Is Jesus the Saviour of the whole World?

[GodsGrace]

Now let’s apply this concept to the relationship between Humans, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

How do we relate FATHER, SON, HOLY SPIRIT to humans?
Don't you believe it's a unique relationship between the three?

 

[Taken]

I've heard 3 or 4 different Hebrew names that people have suggested. To me it's conjecture. Meanwhile, we have what we know in truth.

Much love!

Amen marks!!

Jesus, the Word of God?

Yes.

Gods Word absolute Truth?

Yes.

John 14:
[6a] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life…


Jesus in the Beginning, in the OT?

Yes.

Gen 1:
[1a] In the beginning,


Gen 1:
[3a] And God said,

Jesus’ Name Known IN the OT?

No.

Judg 12:
[17] And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?

Judg. 13:
[18] And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?


Deut 29:
[29] The secret things belong unto the LORD our God:
…
but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

NT revealing.

John 1:
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Luke 8:
[11] Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Gal 3:
[16c] seed, which is Christ.

Mark 8:
[27c]Whom do men say that I am?

Mark 8:
[29c] Thou art the Christ.

The Word of God…was revealed in the OT.
His Name was Secret, known Only to God.
The Name of the Word of God…(Jesus) Was revealed in the NT.
A Title of the Word of God… (Christ) Was revealed in the NT.
The Title (Christ), was revealed in the NT, that Christ IS : the Power and Wisdom of God.

1 Cor 1:
[24b]… Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Forever The name of Gods Word, the Title of Gods Power and Wisdom of God…
Revealed for the whole World to Know.

Gods revealing…
Mans FREEWILL…. Believe it or not.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Lambano]

How do we relate FATHER, SON, HOLY SPIRIT to humans?
Don't you believe it's a unique relationship between the three?

Other way around. How should we relate to them? Should we have a unique relationship with the Father, a unique relationship with the Son, and a unique relationship with the Holy Ghost? Or should we relate to them all the same?

 

[Lambano]

God would have to be essence.
He certainly is not physical.
Does He have substance?

“God is spirit” (John 4:24), so in that respect, God’s “substance” is something called “spirit” that can only be defined by a few speculated properties and by what it is not.

“Ousia” embraces all of what something is, which you can call essence, nature, or substance.

 

[Lambano]

Jesus has substance.
Does He STILL possess substance?

Jesus is a special case, because there are theological reasons for the claim that Jesus was (and still is?) “fully human and fully divine”.

I added the parenthetical statement because we don’t know what Jesus is now (if the question has any meaning), but I think whatever Jesus is now is what we will be.

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. (1 John 3:2)

 

[Episkopos]

I don't care for the fact that you placed God in parenthesis.

Other than that, Yes, I agree.

Humanity, or Christianity, relates to God as 3 distinct PERSONS because the bible shows God to be a Father, a Son, and a Spirit.

IF the Trinity is not correct...
then we have three Gods.....which I'm having difficulty making another member understand.

The doctrine of the Trinity is found within the bible....
some sense had to be made of it.

That doctrine is from a human understanding of spiritual things.

Jesus said...My Father and I are ONE. One what? One Spirit. The Father sent His Spirit and whoever doesn't have the Spirit of Christ is not His. So then both Father and Son have a Spirit (actually these SHARE One Holy Spirit)...Are these Spirits also God? If there is ANOTHER separate Spirit on top of that that is God separately, then there are 5 Persons not three.

In Hebrew the Holy Spirit is a thing not a person.....KODESH not KADOSH...and Spirit is FEMININE in Hebrew. Spirit is masculine in Greek.

How can a person be seen as opposite in gender based on language....UNLESS Spirit is an attribute of God....not a person apart from the one having the spirit?

Paul compares us having a spirit with God having a Spirit. Unless you think your own spirit is a separate person....


For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 1 Cor 2:11

Basically this is from Paul showing how little people understand spiritual things...hence the wanky doctrines...

Can anyone compare spiritual things with spiritual things? Pretty straightforward in this case.

 

[Marvelloustime]

the preaching of the real gospel . not ecumenical dung . That wont be saving anyone .
We preach JESUS and who so ever beleives in him is reconciled to GOD .

@amigo de christo

 

[GodsGrace]

Other way around. How should we relate to them? Should we have a unique relationship with the Father, a unique relationship with the Son, and a unique relationship with the Holy Ghost? Or should we relate to them all the same?

Oh.
Yes.
Interesting question.
I DO believe that the relationship is different....
I believe it can be backed up by scripture.

The Father is referred to as the Creator, the Almighty, The Highest.

Jesus is also referred to as the above but He is described in the NT as the Savior,
the Truth, all the "I Am's". Our rabbi/teacher, the one we are to follow.

The Holy Spirit is known as the comforter, the paracleet, the one who will bring all to our memory, the one who will convict of sin.

So I tend to pray to Father...although also Jesus...seems I never pray to the Holy Spirit.
I thank Jesus for my salvation.
I look to the Holy Spirit for strength when it's necessary.

You?

 

[amigo de christo]

Oh.
Yes.
Interesting question.
I DO believe that the relationship is different....
I believe it can be backed up by scripture.

The Father is referred to as the Creator, the Almighty, The Highest.

Jesus is also referred to as the above but He is described in the NT as the Savior,
the Truth, all the "I Am's". Our rabbi/teacher, the one we are to follow.

The Holy Spirit is known as the comforter, the paracleet, the one who will bring all to our memory, the one who will convict of sin.

So I tend to pray to Father...although also Jesus...seems I never pray to the Holy Spirit.
I thank Jesus for my salvation.
I look to the Holy Spirit for strength when it's necessary.

You?

Cling always to the glorious LORD and abide by His SPIRIT for without him we can do nothing .
It is always and all times necessary to lean upon the LORD for all things .

 

[saved by grace 101]

How do we relate FATHER, SON, HOLY SPIRIT to humans?
Don't you believe it's a unique relationship between the three?

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, JUST AS YOU ARE IN ME AND I AM IN YOU MAY THEY ALSO BE IN US so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one AS AS we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to COMPLETE UNITY. John17:20-23



According to Jesus, believers can be in Father and Son as they are in each other. How can believers be in Father and Son? Only through the Holy Spirit. 'JUST AS YOU ARE IN ME AND I AM IN YOU MAY THEY ALSO BE IN US

How can believers be as one?

Only through the Holy Spirit, there is no other way, of one heart and one mind in the Spirit, in complete unity.

And Jesus prayed: That they(believers) may be one AS AS we are one

Its all about the Holy Spirit

 

[JustMe]

I'm sure @Beebster is a nice person.
We're having a conversation - there's no problem here.
He thinks I'm misunderstanding him...
and I think I'm understanding him just fine.

As to the Trinity being true...
you've posted YOUR opinion...
which you tend to do .

I can only respond to scripture and I don't see any.

You're a riot. I would look in the mirror of reflection once in a while. It just might do you some good and topple your ivory tower, as it should.

 

[JustMe]

Please provide scripture.
This is a new concept to me.

The Holy Spirit is represented as a Person.

Ephesians 4:30
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

It does not state that we are not to grieve GOD...
or even the spirit of God...
It states that we are not to grieve THE HOLY SPIRIT of God.
Just as the NT states The Son of God.....so it states the Holy Spirit of God.

John 14:26
26But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things

The Holy Spirit is referred to as a HE....
HE will teach you....

This is true in 3 languages, not only in the English translation.


John 15:26
26“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

The Holy Spirit PROCEEDS from the Father...
Just as the Son does.



I like to discuss what the bible states....
not ecclesiastical authority - which could be wrong.

I never mentioned a Roman Government.
If I EVER mention the Council of Nicea it's to show that a council CONFIRMS what a Christian teaching is and the Council of Nicea CONFIRMED that Jesus is God.....

amidst some gnostic sects that were teaching that Jesus was a mere man.
Some might know this as Arianism.

No sir.
The fact that God is more than one PERSON is biblical.
Jesus is shown to be God in the NT writings.
This has nothing to do with govenments or culture.
Believing the NT IS a living faith.
When we do NOT believe what the Apostles taught it is then that we have a dead faith.

Jesus is God.
John 1:1
John 1:14

THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD. VERSE 1
THE WORD BECAME FLESH. VERSE 14

GOD BECAME FLESH.

I believe he is a Binitarian Christian as you are a Trinitarian Christian and I am a true Monotheist Unitarian primitive Christian.

He's a pictorial of the difference 3 groups:

 

[GodsGrace]

That doctrine is from a human understanding of spiritual things.

Hi E,,,,
This is what I keep hearing.
That the Trinity is a human understanding.
What about all the verses I post?
Are they not valid??

If the NT presents Jesus as divine...
HOW do we explain that He was in human form?

John 1:14
14And the Word became flesh...

Philippians 2:6-8
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man,


But Jesus is also represented as God:

John 20:28
28Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Colossians 2:9
9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

Hebrews 1:3
3He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature,


And so, all these verses about Jesus must b e reconciled.

Jesus said...My Father and I are ONE. One what? One Spirit. The Father sent His Spirit and whoever doesn't have the Spirit of Christ is not His. So then both Father and Son have a Spirit (actually these SHARE One Holy Spirit)...Are these Spirits also God? If there is ANOTHER separate Spirit on top of that that is God separately, then there are 5 Persons not three.

Why confuse matters?
God is ONE BEING.
In this one being there exist 3 Persons.
They share one will and one spirit.
One Spirit...which is different than the Holy Spirit - which is one of the 3 Persons.

In Hebrew the Holy Spirit is a thing not a person.....KODESH not KADOSH...and Spirit is FEMININE in Hebrew. Spirit is masculine in Greek.

I know that in the OT the Spirit of God is sometimes referred to as feminine.
I've had the idea that we are filled with the Spirit...
and we are the CHURCH....
And the CHURCH is the bride of Christ.

I'm not stating that this is biblical.

How can a person be seen as opposite in gender based on language....UNLESS Spirit is an attribute of God....not a person apart from the one having the spirit?

Of course God IS spirit.
Is that an attribute?
Or is it His essence?

God's attributes are not SEPARATE from Him,,,
but are part of Him.
This is known as Divine Simplicity.
I'm sure you know about it.

Paul compares us having a spirit with God having a Spirit. Unless you think your own spirit is a separate person....

I'm not God E.
My spirit comes from God.
The Holy Spirit DWELLS within me.
He is not part of me in the sense of being my essence.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 1 Cor 2:11

I don't know what you think the above means.
1 Cor 2:11 Man knows what man thinks. Just as God knows what God is thinking -

Basically this is from Paul showing how little people understand spiritual things...hence the wanky doctrines...

Can anyone compare spiritual things with spiritual things? Pretty straightforward in this case.

Paul is saying that God has let us know what God is thinking.
The Trinity is not a wanky doctrine...it's what the NT teaches.

If one believes that Jesus is God - as every Christian should - then an explanation must be offered or we create two Gods.

 

[GodsGrace]

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, JUST AS YOU ARE IN ME AND I AM IN YOU MAY THEY ALSO BE IN US so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one AS AS we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to COMPLETE UNITY. John17:20-23



According to Jesus, believers can be in Father and Son as they are in each other. How can believers be in Father and Son? Only through the Holy Spirit. 'JUST AS YOU ARE IN ME AND I AM IN YOU MAY THEY ALSO BE IN US

How can believers be as one?

Only through the Holy Spirit, there is no other way, of one heart and one mind in the Spirit, in complete unity.

And Jesus prayed: That they(believers) may be one AS AS we are one

Its all about the Holy Spirit

I agree that in the Holy Spirit all Christians are one...
whether they agree on doctrine or not.

But let's ask this:
Are we ONE as Jesus and the Father are one?

Did Jesus agree with the Father on everything?
Do we?

Did Jesus always do the will of the Father?
Do we?


Jesus and God are One....
but not in the same way that we are One with Jesus.

Jesus is a divine Person..
we are not.

 

[saved by grace 101]

Did Jesus agree with the Father on everything?
Do we?

Did Jesus always do the will of the Father?
Do we?


Jesus and God are One....
but not in the same way that we are One with Jesus.

Jesus is a divine Person..
we are not.

Yes, Jesus agreed with the Father on everything.
What don't you agree with that the Father stated?
Are we one as Jesus and the Father are one?
Jesus prayed we would be. However, we are obviously not, these websites are a good example of that. The more we yield to the Spirit's leading the more we would be as one, the closer we come to complete unity, as Jesus prayed for believers.
The Holy Spirit fully resides in Christ, or the fulness of the Godhead bodily dwells in him, so we are not one with Jesus as Father and son are one, for we only have a portion of the Spirit as it were They are one through the Spirit, for that is the only way we can be as one. But we are in Father and Son as they are in each other according to Jesus
The divinity of the Father fully rests in his son
No we do not always do the will of the Father

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, Jesus agreed with the Father on everything.
What don't you agree with that the Father stated?
Are we one as Jesus and the Father are one?
Jesus prayed we would be. However, we are obviously not, these websites are a good example of that. The more we yield to the Spirit's leading the more we would be as one, the closer we come to complete unity, as Jesus prayed for believers.
The Holy Spirit fully resides in Christ, or the fulness of the Godhead bodily dwells in him, so we are not one with Jesus as Father and son are one, for we only have a portion of the Spirit as it were They are one through the Spirit, for that is the only way we can be as one. But we are in Father and Son as they are in each other according to Jesus
The divinity of the Father fully rests in his son
No we do not always do the will of the Father

Agreed on all except one sentence:

we are in Father and Son as they are in each other according to Jesus.

If you mean that we are required to abide in Christ
and Christ in us....then I agree.

 

[saved by grace 101]

Agreed on all except one sentence:

we are in Father and Son as they are in each other according to Jesus.

If you mean that we are required to abide in Christ
and Christ in us....then I agree.

Well I mean this sincerely, Im glad we can agree on nearly all of it, that's much better!!
Jesus said:
JUST AS you are in me and I am in you may they(believers) also be in us

 

[shepherdsword]

Do you really want to drive down this road SW? Think about it carefully before you tread into some s#$@ and quicksand. I have some planned for you if wish to continue. And it will be a very, very short dissertation, although for you, it will bury you.

You act like you actually have a case. Your position was rejected and marked at the council of Nicea. So yeah....I got something for you to. This is a heresy worth fighting.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you really want to drive down this road SW? Think about it carefully before you tread into some s#$@ and quicksand. I have some planned for you if wish to continue. And it will be a very, very short dissertation, although for you, it will bury you.

You're such a sweet person JustMe.

I have a feeling @shepherdsword is not cringing in fear.

And, of course, I'll be here too.

And, as ususal,,,
all talk
no scripture.

 

[shepherdsword]

@shepherdsword I considered that driving through and hitting the quicksand, as I expected you might do, could be excessive and too time-consuming to dig you out, and you might jump out before then anyway.

Therefore, I'll use the "death by a thousand cuts" approach instead. It's better for both of us and more efficient timewise.

Otherwise know as address every point ad nauseum in order to wear someone out. Prepare to have your position destroyed

Let me begin at the top of your post and work my way down...racing away here as I'm late for other things to set up for tomorrow....

----------on Deut 6:4 and the use of echad – the unity in plurality (a compound found in one) versus simply one – not a compound intended-------

From your post...

Yes, "Elohim" is plural. "One" is "echad," or a composite unity. Let's examine its usage:

Ex 26:6, 11 – “the fifty gold clasps are used to hold the curtains together so that the tent would be a unit” (echad).

2 Samuel 2:25 – “many soldiers made themselves into one group” (echad).

Gen 34:16 – “the men of Shechem suggest intermarriage with Jacob's children to become one (echad) people.”

In Ps.133:1, the brethren are to dwell together as one (in unity). 1 Sam.3:17 calls them one company. 1 Kings 7:42 refers to one tribe. 1 Kings 11:13 calls Israel one nation.

--------------------------------

I’m not sure what Elohim has to do with 'echad' in the verse in question, so I’ll set that aside for now—maybe for another discussion

If you don't understand that Elohim is plural and claiming to be one(echad) then the reason for your misunderstanding is obvious.

later.

These eight verses highlight part of your argument to suggest that 'echad' means a plurality in one, I suspect.

What do all these eight verses have in common?

They all describe different ways 'echad' is used to refer to more than one entity or person coming together to fulfill a purpose.

The purpose of their Unity pertains to creation and redemption

However, 'echad' in Deut 6:4 is not about completing a purpose

Yes...it is. It is showing their unity in creation (Let US make made in OUR image) and redeemption

or establishing a new identity foreign to a Hebrew. It affirms the nature of the one person, YHWH, known to be alone, the one and only God. It identifies the one God whom the people should worship with all their heart, mind, and soul every day—not a union or assembly of multiple entities. The context, as they say, is truly KING, and I believe you’ve overlooked this quality control aspect when interpreting scripture.

It represents a multiplicity in the Godhead that is declared to be "echad"

Read the next verse, Deut 6:5, if you will.

(Deut 6:5) “And you shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.”

Does this verse say or imply anything about multiple persons as one being? If, as you believe, 'echad' means unity among the three persons of God, why doesn’t the following verse instruct how to worship these various persons? Because it’s not about identifying or redefining who God is. 'Echad' in Deut 6:4 conveys the unique and solitary nature of the one God the people already knew.

Do I need to post this again? It shows that Elohim(plural) is one "echad" YHWH. Look at it carefully:

The fifty gold clasps have one purpose: to maintain the tent’s integrity. After assembly, the same fifty clasps can be used elsewhere for another purpose.

Similarly, many men form a unit or group for a purpose and plan. After assembly and reassembly for different purposes, the same men can be used elsewhere.

Intermarriage among one tribe of many common people would ensure the tribe’s integrity as one people.

The same applies to the different purposes in Ps 133:1, 1 Sam 3:17, 1 Kings 7:42, and 1 Kings 11:13.

In your words: “A man and a woman who come together in marriage are said to become one [echad] flesh. There are two persons, a man and a woman, coming together in marriage, and the two become one. Obviously, they do not become an absolute one, for they retain their separate personages; however, there is definitely a unity there.”

I’m glad you made that point that they remain two distinct people in marriage. That’s what marriage is about—the joining of two for a grand goal and serving many purposes as if truly one echad, though they really are not. Just like the Messiah Yeshua and his God, coming together as one for a major goal and accomplishing many purposes.

Deut 6:4’s 'echad' is not stating a purpose at all.

It is stating that they are one in the purpose of creation and redemption and require the love and obedience of Israel.