Is it the law that kills or lawlessness?

[afaithfulone4u]

Isn't it really the fact that when we become lawless people with no understanding of how to do right by God's standards, that this is what kills man?

It isn't the law itself, for the law of God is for good. But when we have been raised in a society that has drifted far from God and have lost all morals and believe that the good things are the bad, mean and evil, and the evil things are called good and acceptable by society even when they are anti(against)-Christ(The Word) that this is what brings man under subjection to more and more burdensome laws that cause us to stumble and die?

And the problem with that is that the ones who refuse to obey laws and break them are the ones who are exalting the laws up over us all, yet... the only ones who it really effects are the LAW abiding citizen's who do try to do what is lawful..... because if the lawless one of disobedience, whom the law was made for, does not change his ways and learn how to do right, he will not pay one bit of attention to the other laws either, and the only ones under the burden of them are those who obey them to begin with who didn't need the added ones piled on them.
That is what happened when God forsook His Word on the cross for us. He nailed all of those added 613 ordinances for the transgressions of the original and forever 10 written in Christ(The Stone) of the past. And He raised His Word/Son back up on the 3rd day without those other burdensome laws in our new covenant Word in Christ. In releasing us from them He gave us His Spirit to guide us and teach those who are tired of their old way of life being lost without God's guidance and gave us a fresh start by forgiving our sins Past so that no man could boast that God accepted them because of their goodness, and so the hardened sinner could have hope for a new way of life as well. Even keel so that we could begin to build our temple/bodies upon the Word of Truth so that we learn how to walk in Christ being built up in God's Word so He could remember our sins no more for we do not do them no more! God sent His Word to take our sins away!


When we live lives without God's Word and Spirit to guide us into all truth, our life becomes a living hell. But God exalts and keeps in perfect peace His children who have been tried and tested and have finally overcome the fleshly desires that are enmity against God and makes their paths... straight, good, and joyful with no worries.

 

[ScottAU]

It is sin that kills but sin can only kill if empowered by law. This is due to the fact that it is only via "transgression" that sin has the ability to kill.

The law teaches a man the way he ought to go and when that man willfully rebels against that which he knows he ought to go it is "sin unto death" which brings condemnation, hence the wages of sin is death. The soul that sins shall die, not only spiritual death

This is how Adam and Eve died when they ate of the forbidden fruit, they both transgressed a clear command of God.

Death reigned from Adam to Moses (before the law was given) because human beings transgressed against the light of conscience. Under Moses the sin was much worse for they had both the light of conscience and direct commands.



When we come to Christ we are to come through repentance whereby we crucify the flesh with its passions and desires and hence we walk (having been raised up by the power of God) according to the Spirit not subjecting out members to unrighteousness. Thus those who suffer with Christ have ceased from sin.

Not perfection as in never making a mistake, but heart purity whereby there is no guile and thus the rebellion to God has ceased.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

It is sin that kills but sin can only kill if empowered by law. This is due to the fact that it is only via "transgression" that sin has the ability to kill.

The law teaches a man the way he ought to go and when that man willfully rebels against that which he knows he ought to go it is "sin unto death" which brings condemnation, hence the wages of sin is death. The soul that sins shall die, not only spiritual death

This is how Adam and Eve died when they ate of the forbidden fruit, they both transgressed a clear command of God.

Death reigned from Adam to Moses (before the law was given) because human beings transgressed against the light of conscience. Under Moses the sin was much worse for they had both the light of conscience and direct commands.



When we come to Christ we are to come through repentance whereby we crucify the flesh with its passions and desires and hence we walk (having been raised up by the power of God) according to the Spirit not subjecting out members to unrighteousness. Thus those who suffer with Christ have ceased from sin.

Not perfection as in never making a mistake, but heart purity whereby there is no guile and thus the rebellion to God has ceased.

Right, the Spirit teaches us how to do right by God so no added laws need to be given.
Rom 13:8-10
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
KJV
For there is now NO condemnation in Christ Jesus, for those who walk after the SPIRIT and not! after their flesh man any longer to sin

 

[Harry3142]

St. Paul himself found that he had serious problems when he tried to live legalistically:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do - this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! (Romans 7:14-25a,NIV)

What St. Paul described was given an official name in the 20th century; it's called 'paradoxical intention'. And if you're a human being, it's as much a part of you as your eye color. Psychologists have even used it in their treatment of patients. Basically, it's a 'poison pill' which condemns anything we try to do to failure. There's even an old saying which describes it: "The harder you try, the faster you fail." Either what we do comes naturally, or it won't come at all. That's why the law could be identified as a schoolmaster, but never as a means of salvation:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

We will never be righteous as God measures righteousness if left to our own devices. But instead of 'writing us off', God himself accomplished what we could not by acquiring our righteousness through his efforts rather than ours. That's why Jesus' sacrifice is called an atoning sacrifice. It's due to the fact that through his blood shed on the cross, and his acceptance of our sins onto his head, that we can appear before God's throne cleansed of our sins, and thereby righteous.

And how do we repay him for this gift of salvation? We don't. In fact, not only has God made our salvation totally dependent on our accepting what he has done, but he has also made our proper conduct as Christians totally dependent on what he is willing to do. And that's because our code of conduct doesn't depend on a set of laws; it depends on the spiritual equivalent of a heart transplant. The motivations which have been the impetus for all that we say and do must be subdued, and new motivations implanted. Again, these are actions which we cannot accomplish, but which God himself can through his Spirit:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

'The acts of the sinful nature' are the motivations which lie at the root of all sinful acts. They are also the motivations which we are all born with. Whether we like it or not, they lie at the root of our original nature. As we grow up some of them are subdued to a certain extent, but they are still there. And just as a poisoned tree cannot yield good fruit, no word or action which has any of those motivations as its origin can be seen as righteous.

In order for what we say and do to be righteous, its origin must conform to what God wants of us. And that can only occur if the origin for our words and actions are the motivations listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit'. Just as 'the acts of the sinful nature' can be identified as the root cause of all sinful acts, 'the fruit of the Spirit' can be identified as the root cause of all truly righteous acts. That's why the words immediately following their listing are, "Against such things there is no law."

But just as we must accept our salvation as a gift, we must also accept 'the fruit of the Spirit' as a gift. We received the 'fruit' as a direct addition to obtaining our salvation, and from the same source. We did nothing to deserve either of them. We did not earn them as a salary, or purchase them as an asset. We could only accept them humbly and with a contrite heart as a free gift.

And why did God make both our salvation and our proper conduct as Christians dependent on what he can do, rather than on what we ourselves can do? By doing it in this manner God effectively 'slammed the door' on the most dangerous sin of all, namely, the sin of Pride. We cannot boast of obtaining our salvation, because we obtained it due to work which God accomplished, rather than anything we accomplished. And we cannot boast of any work which we have done on behalf of the kingdom of God, because if the motivations for our work were the proper ones, they too were a gift from God. So our salvation and our work are to be seen as to God's credit, rather than to ours.

 

[Trumpeter]

Here is how Scripture defines God’s law:

1. The Law blesses (obey) and curses (disobey).
(Deut 11:26-27)(Ps 112:1)(Ps 119:1-2)(Ps 128:1)(Prov 8:32)(Is 56:2)(Mat 5:6)(Mat 5:10)(Luke 11:28)(Jam 1:25)(1 Pe 3:14)(Rev 22:14)

2. The Law defines sin (disobey).
(Jer 44:23)(Ez 18:21)(Dan 9:11)(Ro 3:20)(Ro 7:7)(1 Jo 3:4)

3. The Law is perfect. (Ps 19:7)(Jam 1:25)

4. The Law is liberty/freedom. (Ps 119:45)(Jam 1:25, 2:12)

5. The Law is the way.
(Ex 18:20)(Deut 10:12)(Josh 22:5)(1 King 2:3)(Ps 119:1)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:3)(Mal 2:8)(Mark 12:14)(Ac 24:14)

6. The Law is the truth.
(Ps 119:142)(Mal 2:6)(Ro 2:20)(Gal 5:7)(Ps 43:2-4)(Jo 8:31-32)

7. The Law is life.
(Job 33:30)(Ps 36:9)(Prov 6:23)(Rev 22:14)

8. The Law is light.
(Job 24:13)(Job 29:3)(Ps 36:9)(Ps 43:2-4)(Ps 119:105)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:5) (Is 8:20)(Is 51:4)(2 Cor 6:14)(1 John 1:7)

9. The Law is Yeshua (Jesus), the Word made flesh.
(PERFECT+FREEDOM+WAY+TRUTH+LIFE+LIGHT= Law/Jesus).
(Ps 27:1)(Jo 1:1-14)(Jo 14:5-11)(1 Jo 1:7)

10. The Law is also for those who were once Gentiles (foreigner/alien) but now are grafted in to Israel. (Ex 12:19) (Ex 12:38) (Ex 12:49) (Lev 19:34) (Lev 24:22) (Num 9:14) (Num 15:15-16) (Num 15:29) (ie: Ruth) (Is 42:6) (Is 60:3) (Mat 5:14) (Eph 2:10-13) (Ac 13:47) (Ro 11:16-27) (Jer31:31-34) (Ez 37) (1 Jo 2:10) (1 Jo 1:7)

11. The Law is God’s instructions on how to love God, how to love others, and how to not love yourself. (Ex 20:6)(Deut 5:10)(Deut 7:10)(Deut 11:13)(Deut 11:22)(Deut 30:16)(Deut 6:5)(Lev 19:18)(Neh 1:5)(Dan 9:4)(Mat 22:35-37)(Matthew 10:39)(Mat 16:25)(Jo 14:15)(Jo 14:21)(Ro 13:9)(1 Jo 5:2-3)(2 Jo 1:6)

 

[Episkopos]

Following the letter of the law is a human effort that leads to complete failure AS WELL AS condemnation for the ensuing pride in thinking one is actually doing something good.

The law is an indicator that shows whether spiritual life is present or not. It is a gauge...like a voltmeter. To see the efficacy of using a gauge to get power from...try boosting your car with a voltmeter. That will give you the idea. Without Christ and His abiding presence...you can do nothing.

 

[williemac]

2Cor.#:6......"for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" Gal.3:21..." Is the law against the promises of God? certainly not. For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law" vs.22 .." But the scripture (law) has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe"

The law kills. It's purpose is to confine everyone under sin....Until faith should come (Gal.3:23-25). Now that it has come, we are no longer under the law. We are Sons of God through faith in Jesus (vs.26) .

The law is good and righteous. It is the measuring rod that reveals the nature of man, who is neither good, nor righteous. The law was not given to provide life to the one under it. It was given to reveal sin. And the wages of sin is death. Therefore the law was the ministry of death, not life (2Cor.3:7). But we have passed from life unto death by faith in Him, and will no longer come under the judgment of the law (John 5:24). Keeping law is not necessarily a problem. Keeping it and thinking that this is where we get our life....that is deadly! Life and righteousness are free gifts from God (Rom.5:15-18). Trying to achieve them any other way is an insult to the Spirit of grace. We have received the Spirit who is from God that we might know the things freely given by God. (1Cor.2:12)

To reply to the op, the law kills and lawlessness kills. Both are true. But under the law, if a person stumbles on any one point, he becomes guilty of all. (James2:10) This is the catch that is the key to removing one's confidence in his own effort to keep the law. If anyone will be judged by the law, he will be found guilty of all, therefore be declared to be lawless by default. There is no one who can survive the judgment of the law. The standard of the law is higher than any man's ability. Those who think that they can fulfill the law by keeping it have lowered its standard, or do not understand its standard. Furthermore, those who think that through the Holy Spirit, we can fulfill the law by keeping it, are delusional. We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the glory may be of God and not of us (2Cor.4:7). It is never to our own glory or credit that we stand before God in good standing. It is only by faith. The works that we do in Him are done after having received life. They have no participation in the receiving or retaining of life.

If anyone is doing works thinking that they are assisting in his salvation, these are dead works. They will be burned. They will not stand the test. They are not works from faith. Our motives must be purged from any self serving agenda.

The works that stand, that are works from faith, are those that bear the fruit of life rather than those that are attempting to achieve life, or retain life.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

Following the letter of the law is a human effort that leads to complete failure AS WELL AS condemnation for the ensuing pride in thinking one is actually doing something good.

The law is an indicator that shows whether spiritual life is present or not. It is a gauge...like a voltmeter. To see the efficacy of using a gauge to get power from...try boosting your car with a voltmeter. That will give you the idea. Without Christ and His abiding presence...you can do nothing.

Yes, but that is why we have been given the gift of the Spirit, the HELPER, the Teacher, to help us to overcome the lusts of the flesh.
The law in it's self being The Letter written in THE STONE/Jesus, is just The Word that changes no one who just read it or just look at him... but the Spirit teaches us how to LOVE, HONOR AND OBEY the Word from within being written upon on hearts to do them.
We in our own self without the Spirit can not keep the law of God, for the Spirit is the only one who can guide us to life by leading us to abide in THE WORD/CHRIST on the straight and narrow path. So until the Seed came and died, we did not have access to the Spirit, but now we have no excuse to walk contrary to the Word, for if we say we have the Spirit, then the fruit of righteousness will be evident, for a good tree can not grow good and evil fruit because the Spirit would not be the one leading us to sin.

John 6:64
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
KJV
Rom 8:2-10
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
KJV
Job 33:4
4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
KJV
Rev 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
KJV

2Cor.#:6......"for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" Gal.3:21..." Is the law against the promises of God? certainly not. For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law" vs.22 .." But the scripture (law) has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe"

The law kills. It's purpose is to confine everyone under sin....Until faith should come (Gal.3:23-25). Now that it has come, we are no longer under the law. We are Sons of God through faith in Jesus (vs.26) .

The law is good and righteous. It is the measuring rod that reveals the nature of man, who is neither good, nor righteous. The law was not given to provide life to the one under it. It was given to reveal sin. And the wages of sin is death. Therefore the law was the ministry of death, not life (2Cor.3:7). But we have passed from life unto death by faith in Him, and will no longer come under the judgment of the law (John 5:24). Keeping law is not necessarily a problem. Keeping it and thinking that this is where we get our life....that is deadly! Life and righteousness are free gifts from God (Rom.5:15-18). Trying to achieve them any other way is an insult to the Spirit of grace. We have received the Spirit who is from God that we might know the things freely given by God. (1Cor.2:12)

To reply to the op, the law kills and lawlessness kills. Both are true. But under the law, if a person stumbles on any one point, he becomes guilty of all. (James2:10) This is the catch that is the key to removing one's confidence in his own effort to keep the law. If anyone will be judged by the law, he will be found guilty of all, therefore be declared to be lawless by default. There is no one who can survive the judgment of the law. The standard of the law is higher than any man's ability. Those who think that they can fulfill the law by keeping it have lowered its standard, or do not understand its standard. Furthermore, those who think that through the Holy Spirit, we can fulfill the law by keeping it, are delusional. We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the glory may be of God and not of us (2Cor.4:7). It is never to our own glory or credit that we stand before God in good standing. It is only by faith. The works that we do in Him are done after having received life. They have no participation in the receiving or retaining of life.

If anyone is doing works thinking that they are assisting in his salvation, these are dead works. They will be burned. They will not stand the test. They are not works from faith. Our motives must be purged from any self serving agenda.

The works that stand, that are works from faith, are those that bear the fruit of life rather than those that are attempting to achieve life, or retain life.

williemac,
We can never be saved by trying to keep the law on our own. That is why Jesus had to come to die in our place to give us a right standing with God so that the Spirit of God could come to us. To be saved to live again is by faith in Christ yet that does not make us holy, And... if we continue to live by obeying our flesh and display the works of the flesh, we shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Look at what Paul warns us about:
Gal 5:16-21
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
KJV

 

[williemac]

williemac,
We can never be saved by trying to keep the law on our own. That is why Jesus had to come to die in our place to give us a right standing with God so that the Spirit of God could come to us. To be saved to live again is by faith in Christ yet that does not make us holy, And... if we continue to live by obeying our flesh and display the works of the flesh, we shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Look at what Paul warns us about:
Gal 5:16-21
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
KJV

Thank you for sharing this. However, scripture disagrees with your comment that by faith we are not made holy. Eph.4:24 tells us to put on the new man which was created according to God in true righteousness and holiness. It might interest you that these two are mentioned in the same sentence, indicating that they are not the same. Yet many use the word "holy" as though it is about moral behavior. It is not about that. Holiness is about purpose, not behavior. Water can be holy. Garments, food, inanimate objects, can all be holy. Thay are made holy by way of godly purpose. We are called according to His purpose. Therefore we are holy by virtue of walking in His purpose, what ever that is in each individual.

In Gal.5:16-21, Paul was speaking of the same thing in Eph.4:24. It is our flesh that lusts against our new spirit (new man). We carry both natures within us. But Paul also told the Romans in 14:17 that the kingdom of God is not food or drink, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. When a person has a sin in his life, his joy and peace will be compromised.
But as well, in John 5:24, Jesus assured us that because of our faith in Him we will not be judged. Therefore Paul was not speaking to the Galatians about believers. He was referring to they who do not have the spirit, are not in Christ, and will be judged by the law. He was simply reasoning to his listeners to not behave like they who are in the flesh and not in Christ.

I noticed you didn't bother to quote the rest of the context, which compares these works of the flesh with the fruit of the spirit. The first three mentioned happen to include joy and peace. Then the rest speak of how we treat others.

I would caution people to refrain from looking for flaws in other believers and concluding that they will not inherit everlasting life.. It so happens that a person could well be bearing much fruit, but at the same time having a sin in his life. Here is the point; While there may be both fruit and flesh in a person, the bad does not cancel out the good. I know some would prefer that to be the case, but God has more grace than we do. Where sin abounds, grace much more abounds. This is precisely because there is also good fruit. Don't think for a moment that a Christian can be without any sin in his life, (or worse, that he can be without any fruit.) Therefore we will always be dependent upon grace for our life. 2Cor.4:7 states that we have this treasure (the new spirit) in earthen vessels ( the body of flesh), so that the excellence of the glory may be of God and not of us. In so many words this is telling us that God has allowed this so that we remain humble.

Let us not fool ourselves. Paul wrote to the Galatians warning them not to attempt to be justified by the law. This is after they had been given eternal life and the Spirit. Walking in righteousness (keeping the law) does not justify us for life. He would not turn around and contradict himself by suggesting that walking in the spirit will justify them for life.