Is Jesus the Saviour of the whole World?

[Ezra]

I believe some of these topics are essential for salvation and for living in the Spirit of the Kingdom.

THE Bible IS OUR INSTRUCTION MANUAL basic instructions before leaving earth. .. we are to study to shew thyself approved rightly dividing the truth. the Christian walk is not about a bunch of dos and don't s . the Holy spirit is our guide ..

 

[Ezra]

My eyes were opened up many years ago to the ongoing fraud and counterfeit in the sphere of Christendom

then how about you share this fraud you uncovered . this way the rest of us can be enlightened

 

[Wrangler]

then how about you share this fraud you uncovered . this way the rest of us can be enlightened

Hasn’t he already exposed this fraud? See post # 60.

 

[Ezra]

Hasn’t he already exposed this fraud?

i dunno what he has dont ..someone repost it so i can read it iam not going back track a bunch post

 

[shepherdsword]

Hasn’t he already exposed this fraud? See post # 60.

Didymus the Blind (313–398 AD) and later fathers like Gregory of Nyssa and John Chrysostom did quote 1Tim 3:16 with the reading "God" (Theos). This is in perfect harmony with John 1:1, John 1:14, and Titus 2:13 (to name a few) to establish the Word's divinity.

 

[Ezra]

Didymus the Blind (313–398 AD) and later fathers like Gregory of Nyssa and John Chrysostom did quote 1Tim 3:16 with the reading "God" (Theos). This is in perfect harmony with John 1:1, John 1:14, and Titus 2:13 (to name a few) to establish the Word's divinity.

and this is fraud of SCRIPTURES ?

 

[Wrangler]

Didymus the Blind (313–398 AD) and later fathers like Gregory of Nyssa and John Chrysostom did quote 1Tim 3:16 with the reading "God" (Theos). This is in perfect harmony with John 1:1, John 1:14, and Titus 2:13 (to name a few) to establish the Word's divinity.

Not really an answer to my quest about post #60.

 

[Beebster]

As humans, we seem to find a proper balance to be something that escapes us, so often, preferring a more radical and simplistic view to one that requires nuance and a deeper understanding of the matter. Is salvation inclusive or exclusive? What if it's both!

Hi Episkapos, nice to meet you.

I believe salvation is absolutely inclusive.

Jesus was sent to save the world and he will not fail.

Anything other than inclusive is exclusive; middle ground is exclusive.

Salvation cannot be both.

Peace.

 

[Ezra]

Not really an answer to my quest about post #60.

then EXPLAIN it goodness the bible says be ready give defense of the hope in you.. if you think you have found some false hood then lets see it.

 

[RepentingChristian]

Do you think that God gives mercy to the unmerciful?

You misunderstand.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkapos, nice to meet you.

I believe salvation is absolutely inclusive.

Jesus was sent to save the world and he will not fail.

Anything other than inclusive is exclusive; middle ground is exclusive.

Salvation cannot be both.

Peace.

Hi Beebster. While it is certain that salvation goes beyond the church....since God so loved the world...and not just the church, the criteria for salvation hasn't changed to love one neighbour as oneself, to fear the Lord, remain humble, and be merciful (something that a hypocrite cannot do)

The New Covenant has ADDED a new layer of salvation....a victory over sin...into the equation by empowering those who enter into Christ to walk in resurrection power and life. That is what is left out from all human interpretations.

 

[Wrangler]

then EXPLAIN it goodness the bible says be ready give defense of the hope in you.. if you think you have found some false hood then lets see it.

Not an answer to my question.

 

[Ezra]

Well let me start with last item first. I gave this commentary of 1 Timothy 3:16 in another thread on this site not too long ago. Here it is again...

1 Timothy 3:16 – segments of Christ’s life​

This verse is set as a creed as a hymn in poetic language.

The controversy centers around the use of the word ‘God’ or ‘who’ or ‘which, or ‘He.’ Now the message of the verse really does not alter by using any of the choices, although some will take the opportunity if the word is ‘God’ as the more acceptable word as proof that Yeshua, the Son of God is also God the Son. And fail to realize the point of the verse is about Yeshua’s’ life of godliness, shown in segments.

If God is used it surely does not mean God the Son is revealed in the flesh. It can mean that since God was in his Son, then his Father who is God was revealed through his Son, who was born human person. And if one of the other three choice of words was the best fit, then it would clearly reveal Yeshua the human being as part of the theme of godliness. And thus indicating his natural and yet unique method of creation.

Now from the start it must be said that the use of the word 'God' was a later insertion into the verse.

The majority of modern critical editions of the Greek New Testament, such as the Nestle-Aland and United Bible Societies' texts, favor the reading "He who was manifested in the flesh" or "Who was manifested in the flesh" based on the earliest extant manuscripts, including Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Alexandrinus, and others.

“God was manifested in flesh” is what we still have in the Textus Receptus but they who follow the Westcott & Hort / Nestle text do not have it.

In An Historical Account of Two Notable Corruptions of Scripture (posthumously published in 1754), Isaac Newton argues that a small change to early Greek versions of this verse effectively changed "which" (referring to godliness) was changed to "God". This change increases textual support for trinitarianism, a doctrine to which Newton did not subscribe. There is evidence that the original Greek read 'ος' but was modified by the addition of a strikethrough to become 'θς' (see the excerpt from the Codex Sinaiticus, above). 'θς' was then assumed to be a contraction of 'θεος.' The biblical scholar Metzger explains, "no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century (Ψ) supports θεος; all ancient versions presuppose ὃς or ὃ; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading of θεος."[24] In other words, Bible manuscripts closest to the original said 'who' and not 'God' in verse 16.

[ Source for paragraph above : First Epistle to Timothy - Wikipedia ]

The difference between these two readings has nothing to do with anyone wanting to "weaken the relationship between Father and Son"; it is simply a statement of fact consistent with the textual philosophy of the particular version being used. More specifically:

1. If we accept that earlier manuscripts are more likely to have the original text, then we essentially arrive at the UBS5/NA28 text. In 1 Tim 3:16 this gives "he/who" uniformly for all early MSS
2. If we accept the much later Byzantine text, then we essentially arrive at the Robinson-Pierpoint text (quite different from the TR but similar to the majority text). In 1 Tim 3:16 this gives "God".

The evidence from a number of Greek texts and textual authorities clearly indicates that the word “God” (theos in the Greek) was not originally in this verse. The King James Version was translated from the Stephens Greek text; and the Stephens Greek text does have in this verse the word theos, from which “God” was accurately translated. However, in Jesus Christ Is Not God, page 33, Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille reveals that in all the critical Greek texts other than Stephens, the masculine relative pronoun hos appears, instead of the word theos. These critical texts are documented in a note at the bottom of page 543 in The Interlinear KJV Parallel New Testament in Greek and English by George Ricker Berry. As noted in place of theos, these texts all have hos, meaning “who.”
The Companion Bible adds the understanding that it’s probable that an earlier reading was the neuter pronoun ho (which), to agree with mustērion, the Greek word translated “mystery,” which is also neuter. This agrees with the Syriac Version and all the Latin Versions….[1]

1 Timothy 3:16 in Codex Alexandrinus​

Reproduced below is the text of 1 Timothy 3:16–4:3 from Codex A, as presented in the photographic facsimile volume published by the British Museum in 1879. Of particular interest here is the reading in 3:16, where it may be seen that the manuscript reads ΘC "God was manifested in the flesh," employing the usual abbreviation ΘC for ΘEOC, with a stroke over the letters to indicate an abbreviation. However, textual critics believe that the ink in the center of ‘the Θ and the stroke above were added by a corrector in modern times. Reasons for this belief are the color of the ink, and the fact that a "dot" has been placed in the Θ instead of a line. Tregelles writes, "The ink in which this has been done in A is sufficiently modern and black to declare its recent application" (An Account of the Printed Text of the Greek New Testament, London, 1854). Without these marks, the manuscript originally read ΟC "He who was manifested in the flesh." In the photograph below the ΘC in 3:16 is circled. Further down, in verse 4:3, there is another ΘC circled for comparison. Click on the circled areas for a larger view.[2]


View attachment 76587


View attachment 76588

Figure 2 - 1 Tim 3:16 text alteration

And for your first subject, again...

"What’s clear is the scripture plainly says Moses was afraid to LOOK UPON God."

And you have not given your explanation for it either. Why was Moses afraid, in your own words?

Have you read in the OT where this created angel or messenger of YHWH was also an immoral Son of God, of any kind? Not likely! If as you believe, this angel of the OT is the same Son of YHWH of the NT, what was his name in the OT? And the angel of God does not cut it either, unless you are happy fooling yourself, using circular illogic by which you believe.

---

[1] (Way, 2021)
[2] (1 Timothy 3:16 in Codex Alexandrinus)

ok i gave up back tracked ---i find No merit in this most have no idea what

Codex Alexandrinus is.. including me i listen to many ministers who hold doc degrees and i have never heard them use this term your straining at a qnat while gagging at a camel..​

 

[Lizbeth]

Can you point to the post where @Episkopos said the whole world of unbelieving Gentiles will be saved? IF not, you dear sister, have shown yourself to be a false witness! And should be ashamed of yourself.


Lizbeth, I agree with Episkopos here. One of the most insufferable things of Christians is their self-righteousness, falsely believing that just because they say they believe in Jesus, they will be saved - and anyone who doesn't will be damned.

Curious is your jealousy for unbelievers being save since our Lord said @ John 21:22
“If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.”

In other words, no matter what Jesus' pronouncement is toward Gentiles, it does not absolve believers of the burden to follow him. And no believer can believe they are safe in light of Jesus words that even those who performed miracles in his name were never known by him. Now, before you clutch your pearls that what we are saying is blasphemy and goes against doctrine from the beginning, have a care that you heed 1 Peter 4:17
God has already begun judging his own people. And if his judgment begins with us, imagine how terrible it will be for those who refuse to obey his message.

Putting aside your personal attack of what @Episkopos is saying that offends you so, how do you read 1 Peter 4:17 in terms of a supposed guarantee of escaping judgement? To me, the answer is simple. Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Real faith is about action. Lip service will not breach the gates of heaven. Action gains entry, even action of those who never knew Jesus. We are not saved by our own works but our works reveal our true faith. Do you consider it justice for a man who lived in a time and place to never know Jesus but did the will of YHWH should be destroyed on Judgement Day? What spirit animates your heart?

Is it not God's will that mankind repent and receive Christ? Have you not read that now He commands all men everywhere to repent. The Lord reveals Himself to whomever He wills. What Spirit animates my heart....?.....I hope it is the same Spirit who inspired Rom 9. Not that I am willing that anyone should perish, because that is not my heart......however, I understand the Lord is God and He doesn't owe eternal life to anyone and that He has the right to make vessels of both honour and dishonour as He wills.. Fallen man is like the beasts that perish. All have the gift of a temporal life, for as long as it lasts. There are conditions attached to inheriting eternal life, and the foundational one is faith in Christ. After that of course we are to follow the Lord in sincere obedience, not doing as we please with our lives, but running the race lawfully, so as to win it. Why do you assume I would find that shocking or offensive?

I'm not offended and the only pearls I am clutching are pearls of truth. The point of my post was that Episkopos is contradicting himself. And not for the first time either. Episkopos believes unbelievers can be saved by their own righteousness and apart from faith in Christ. But now according to his take on that scripture he was addressing in his post that I was responding to, apparently this doesn't hold true for Jewish unbelievers though.....that only for the Jews was it necessary to believe in Christ to escape condemnation. He believes that where it says Jesus is the saviour of the whole world, that it means all will be saved including those who don't believe in Christ....again this appears to not include Jewish unbelievers. Just pointing out the inconsistency here.

 

[JLB]

My eyes were opened up many years ago to the ongoing fraud and counterfeit in the sphere of Christendom

We’re not discussing Christendom.

We are discussing scripture; God’s word.


Jesus Christ is LORD; YHWH, the LORD GOD who created the heavens and the earth.


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
‘Romans 10:9-13


What is the name of the LORD (YHWH) we call on to be saved?

 

[Lizbeth]

This is typical of an unbalanced thinking.

More unbalanced thinking. You need to try understanding God's ways without the self-interest.

I pointed out some inconsistency in your teaching, and it appears you are not able to resolve it, otherwise you would.

 

[JustMe]

We’re not discussing Christendom.

We are discussing scripture; God’s word.


Jesus Christ is LORD; YHWH, the LORD GOD who created the heavens and the earth.


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
‘Romans 10:9-13


What is the name of the LORD (YHWH) we call on to be saved?

JLB, back for more education.... God willing, his Spirit leading...

Dream on as you do not even understand the scripture you post.

And you never read my 1 Tim 3:16 commentary for understanding either. Hint, having theos instead of a pronoun for Yeshua in 1 Tim 3:16 does not change a thing. It still does not make Yeshua divine, now does it? God, Yeshua's Father was inside his Son at his anointing, and as a human son of man he revealed God to us of course, as witnessed by many. That does not make Yeshua divine, only the divine presence of the Spirit within his, his God, his Father!

And the sphere of Christendom does very much include scripture. Mark that one down as well.

2 Timothy 3:7.....

 

[JustMe]

ok i gave up back tracked ---i find No merit in this most have no idea what

Codex Alexandrinus is.. including me i listen to many ministers who hold doc degrees and i have never heard them use this term your straining at a qnat while gagging at a camel..​

I wonder why Ezra, you won't hear of this subject that often?

And I'm straining out the deliberate or ignorant error made in this particular scripture because some, in their futile attempt, promote and convince others that Yeshua is divine as his Father. Even if theos was original, in 1Tim 3:16, it still would not make Yeshua divine, as his Son did reveal his Father of course.

 

[Beebster]

Hi Beebster. While it is certain that salvation goes beyond the church....since God so loved the world...and not just the church, the criteria for salvation hasn't changed to love one neighbour as oneself, to fear the Lord, remain humble, and be merciful (something that a hypocrite cannot do)

The New Covenant has ADDED a new layer of salvation....a victory over sin...into the equation by empowering those who enter into Christ to walk in resurrection power and life. That is what is left out from all human interpretations.

I disagree. Dante's inferno has layers. Salvation does not.

Salvation is obtained through God's judgment by fire (not literal fire) either now through gehenna fire (not literal fire and no wrath) or later through the lake of fire (not literal fire but by or through God's wrath). It is all the same fire.

 

[Wrangler]

Can you point to the post where @Episkopos said the whole world of unbelieving Gentiles will be saved? IF not, you dear sister, have shown yourself to be a false witness! And should be ashamed of yourself.

Is it not God's will that mankind repent and receive Christ?

Not an answer. Sad.

the only pearls I am clutching are pearls of truth.

As you demonstrate an avoidance of truth!