me. They're closer to me than my biological brother was.

nedsk
I dislike getting involved in this because a case could be made for either.
My personal belief is that, most probably, the other children might have been Joseph's.
Not enough info in the EC although Mary was absolutely very revered.
And, yes, some did believe she had no other children.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No it was not the "C" catholic, but the "c" catholic. We can delve into history as to why Peter was never the Bishop of Rome, how the roman church moved its power base from Jerusalem/Antioch to Rome and how many of the Bishops ceded to the roman Bishop because it was the largest city and seat of poilitical power.

NOT according to some of the earliest Church documents.

Ignatius of Antioch - a student of the Apostle John and a FIRST century Bishop wrote in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans:
Ignatius of Antioch
"Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Let’s see . . .
“Follow your bishop"
“Obey your clergy”
“sole Eucharist"

Gee - WHAT Church today does that sound like??

A few years later, in The Martyrdom of Polycarp, the term, "Catholic Church" is used as a TITLE, and not just a description:

“When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world – the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ass, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath.”

The words, καθ ολης (katah-holos) is GREEK for “according to the whole” and “universal”.

The phrase in The Martyrdom of Polycarp - which, by the way, is ALSO written in GREEK - would be horribly redundant, if not comical. It would go something like this:
"... and the whole whole throughout Church throughout the world ..."

No - it's ALWAYS been the "Catholic Church . . .

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree with you certainly, Jesus did tell us to follow him, that includes works, many think and teach that only faith and belief saves you , they are in error it is not just belief but they stick to single verses to male their point and forget the rest of the words of out Lord Jesus. Jesus was clear ,to keep the commandments if we love him. Obedience is also required all is linked together, belief, faith obedience and works in that order I believe. Some do not understand that but prefer the easy way, Jesus did tell us his way is not easy and it is not. I like the strength you have and your integrity always keeping the truth of the scripture. We as disciples since we do follow Christ can Only tell the truth as it is and we do. But many do not want to change it even I could say they cannot change. The lord tells us to tell them the truth but it if they do not receive Jesus words that we explain here then we must let them Go. You will know who they are as the keep preaching false doctrine and tell us true believers, followinf scripture that we are wrong even if we show them proper scripture in the proper context and take months or year to explain properly they refuse to change, for these we have to let them go because they take an incredible amount of our precious time to reply to and it leads nowhere. Time is short and we must continue for those who are willing to listen, time is short and I have no time to waste anymore with some on this thread. Please continue the good work you do and lets comtinue our work;

In Matthew 9:37–38 (NKJV) Jesus told His disciples:




A good option to consider and that is what I am doing now is to wrote new threads based on false doctrine or biblical texts people do not understand fully. For me It is the way to go for now.

Triple Blessings to you sister.

Your method is very good...it does require a lot of time that I don't have.
So keep those new threads coming! I'll look for them too.

We have to remember that we are not going to change the minds of those that have been brainwashed into new and incorrect teachings.

The reason I post is for those reading along....there are many that read what we post that never reply to it.
You should never feel like it's a waste of time,
Posting verses simply, without paragraphs of trying to explain them away, makes it clear what Jesus wanted.
I also like to post what HE stated even more than what Paul states...although I see no difference in what they taught.
They taught belief, faith, and behavior - just as you've said.

Onward Christian soldier!

 

[LoveYeshua]

On the contrary - -there is no evidence that Mary had any other children.

Luke 2:7 says that Mary gave birth to her “Firstborn”.
In Jewish culture, the term “firstborn” simply means, “he who opens the womb”. It does NOT imply that there are other children.

Matt. 13:55-56 & Mark 6:30 mention a few Adelphoi of Jesus – but NOWHERE are they called children of Mary.

The Greek word, “adelphos” is used for brother, half-brother, cousin, relative, fellow-believer, fellow countryman, etc. In fact, in the New Testament, “Adelphos(oi)” is used a total of 344 times and only 41 times (12%) is it used for a sibling.

For example, Acts 1:15 mentions the 120 adelphoi (fellow believers) present when choosing a replacement for Judas. Here are 3 further examples from the Greek Septuagint:

-In Gen. 14:14, Lot is called Abraham’s "brother", even though he was Abraham’s nephew (Gen. 11:26–28).

- In Gen. 29:15, Jacob is referred to as the "brother" of his uncle Laban.

- Brothers Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar’s daughters married their "brethren”, the sons of Kish - who were actually their cousins (1 Chr. 23:21–22).

Mary's Perpetual Virginity was believed for the first 1500 years of the Church - and was a belief shared by the Protestant Fathers. The idea that Mary had other children is extremely shaky, at best . . .

I am aware of what you say brother, one day, very soon, all of us will know the truth.

Blessings.

 

[mailmandan]

Here's why MMD....
Because OSAS is a teaching straight out of hell and makes satan be very happy.
why?
Because some believe this and may cause them to live a life not pleasing to God...
because it may cause them to STRAY.

And because it teaches that whether or not we do good works is not important because Jesus has "already done it all".

Jesus has not DONE IT ALL....
we have our part. Paul went so far as to state that he wants to participate in the sacrifice of Jesus.

Jesus said that if we want to follow Him, we need to pick up our cross daily.
There is NO CROSS in the OSAS belief system.

Some of the most unkind persons that post are those that believe OSAS (not you).
Why?
Because behavior is not important to them.
Because some state that our good works, demanded by Jesus, are like filthy rags to Him.

You explain everything away,
but scripture is very clear.

What is a non-believer wandering from Dan?
BRETHREN if one of you wanders.....
And the person is BROUGHT BACK.....
BROUGHT BACK Dan...
NOT brought to.

BROUGHT BACK means the person belonged...
then left...
then perhaps belonged again.

Your explanations always fail because they are not in keeping with what the NT teaches.

Wonderful.

You've just proven that FAITH ALONE is not sufficient.

If we need LOVE,
then faith alone fails.

Love fulfills the law.
So faith is not sufficient.

We need faith AND love.

Romans 13:8-10
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

The above from the very man that you claim taught FAITH ONLY.

Again...
a wanderer FROM WHAT?

And what is a genuine faith anyway?
Faith is faith.
A person either has faith or they do not.

You're playing games with the souls of persons.

My explanations have not failed. You simply failed to understand. For the record, I'm not someone who attaches "a license for immortality" to OSAS which I believe you realize. OSAS is only a teaching from hell when someone attaches a license to sin with it. Just like NOSAS is a teaching from hell when someone attaches salvation by works with it.

I'm not playing games with the souls of anyone. I clearly preach the gospel (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 1:13) and not a works based false gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4) I also do not promote a license for immortality and I actually prefer the terms "eternal security of the believer" (Ephesians 1:13-14) or "preservation of the saints" (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) over the term OSAS.

Faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation does not fail. (Romans 3:24-26; 4:5-6; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). Now in regard to Romans 13:8-10, these commands are summed up in "love your neighbor as ourself." This is what we are saved FOR and not by. We are not saved by faith + our best efforts to love our neighbor as ourself, which culminates in salvation by works.