Is Jesus God Himself or God the Son?

[michaelvpardo]

Is Jesus God Himself or God the Son??


For all of those who say that Jesus is God Himself or even God The Son, you first have to ask you self, Is God Capable of telling a lie?

Hebrews 6:18 “That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:”

Now John 1:1,14 are the two verses that are utilized in establishing that Jesus is God Himself.

Paul never once said that God called Jesus God. They use Hebrews 1:8 to establish this false fact…

Show me, in the Bible, where God ever told Jesus “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”

Reading the new testament, there is no such place where God ever said that to Jesus.. David does make this statement in Psalms 45:6 when David wrote it praising God, “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.”

Back to the capable of telling a lie…

Jesus said that he could do nothing of himself, yet you claim he is “God the Son” thereby God Himself…

Jesus said that he has not come to destroy the Laws or the Prophets, yet you claim he is God Himself and call him a liar if you do not keep the commandments of God as Jesus himself makes clear when he was asked directly what must be don to inherit eternal life…

If you loved Jesus at all, and claim him to be God Himself, then you would keep his commandments. John 14:15 “If ye love me, keep my commandments.”

Jesus never once said that he came down to do his own will, yet you claim him to be God Himself. John 6:38 “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”

Jesus clearly says who God is to him and to others when he spoke to Mary after his resurrection. John 20:17 “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

Before that he made this statement explain that the one the Jews say is their God. John 8:54 “Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:”

False doctrine is false doctrine, the Bible does not teach a “Triune God anywhere in it.

I could list every single piece of scripture people use to establish Jesus as being God but, I won’t.

Before you post your scriptures make sure that they do not make Jesus nor God Himself out to be a liar.

I am sure that there will be a lot of you who will ignore what I have written, in fact I know you will. It will show in your defense of your False doctrine…

You will give me all kinds of theories of “How you believe the Bible says that Jesus is God Himself” but you will never not once Show me where the Bible explains how it is possible for God to tell a lie. Which will be ignored…

You claim that the Bible is God’s word, thereby calling God Himself a liar. John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Yet you ignore the very word of God…

Use Matthew-John to prove God is capable of telling a lie.. you cannot use You can use Peter, 1-3 John and James as well as they were with Jesus and were his disciples. Paul was not a disciple of Jesus did not walk with Jesus during his ministries on earth. And if you claim that Jesus spoke to him, Since you claim that Jesus is God Himself and that God only Speaks through Scripture, Remember Paul was on a road sleeping when he heard a voice and he looked up and seen him… Saul is commonly known as Paul… Acts 9:1-19, this tells the story of Paul’s Conversion and calling to preach…

According to the "Doctrine of the Trinity", it doesn't matter whom you refer to, you are always referring to God himself...

God is the The Father,
God is the Son,
God is the Holy Spirit.

John 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of Him that sent me."

Whose will did God Himself come down from heaven to do, if not his own?

If you say that God the Son was doing the will of God the Father, you are still saying that God Himself was still doing his own will.

If you say that the Son was doing the will of the Father, you are still saying that God Himself was doing his own will....

The explanation of the Triune God/Doctrine of the Trinity, and yes the Doctrine of the trinity was developed by the Catholic church, the only thing Protestants, those who are not of the catholic church, did was remove "This is the Catholic Faith" and "So the Catholic religion" from the doctrine... other than that it is all the same and even the oneness believers utilize this same explanation in whole or in part..

"The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus, the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus, the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly, there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So, in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity."

Yes.
Do you really believe that God has limitations?

 

[Matthias]

Do you really believe that God has limitations?

Do you really believe God has no (self-imposed) limitations?

What would you say to a trinitarian who believes God is three persons, to the best of our current knowledge, but - since God has no limitations - he could be a million persons?

I had a long-running conversation with such a trinitarian. (To be fair to him, he did say up front that he was a non-conformist. I hinted to you what I told him.)

 

[michaelvpardo]

Do you really believe God has no (self-imposed) limitations?

What would you say to a trinitarian who believes God is three persons, to the best of our current knowledge, but - since God has no limitations - he could be a million persons?

I had a long-running conversation with such a trinitarian. (To be fair to him, he did say up front that he was a non-conformist. I hinted to you what I told him.)

God could be a million persons, but what purpose would that serve? Each person of "the trinity" is functionally divided, yet of the same Spirit. My understanding of the trinity is informed by my belief in the theorem of special relativity, but the existence of time as a spatial dimension is still disputed despite the experimental evidence. I could be mistaken in my understanding because I'm pretty sure that I wasn't present at the creation of all things, yet I was known by God then, and this makes perfect sense when you understand time as part of creation.

 

[Matthias]

God could be a million persons, but what purpose would that serve? Each person of "the trinity" is functionally divided, yet of the same Spirit. My understanding of the trinity is informed by my belief in the theorem of special relativity, but the existence of time as a spatial dimension is still disputed despite the experimental evidence. I could be mistaken in my understanding because I'm pretty sure that I wasn't present at the creation of all things, yet I was known by God then, and this makes perfect sense when you understand time as part of creation.

Purpose questions aside, IF the Trinity is immutable (which is what I was taught) then how could the Trinity be a million persons?

 

[RLT63]

Is Jesus God Himself or God the Son??


For all of those who say that Jesus is God Himself or even God The Son, you first have to ask you self, Is God Capable of telling a lie?

Hebrews 6:18 “That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:”

Now John 1:1,14 are the two verses that are utilized in establishing that Jesus is God Himself.

Paul never once said that God called Jesus God. They use Hebrews 1:8 to establish this false fact…

Show me, in the Bible, where God ever told Jesus “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”

Reading the new testament, there is no such place where God ever said that to Jesus.. David does make this statement in Psalms 45:6 when David wrote it praising God, “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.”

Back to the capable of telling a lie…

Jesus said that he could do nothing of himself, yet you claim he is “God the Son” thereby God Himself…

Jesus said that he has not come to destroy the Laws or the Prophets, yet you claim he is God Himself and call him a liar if you do not keep the commandments of God as Jesus himself makes clear when he was asked directly what must be don to inherit eternal life…

If you loved Jesus at all, and claim him to be God Himself, then you would keep his commandments. John 14:15 “If ye love me, keep my commandments.”

Jesus never once said that he came down to do his own will, yet you claim him to be God Himself. John 6:38 “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”

Jesus clearly says who God is to him and to others when he spoke to Mary after his resurrection. John 20:17 “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

Before that he made this statement explain that the one the Jews say is their God. John 8:54 “Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:”

False doctrine is false doctrine, the Bible does not teach a “Triune God anywhere in it.

I could list every single piece of scripture people use to establish Jesus as being God but, I won’t.

Before you post your scriptures make sure that they do not make Jesus nor God Himself out to be a liar.

I am sure that there will be a lot of you who will ignore what I have written, in fact I know you will. It will show in your defense of your False doctrine…

You will give me all kinds of theories of “How you believe the Bible says that Jesus is God Himself” but you will never not once Show me where the Bible explains how it is possible for God to tell a lie. Which will be ignored…

You claim that the Bible is God’s word, thereby calling God Himself a liar. John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Yet you ignore the very word of God…

Use Matthew-John to prove God is capable of telling a lie.. you cannot use You can use Peter, 1-3 John and James as well as they were with Jesus and were his disciples. Paul was not a disciple of Jesus did not walk with Jesus during his ministries on earth. And if you claim that Jesus spoke to him, Since you claim that Jesus is God Himself and that God only Speaks through Scripture, Remember Paul was on a road sleeping when he heard a voice and he looked up and seen him… Saul is commonly known as Paul… Acts 9:1-19, this tells the story of Paul’s Conversion and calling to preach…

According to the "Doctrine of the Trinity", it doesn't matter whom you refer to, you are always referring to God himself...

God is the The Father,
God is the Son,
God is the Holy Spirit.

John 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of Him that sent me."

Whose will did God Himself come down from heaven to do, if not his own?

If you say that God the Son was doing the will of God the Father, you are still saying that God Himself was still doing his own will.

If you say that the Son was doing the will of the Father, you are still saying that God Himself was doing his own will....

The explanation of the Triune God/Doctrine of the Trinity, and yes the Doctrine of the trinity was developed by the Catholic church, the only thing Protestants, those who are not of the catholic church, did was remove "This is the Catholic Faith" and "So the Catholic religion" from the doctrine... other than that it is all the same and even the oneness believers utilize this same explanation in whole or in part..

"The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus, the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus, the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly, there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So, in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity."

I will take your advice and just ignore your post. Thanks.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Purpose questions aside, IF the Trinity is immutable (which is what I was taught) then how could the Trinity be a million persons?

Possibly because what exists, exists, and what we imagine doesn't. But if we're talking Roman Catholic doctrine, their theology is not entirely biblical. It doesn't recognize the gospel as taught by the Apostle Paul, or there would be no structured priesthood (every born again believer has direct access to God and needs no other intermediary than the Lord, Jesus the Christ.)
You may as well ask how One Spirit can simultaneously inhabit every born again believer on Earth. The Holy Spirit is God, yet He's present in every born again believer, acting in unison occasionally, but independently in each soul. Our rules don't apply to God. He can do whatever He pleases, and as far as I know He does.

 

[Matthias]

Possibly because what exists, exists, and what we imagine doesn't. But if we're talking Roman Catholic doctrine, their theology is not entirely biblical. It doesn't recognize the gospel as taught by the Apostle Paul, or there would be no structured priesthood (every born again believer has direct access to God and needs no other intermediary than the Lord, Jesus the Christ.)
You may as well ask how One Spirit can simultaneously inhabit every born again believer on Earth. The Holy Spirit is God, yet He's present in every born again believer, acting in unison occasionally, but independently in each soul. Our rules don't apply to God. He can do whatever He pleases, and as far as I know He does.

Thanks. I was raised Southern Baptist and taught historical orthodox trinitarianism. There was no room or allowance in that teaching for a deity who may be millions of persons. Whenever I defend the Trinity I still do so from the perspective of that ingrained, rigid, training of my heritage.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Thanks. I was raised Southern Baptist and taught historical orthodox trinitarianism. There was no room or allowance in that teaching for a deity who may be millions of persons. Whenever I defend the Trinity I still do so from the perspective of that ingrained, rigid, training of my heritage.

I'm sure that everyone born and raised in a religious context has a mind in agreement with parts of that context. What we learn from parents and other "authorities " as children plays a huge part in our "worldview. "
If you're unfamiliar with the concept of worldview, it simply means the mental framework in which we understand what we perceive. That structure is a necessity for us to function in the world, but is itself a mental construct that doesn't necessarily reflect reality. When people challenge our belief, they are challenging our worldview in the process, and impacting our ability to function or the way that we live. It's such a potent mental function that some people commit suicide when their worldview collapses (because of revealed error.)

Worldview is radically altered in the new birth, perception is altered in the light.

I don't believe that a carnal mind is equipped to understand the trinity, but it's a difficult concept to express in true monotheistic belief. My understanding of relativistic theory, though imperfect, gives me a framework for understanding the trinity that may or may not be true, but is supported by scripture. Understanding is a necessary thing for my faith, but not for everyone's, and Jesus was clear that a simple faith as that of a child is sufficient for Salvation, even the only way to enter in.
The volume of the book, as it were, doesn't make great distinction between the "persons" of the Godhood and uses them interchangeably to some extent, but the revealed differences all seem to be self imposed limitations for the purpose of Revelation.
The concept of immutability applies to creation, where it is derived. We can only understand God from the framework of creation, but God created the framework and exists outside of that framework.
The Trinity is the result of God entering creation in the person's of His Son and His Spirit, and there's no reason to assume that this doesn't apply to His heavens as well. According to Genesis they are also created by the word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ.
I'm much more comfortable with the concept of One God who expresses Himself in three persons, than three persons who express themselves as One God. "Sh'mah Israel, Adonai allehenu, Adonai echad!"
A divided God is a polytheistic notion, and while God may express Himself in human terms as both judge and advocate, His word is written or given to us in a way that we can understand it, given our limitations. Eg.: The Earth doesn't have 4 corners, but that's how men perceived direction and orientation. The Sun doesn't rise and fall, but that's how we perceive it in our inertial framework. There wouldn't be much point in revealing what our minds were incapable of understanding, and even this point tends to be missed by the carnal mind.

 

[Matthias]

I'm sure that everyone born and raised in a religious context has a mind in agreement with parts of that context. What we learn from parents and other "authorities " as children plays a huge part in our "worldview. "
If you're unfamiliar with the concept of worldview, it simply means the mental framework in which we understand what we perceive. That structure is a necessity for us to function in the world, but is itself a mental construct that doesn't necessarily reflect reality. When people challenge our belief, they are challenging our worldview in the process, and impacting our ability to function or the way that we live. It's such a potent mental function that some people commit suicide when their worldview collapses (because of revealed error.)

Worldview is radically altered in the new birth, perception is altered in the light.

I don't believe that a carnal mind is equipped to understand the trinity, but it's a difficult concept to express in true monotheistic belief. My understanding of relativistic theory, though imperfect, gives me a framework for understanding the trinity that may or may not be true, but is supported by scripture. Understanding is a necessary thing for my faith, but not for everyone's, and Jesus was clear that a simple faith as that of a child is sufficient for Salvation, even the only way to enter in.
The volume of the book, as it were, doesn't make great distinction between the "persons" of the Godhood and uses them interchangeably to some extent, but the revealed differences all seem to be self imposed limitations for the purpose of Revelation.
The concept of immutability applies to creation, where it is derived. We can only understand God from the framework of creation, but God created the framework and exists outside of that framework.
The Trinity is the result of God entering creation in the person's of His Son and His Spirit, and there's no reason to assume that this doesn't apply to His heavens as well. According to Genesis they are also created by the word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ.
I'm much more comfortable with the concept of One God who expresses Himself in three persons, than three persons who express themselves as One God. "Sh'mah Israel, Adonai allehenu, Adonai echad!"
A divided God is a polytheistic notion, and while God may express Himself in human terms as both judge and advocate, His word is written or given to us in a way that we can understand it, given our limitations. Eg.: The Earth doesn't have 4 corners, but that's how men perceived direction and orientation. The Sun doesn't rise and fall, but that's how we perceive it in our inertial framework. There wouldn't be much point in revealing what our minds were incapable of understanding, and even this point tends to be missed by the carnal mind.

I’m Old School.

We can call a desk a chair but a desk is a desk, not a chair.

It’s the same with the Trinity. The Trinity has been well defined since the 4th century. Any deviation from that definition is calling something that isn’t the Trinity the Trinity.

I run across this constantly, in the classroom, in the church, on discussion forums in everyday conversation with family, friends and casual acquaintances.

“I believe in the Trinity!” - but upon closer examination the person doesn’t believe in the Trinity - the person believes in a trinity of their own making. (For example, the Trinity is one being. I wish I had a dollar for every time a trinitarian - to say nothing of non-trinitarians - who say the Trinity is three beings.)

Of course there are people who say they believe in the Trinity and, upon closer examination, actually do believe in the Trinity, as defined by the Church since the 4th century.

Personally, I blame the trinitarian clergy for the growing number of people who embrace non-trinitarianism and call it trinitarianism.

A novel idea: If a person wants to be a trinitarian then the person should believe what the doctrine of the Trinity has historically taught about the Trinity.

Is that too much to ask? Yes, say many. (And that number is slowly, but steadily, growing. See Pew Research surveys, and others, for confirmation.)

Is that a problem for trinitarianism? The answer depends upon who we ask.

One of my favorite books by a trinitarian author is Heresies: Heresy And Orthodoxy In The History Of The Church by Harold O.J. Brown. Dr. Brown (a Protestant scholar) was positively alarmed at the declining situation and spent his life pleading with Christians to return to Chalcedon and Nicaea.

Dr. Brown, now deceased, was Old School. His plea is falling, largely, on deaf ears.

And now, a rant. (Optional, optional reading.)

*

“I believe in the Trinity! … but I don’t believe in what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches about the Trinity. I don’t believe (or don’t know and don’t care) what the Nicene Creed teaches. I don’t believe (or don’t know and don’t care) what the Chalcedonian Creed teaches.”

I tell you that such a person, no matter how sincere he or she may be, isn’t what he or she claims to be.

Ah, but that’s Old School thinking.

We live in a day and age when words and concepts no longer retain their original meaning.

We see it in the culture. We see it in the Church. We see it in the classroom. We see it in our work place. We see it in our friends. We see it in our families. We see it in our casual acquaintances. We see it on discussion forums. It’s the spirit of the present evil age.

*

 

[Davy]

Even The Old Testament Scripture testifies of Christ as God...

Luke 20:42-44
42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, "The LORD said unto my Lord, 'Sit Thou on My right hand,
43 Till I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.'
44 David therefore calleth Him Lord, how is He then his son?
KJV

Isa 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
KJV


The unbelieving Jews couldn't answer that above question Lord Jesus asked them, so neither can the Jew that wrote the OP.

 

[RLT63]

I’m Old School.

We can call a desk a chair but a desk is a desk, not a chair.

It’s the same with the Trinity. The Trinity has been well defined since the 4th century. Any deviation from that definition is calling something that isn’t the Trinity the Trinity.

I run across this constantly, in the classroom, in the church, on discussion forums in everyday conversation with family, friends and casual acquaintances.

“I believe in the Trinity!” - but upon closer examination the person doesn’t believe in the Trinity - the person believes in a trinity of their own making. (For example, the Trinity is one being. I wish I had a dollar for every time a trinitarian - to say nothing of non-trinitarians - who say the Trinity is three beings.)

Of course there are people who say they believe in the Trinity and, upon closer examination, actually do believe in the Trinity, as defined by the Church since the 4th century.

Personally, I blame the trinitarian clergy for the growing number of people who embrace non-trinitarianism and call it trinitarianism.

A novel idea: If a person wants to be a trinitarian then the person should believe what the doctrine of the Trinity has historically taught about the Trinity.

Is that too much to ask? Yes, say many. (And that number is slowly, but steadily, growing. See Pew Research surveys, and others, for confirmation.)

Is that a problem for trinitarianism? The answer depends upon who we ask.

One of my favorite books by a trinitarian author is Heresies: Heresy And Orthodoxy In The History Of The Church by Harold O.J. Brown. Dr. Brown (a Protestant scholar) was positively alarmed at the declining situation and spent his life pleading with Christians to return to Chalcedon and Nicaea.

Dr. Brown, now deceased, was Old School. His plea is falling, largely, on deaf ears.

And now, a rant. (Optional, optional reading.)

*

“I believe in the Trinity! … but I don’t believe in what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches about the Trinity. I don’t believe (or don’t know and don’t care) what the Nicene Creed teaches. I don’t believe (or don’t know and don’t care) what the Chalcedonian Creed teaches.”

I tell you that such a person, no matter how sincere he or she may be, isn’t what he or she claims to be.

Ah, but that’s Old School thinking.

We live in a day and age when words and concepts no longer retain their original meaning.

We see it in the culture. We see it in the Church. We see it in the classroom. We see it in our work place. We see it in our friends. We see it in our families. We see it in our casual acquaintances. We see it on discussion forums. It’s the spirit of the present evil age.

*

I believe in the Trinity but I don't understand it. As one pastor said I don't even understand how a brown cow eats green grass and gives white milk, but I still drink milk.

 

[Mr E]

I believe in the Trinity but I don't understand it. As one pastor said I don't even understand how a brown cow eats green grass and gives white milk, but I still drink milk.

It's for the same reason some people drink the Kool-Ade without bothering to ask what's in it.

 

[RLT63]

It's for the same reason some people drink the Kool-Ade without bothering to ask what's in it.

Speak for yourself

 

[mailmandan]

I believe in the Trinity but I don't understand it. As one pastor said I don't even understand how a brown cow eats green grass and gives white milk, but I still drink milk.

One God in essence/nature yet 3 distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe it, but don't claim to fully comprehend it.

 

[RLT63]

One God in essence/nature yet 3 distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe it, but don't claim to fully comprehend it.

I don't think anyone can fully understand God. Some people on the forum think they do.

 

[RLT63]

One God in essence/nature yet 3 distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe it, but don't claim to fully comprehend it.

By the way, good to see you here.

 

[Matthias]

I believe in the Trinity but I don't understand it. As one pastor said I don't even understand how a brown cow eats green grass and gives white milk, but I still drink milk.

Trinitarian theology is complicated. In my opinion, it was never intended to be understood; just believed.

I gave a lecture in Kenya about the Messiah’s theology. After the lecture a man approached me with a huge smile on his face. He complimented me on the lecture, told me how wonderful the Messiah’s faith sounded and then, before I even had a chance to thank him for his very kind words - he dropped the hammer: It couldn’t possibly be true because it was just too simple.

He extended his hand to shake mine and then, still smiling, vanished into the crowd.

 

[RLT63]

Trinitarian theology is complicated. In my opinion, it was never intended to be understood; just believed.

I gave a lecture in Kenya about the Messiah’s theology. After the lecture a man approached me with a huge smile on his face. He complimented me on the lecture, told me how wonderful the Messiah’s faith sounded and then, before I even had a chance to thank him for his very kind words - he dropped the hammer: It couldn’t possibly be true because it was just too simple.

He extended his hand to shake mine and then, still smiling, vanished into the crowd.

It is not easy to find a name that will suitably express so great an excellence, unless it is better to speak in this way: the Trinity, one God, of whom are all things, through whom are all things, in whom are all things. Thus the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and each of these by Himself, is God, and at the same time they are all one God; and each of them by Himself is a complete substance, and yet they are all one substance. The Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit; the Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is not the Father nor the Son: but the Father is only Father, the Son is only Son, and the Holy Spirit is only Holy Spirit. To all Three belong the same eternity, the same unchangeableness, the same majesty, the same power. In the Father is unity, in the Son equality, in the Holy Spirit the harmony of unity and equality. And these three attributes are all one because of the Father, all equal because of the Son, and all harmonious because of the Holy Spirit.
Augustine

 

[Matthias]

It is not easy to find a name that will suitably express so great an excellence, unless it is better to speak in this way: the Trinity, one God, of whom are all things, through whom are all things, in whom are all things. Thus the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and each of these by Himself, is God, and at the same time they are all one God; and each of them by Himself is a complete substance, and yet they are all one substance. The Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit; the Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is not the Father nor the Son: but the Father is only Father, the Son is only Son, and the Holy Spirit is only Holy Spirit. To all Three belong the same eternity, the same unchangeableness, the same majesty, the same power. In the Father is unity, in the Son equality, in the Holy Spirit the harmony of unity and equality. And these three attributes are all one because of the Father, all equal because of the Son, and all harmonious because of the Holy Spirit.
Augustine

I’ve read Augustine but I haven’t read as much Augustine as my Catholic family (I married into) and trinitarian friends (Catholic and Protestant) warrants. It’s on my bucket list of things to do.

Thanks to the encouragement of a Catholic friend I made on these forums, I’ve been re-reading Tertullian. His (Tertullian’s, not my Catholic friend’s) conception of the Trinity isn’t the conception of later orthodoxy. I find that very interesting.