Is Jesus God Himself or God the Son?

[Wrangler]

God is one, expressed in three different persons, get a grasp on scripture

1 John 5:7-8KJV
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Do you realize the KJV translation is wrong at 1 John 5:7-8KJV?

 

[Truth7t7]

Do you realize the KJV translation is wrong at 1 John 5:7-8KJV?

Do you realize the KJV translators were right on 1John 5:7-8, and the corrupt Alexandrian Egyptian Text is wrong that supports new Bible perversions

 

[Wrangler]

Do you realize the KJV translatorswereright on 1John 5:7-8, and the corrupt Alexandrian Egyptian Textt is wrong that supports new Bible perversions

The trinity is not in the Bible. Sorry you’re seeing the trinity in your corn flakes, clouds and monotheist text.

To be clear, when I write that the trinity is not found anywhere in Scripture, I mean that neither the word nor the concept of the trinity is explicitly in the Bible. To avoid the inevitable Appeal to Strawman, there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

 

[Truth7t7]

The trinity is not in the Bible. Sorry you’re seeing the trinity in your corn flakes, clouds and monotheist text.

To be clear, when I write that the trinity is not found anywhere in Scripture, I mean that neither the word nor the concept of the trinity is explicitly in the Bible. To avoid the inevitable Appeal to Strawman, there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

I fully agree the word "Trinity" isn't in the bible, the word "Godhead" is used in my KJV Bible

At no time do I suggest or believe that a belief in the "Godhead" is necessary for salvation

Romans 1:20KJV
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

"The Godhead"

I John 5:7-8KJV
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

 

[Wrangler]

I fully agree the word "Trinity" isn't in the bible

Appeal to Strawman. I said neither the word nor the concept is in the Bible.

Why can't you fully agree there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever?

the word "Godhead" is used in my KJV Bible

There is no word "Godhead" in the original language of Scripture. This is why trinitarian translators, such as KJV, impose their doctrine onto monotheist text.

None of my 7 translations use Godhead, e.g., CEV, NLT, NRSV, NIV, ESV, CJB or VOICE.

• Rom 1:20 From the beginning, creation in its magnificence enlightens us to His nature. Creation itself makes His undying power and divine identity clear, even though they are invisible; and it voids the excuses and ignorant claims of these people.
• 1 John 5:7-8 So there are three testifying witnesses: 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood. All three are in total agreement.

​

 

[Wrangler]

Do you realize the KJV translators were right on 1John 5:7-8, and the corrupt Alexandrian Egyptian Text is wrong that supports new Bible perversions

OK. This goes to show how desperate you are to rationalize the trinity and the man-is-god thesis. Consider comparisons to these explicit texts:

• 1C, You Shall Have No gods Before Me. (Singular Pronoun). Most especially, this includes the trinitarian god.
• The Sh'ma, the most important commandment. Deut 6:4-5 Listen, Israel! The Eternal is our True God—He alone. 5 You should love Him, your True God, with all your heart and soul, with every ounce of your strength. Notice how the true God is alone, one in nature? An intelligent mind would ask, why doesn't the most important command identify the 3 in 1 nature of God? Also, the VOICE translation emphasizes the eternal nature of God. Jesus died, which demonstrates he is not eternal.
• Is 45:5 I am the Eternal One; there is no other God but Me. Again, notice the singular pronouns? There is no 3 in 1 God, only the eternal one.
  
• 1 Cor 8:6 'For us, there is one God, the Father.' Where is the offsetting trinitarian verse explicitly stating that for us the nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever?
• The Gospel of John is the most anti-trinitarian book in the whole Bible.
  • 17:3 Jesus says his Father is the only true God.
  • 20:17 Jesus says he has not yet ascended to his God.
• Ex 3:15 NOG says Yahweh is the personal name of God and that is to be his name forever.

According to the explicit text of Scripture, there is only one (single, not plural in any way) God, Jesus' God, who we relate to as our Father, and there is no other. Again, I invite you to provide trinitarian verses that are equally explicit.

1. Where does it say you shall have no gods before the trinity god?
2. Where does it say the nature of God is a trinity, and this is the only true God that you should love with your all?
3. Where does it say God is an eternal threesome?
   
4. Where does it say for us, there is a trinitarian god?
   
5. And where does Jesus say he and the Holy Spirit, along with the Father, are the only true God?
6. And where does Jesus say he is his own God?
7. Finally, where does Scripture says Yahweh changes his name to a nameless Spirit and his own Suffering Servant, Jesus?

I look forward to your well thought out reply.

 

[Truth7t7]

None of my 7 translations use Godhead, e.g., CEV, NLT, NRSV, NIV, ESV, CJB or VOICE.

• Rom 1:20 From the beginning, creation in its magnificence enlightens us to His nature. Creation itself makes His undying power and divine identity clear, even though they are invisible; and it voids the excuses and ignorant claims of these people.
• 1 John 5:7-8 So there are three testifying witnesses: 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood. All three are in total agreement.

Of course your translations don't see 1 John 5:7-8 because they follow the Alexandrian Text from Egypt, the 1% Minority of manuscript evidence, from the philosophical schools of Clement, Origen, Arius, the Greek text that the historical church never used or received

The Alexandrian Egyptian Greek Text that removes much scripture

Examples: Scripture Removed

Matthew 17:21, 18:11, Acts 8:37, Roman's 16:24

Comparison NIV, KJV 1 John 5:7-8

Alexandrian Greek Text NIV

1 John 5:7-8 NIV
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

Greek Received Text KJV

1 John 5:7-8KJV
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

 

[Truth7t7]

OK. This goes to show how desperate you are to rationalize the trinity and the man-is-god thesis. Consider comparisons to these explicit texts:

• 1C, You Shall Have No gods Before Me. (Singular Pronoun). Most especially, this includes the trinitarian god.
• The Sh'ma, the most important commandment. Deut 6:4-5 Listen, Israel! The Eternal is our True God—He alone. 5 You should love Him, your True God, with all your heart and soul, with every ounce of your strength. Notice how the true God is alone, one in nature? An intelligent mind would ask, why doesn't the most important command identify the 3 in 1 nature of God? Also, the VOICE translation emphasizes the eternal nature of God. Jesus died, which demonstrates he is not eternal.
• Is 45:5 I am the Eternal One; there is no other God but Me. Again, notice the singular pronouns? There is no 3 in 1 God, only the eternal one.
  
• 1 Cor 8:6 'For us, there is one God, the Father.' Where is the offsetting trinitarian verse explicitly stating that for us the nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever?
• The Gospel of John is the most anti-trinitarian book in the whole Bible.
  • 17:3 Jesus says his Father is the only true God.
  • 20:17 Jesus says he has not yet ascended to his God.
• Ex 3:15 NOG says Yahweh is the personal name of God and that is to be his name forever.

According to the explicit text of Scripture, there is only one (single, not plural in any way) God, Jesus' God, who we relate to as our Father, and there is no other. Again, I invite you to provide trinitarian verses that are equally explicit.

1. Where does it say you shall have no gods before the trinity god?
2. Where does it say the nature of God is a trinity, and this is the only true God that you should love with your all?
3. Where does it say God is an eternal threesome?
   
4. Where does it say for us, there is a trinitarian god?
   
5. And where does Jesus say he and the Holy Spirit, along with the Father, are the only true God?
6. And where does Jesus say he is his own God?
7. Finally, where does Scripture says Yahweh changes his name to a nameless Spirit and his own Suffering Servant, Jesus?

I look forward to your well thought out reply.

Once Again

The Father clearly states Jesus the Son is "God" with a big capital "G" for deity

Will you now be a Greek scholar, and tell the forum how the KJV translators were wrong?

Hebrews 1:8KJV
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

 

[Wrangler]

Once Again

The Father clearly states Jesus the Son is "God" with a big capital "G" for deity

Will you now be a Greek scholar, and tell the forum how the KJV translators were wrong?

Hebrews 1:8KJV
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

That's all you got to say? Repeat a deliberate misinterpretation? How sad. I'll pray for you.

'Your throne, of God' is for ever and ever does not mean the the son is God. Notice how v2 NLT says God (in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature) promised everything to the Son. Notice how v5 says how God (in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature) adopted this Son "today" meaning before that day, the resurrection day, he was not his son? Also in Psalms 45:6-7 says God (in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature) anointed the Son?


6 Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
You rule with a scepter of justice.
7 You love justice and hate evil.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you,
pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else.
Psalm 45:6-7 NLT

 

[Wrangler]

The Alexandrian Egyptian Greek Text that removes much scripture

Because it is not in older manuscripts. Calling text added Scripture is not right.

 

[RedFan]

The Father clearly states Jesus the Son is "God" with a big capital "G" for deity.

Sorry to come late to this party, but I need to ask: Are you distilling this from Hebrews 1:8-9? I hope we can agree that the author of Hebrews is simply quoting from Psalm 45 and reinterpreting it as the Father speaking of the Son (which was, of course, not at all the view of the Psalmist, who was speaking of an earthly king).

 

[ChristisGod]

Sorry to come late to this party, but I need to ask: Are you distilling this from Hebrews 1:8-9? I hope we can agree that the author of Hebrews is simply quoting from Psalm 45 and reinterpreting it as the Father speaking of the Son (which was, of course, not at all the view of the Psalmist, who was speaking of an earthly king).

were you redwine on another forum

 

[atpollard]

Show us where the Great I AM is capable of telling a lie...

He is not, but we are ... and you are capable of misunderstanding the Great I AM.
You throw around accusations that God is a liar quite a bit.
Certainly more often than I am comfortable reading.

You might be one of those 2 Timothy 3:5 people that we are to have "nothing to do with".

 

[RedFan]

were you redwine on another forum

No.

 

[ChristisGod]

No.

Ok thank you !

 

[Jim B]

Appeal to Strawman. I said neither the word nor the concept is in the Bible.

Why can't you fully agree there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever?


There is no word "Godhead" in the original language of Scripture. This is why trinitarian translators, such as KJV, impose their doctrine onto monotheist text.

None of my 7 translations use Godhead, e.g., CEV, NLT, NRSV, NIV, ESV, CJB or VOICE.

• Rom 1:20 From the beginning, creation in its magnificence enlightens us to His nature. Creation itself makes His undying power and divine identity clear, even though they are invisible; and it voids the excuses and ignorant claims of these people.
• 1 John 5:7-8 So there are three testifying witnesses: 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood. All three are in total agreement.

​

Don't blame others because you don't understand the trinity!

John 15:26, "When the Advocate [the Spirit of truth] comes, whom I [Jesus] will send you from the Father [God]—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me".

The trinity -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- in one verse, not once BUT TWICE!

(From the NET Bible)

CEV: I will send you the Spirit who comes from the Father and shows what is true. The Spirit will help you and will tell you about me.
[Jesus]

NLT: “But I will send you the Advocate—the Spirit of truth. He will come to you from the Father and will testify all about me."

NRSVue: “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father, he will testify on my behalf." (spoken by Jesus)

ESV: “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me."

CJB: “When the Counselor comes, whom I will send you from the Father — the Spirit of Truth, who keeps going out from the Father — he will testify on my behalf." (spoken by Jesus)

VOICE: "I will send a great Helper to you from the Father, one known as the Spirit of truth. He comes from the Father and will point to the truth as it concerns Me."

And any other translation you might read. Every single translation mentions the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit! Every single one!

 

[Bob Estey]

Is Jesus God Himself or God the Son??


For all of those who say that Jesus is God Himself or even God The Son, you first have to ask you self, Is God Capable of telling a lie?

Hebrews 6:18 “That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:”

Now John 1:1,14 are the two verses that are utilized in establishing that Jesus is God Himself.

Paul never once said that God called Jesus God. They use Hebrews 1:8 to establish this false fact…

Show me, in the Bible, where God ever told Jesus “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”

Reading the new testament, there is no such place where God ever said that to Jesus.. David does make this statement in Psalms 45:6 when David wrote it praising God, “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.”

Back to the capable of telling a lie…

Jesus said that he could do nothing of himself, yet you claim he is “God the Son” thereby God Himself…

Jesus said that he has not come to destroy the Laws or the Prophets, yet you claim he is God Himself and call him a liar if you do not keep the commandments of God as Jesus himself makes clear when he was asked directly what must be don to inherit eternal life…

If you loved Jesus at all, and claim him to be God Himself, then you would keep his commandments. John 14:15 “If ye love me, keep my commandments.”

Jesus never once said that he came down to do his own will, yet you claim him to be God Himself. John 6:38 “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”

Jesus clearly says who God is to him and to others when he spoke to Mary after his resurrection. John 20:17 “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

Before that he made this statement explain that the one the Jews say is their God. John 8:54 “Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:”

False doctrine is false doctrine, the Bible does not teach a “Triune God anywhere in it.

I could list every single piece of scripture people use to establish Jesus as being God but, I won’t.

Before you post your scriptures make sure that they do not make Jesus nor God Himself out to be a liar.

I am sure that there will be a lot of you who will ignore what I have written, in fact I know you will. It will show in your defense of your False doctrine…

You will give me all kinds of theories of “How you believe the Bible says that Jesus is God Himself” but you will never not once Show me where the Bible explains how it is possible for God to tell a lie. Which will be ignored…

You claim that the Bible is God’s word, thereby calling God Himself a liar. John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Yet you ignore the very word of God…

Use Matthew-John to prove God is capable of telling a lie.. you cannot use You can use Peter, 1-3 John and James as well as they were with Jesus and were his disciples. Paul was not a disciple of Jesus did not walk with Jesus during his ministries on earth. And if you claim that Jesus spoke to him, Since you claim that Jesus is God Himself and that God only Speaks through Scripture, Remember Paul was on a road sleeping when he heard a voice and he looked up and seen him… Saul is commonly known as Paul… Acts 9:1-19, this tells the story of Paul’s Conversion and calling to preach…

According to the "Doctrine of the Trinity", it doesn't matter whom you refer to, you are always referring to God himself...

God is the The Father,
God is the Son,
God is the Holy Spirit.

John 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of Him that sent me."

Whose will did God Himself come down from heaven to do, if not his own?

If you say that God the Son was doing the will of God the Father, you are still saying that God Himself was still doing his own will.

If you say that the Son was doing the will of the Father, you are still saying that God Himself was doing his own will....

The explanation of the Triune God/Doctrine of the Trinity, and yes the Doctrine of the trinity was developed by the Catholic church, the only thing Protestants, those who are not of the catholic church, did was remove "This is the Catholic Faith" and "So the Catholic religion" from the doctrine... other than that it is all the same and even the oneness believers utilize this same explanation in whole or in part..

"The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus, the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus, the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly, there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So, in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity."

It seems to me, Jesus is God in flesh (Emmanuel: God with us. Matthew 1:23).

 

[Truth7t7]

Sorry to come late to this party, but I need to ask: Are you distilling this from Hebrews 1:8-9? I hope we can agree that the author of Hebrews is simply quoting from Psalm 45 and reinterpreting it as the Father speaking of the Son (which was, of course, not at all the view of the Psalmist, who was speaking of an earthly king).

Sorry to come lately to your response, its out in left field and it's apparent that you don't have a clue

 

[Truther]

My friend as is the adventist as is my friend . You keep hammering in the same thing .
I say tis time to expose the all inclusive false love agenda . So many are going under it and its end is and will be the SECOND death .
OF that i am fully persauded .

Why should we argue other Bible ideas when everyone I am talking to is disobeying Acts 2:38. They have not even got past Acts 2:37 to qualify to read anything else. They are stuck at Acts 2:37…

These guys are still asking Peter what shall I do, every day of their lives. It’s just a crazy scenario.

 

[True Faith]

He is not, but we are ... and you are capable of misunderstanding the Great I AM.
You throw around accusations that God is a liar quite a bit.
Certainly more often than I am comfortable reading.

You might be one of those 2 Timothy 3:5 people that we are to have "nothing to do with".

And here is your issue... You are actually bound by scripture...

Titus 1:9-16 "9Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.10For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

Interesting how people cherry pick scripture to avoid answering questions...