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Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Hobie, Oct 24, 2020.

  1. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    Many people know about God, but less actually are converted and follow God. As Christ did at Gethsemane we must set aside all and follow Gods will. Jesus came across someone who asked this same question:

    Matthew 19:16-17
    "16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.'

    This young ruler obviously lived “a good life.” He’d convinced himself that he had “made it” in both before others and in his spiritual life. Yet, for all that, he sensed something was missing.

    Was Jesus telling the rich young ruler to do something meritorious when He told him to keep the commandments? Obviously not, for salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast." But was Jesus telling this man plainly what the condition of salvation was? If we will enter into eternal life, what is necessary?

    What was Christ saying to the rich young ruler. Was obedience a condition or a requirement that we must meet before God can save us? If we look, Christ wanted more than obedience, Christ was showing that true obedience includes our outward deeds, but it is not just our outward deeds. True obedience is both the outward deed and the inner motive that prompts the deed.

    We see Christ get to this with the rich young ruler:
    Matthew 19:20-22
    "20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
    21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
    22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."

    In order to be saved a person must be converted, and conversion is what makes true obedience possible. Unconverted people cannot truly obey God, they can "talk" about God, but not fully "walk" with Him. The condition or the basis for our salvation is faith. The result of our salvation is obedience. Those who aren't really converted and will be lost at the end, can’t obey. The truly converted or saved at the end, will show the fruits of the Spirit..

    Ephesians 5:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
    8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
    9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
    10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
     
  2. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Hello Hobie
    I've often wondered at that as well. I wonder if it could have something to do with the fact that all Jews as well as Christ, were still under the law as, Christ had not died and risen yet? As we know, He came to fulfill the law because no human could ever keep and fulfill all of the law. Don't you ever wonder what this rich man thought when Christ rose from the grave? And, when he heard the gospel, perhaps he understood a bit more? Really don't know the answer but, we should certainly and naturally desire to keep His law, and learn to hate sin as He does.
    So, IMO...we don't "keep the law" for salvation itself, as that would do away with what Christ had already done - He "fulfilled" the law that no man could keep. He did it for us! :)
     
  3. brightfame52

    brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The only obedience necessary to save someone is the obedience of Christ. By His obedience alone many shall be made righteous/saved Rom 5:19
     
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  4. Christophany

    Christophany Well-Known Member

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    Mark 10:13-27
    13
    People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16 And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

    17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 "You know the commandments, ' DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'" 20 And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up." 21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

    23 And Jesus, looking around, * said to His disciples, "A How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!" 24 The disciples A were amazed at His words. But Jesus * answered again and said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 26 They were even more astonished and said to Him, " Then who can be saved?" 27 Looking at them, Jesus said, "With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."

    I have a different approach to the passage and Jesus was pointing out to the rich young ruler do you know who you are talking with ? Only God is good so why are you calling Me (a Teacher) good ?

    Jesus point in His questioning of the ruler was rhetorical in nature. Do you know who you are calling good? Only God is good. He was saying to the ruler "Do you know who I Am and who you are speaking too? If you read on it becomes obvious for Jesus turned him away from gaining eternal life. He knew what was in his heart and keeping him away from the kingdom. Only God knows what is in mans heart and can allow a person into His Kingdom. Jesus was clearly claiming to be God in this passage.

    No prophet, apostle or teacher has ever talked in this presumptuous way in which Jesus did in the gospels and especially in this passage in the synoptic gospel. The young ruler runs up to Jesus kneels to Him in worship and asks Him how can I obtain eternal life? Jesus answers back and said come "Follow ME!" Do you see what Jesus is claiming? He does not say, these are the teachings that God has given me or follow these rules and you will get into heaven. He did not say to follow God or submit to God. Jesus tells the man to follow Me! Only God has that prerogative.

    He was saying indirectly to the ruler, know that whom you are speaking to is God. He was letting the young ruler understand who he was talking to and addressing as good. Look at it this way, Is He saying He is not good, and therefore not God? Or is He saying that He is good, and the reason this man can call Him good is because He is God? I opt for the second statement.

    Let’s examine the context of the passage and what is going on when this man approaches Jesus. He says why do you call me good and points out to the man that only God is good. The man is unaware of His identity which Jesus who knew men’s hearts was aware of with the young ruler. This man thought of Jesus as just a mere man and not the Son of God. Jesus response was not one of denying His own sinlessness or deity. The context clearly shows just the opposite to be true. Jesus claims absolute authority over the young ruler by asking him to come and Follow Me. To call Him "good teacher" you better recognize who you are speaking to and this is exactly the point Jesus was getting across to the young ruler. Jesus is eternal life and the man was unaware of this truth which is rather obvious by his questions.

    How does one obtain eternal life?

    Jesus confronted him with His Lordship when He said come and follow Me. Jesus confronted the man's sin of covetousness. It was a sin of indulgence and materialism. He was indifferent to people who were poor and in need. So Jesus gave him the ultimate test, would he obey His Lordship? The antis and non trins get all hung up on who is good and cannot see past the plank in their own eyes to see what one must do to be saved. They're still in an unbelieving state and miss out on eternal life from its very source, Jesus. Rather sad indeed.

    If we further examine the context of the question asked by the young ruler in verse 13 we read; people were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 When Jesus saw this, He was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16 And He took the children in His arms, put His hands on them and blessed them. 17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to Him and fell on his knees before Him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 "Why do you call Me good?" Jesus answered. Let’s see what question was asked of Jesus. How can I get eternal life?" is the question. "Follow ME!" is the answer that he gets from Jesus. Do you see what He is claiming? He does NOT say, these are the teachings that God has given Me. Follow these rules and you will get to heaven. He did not say, "follow God or submit to God", but he said "Follow ME!". Jesus is Lord and had the authority to ask of mankind, Follow Me!

    John 1:6-8
    John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through Him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

    John 5:39-40
    39 " You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

    John 8:14
    " Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.

    John 8:18-20
    18 I am one who testifies for Myself; My other witness is the Father, who sent Me."
    19 Then they asked Him, "Where is your father?"
    "You do not know Me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew Me, you would know My Father also."

    Luke 24:27
    Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

    Luke 24:44-45
    44 Now He said to them, " These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

    Its all about Jesus from beginning to end. He is the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega ! He is the Great I Am. The Good Shepherd indeed !

    hope this helps,
     
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  5. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    on point, Hmmmmmm, there's hope after all... :D

    REMEMBER, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
  6. Christophany

    Christophany Well-Known Member

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    lol you are a funny guy.
     
  7. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    (smile), ... lol, are you using that as an adjective or a noun........ Just kidding... :p

    that's once you get to know me. I love the scripture and have total fun in them. I'm at peace with my God "and" Saviour.... it's a blast... yea


    REMEMBER, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
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  8. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    I may or may not take exception with this, depending on what you mean precisely. Jesus certainly was, by all appearances, asking for meritorious service when he informed this Jew he must obey the Law!

    When Paul told Christians they were not saved by Works, he was explaining to us that salvation was never intended to be by the *Law of Moses.* That system excluded Christ's atonement simply because Christ had not come yet. Jesus was *not* saying that Works play no part in what God requires of mankind! Paul, in using the word "Works," was abbreviating to suggest he was speaking specifically of *Works of the Law.* He was not dismissing Works altogether, and in fact required good works in the matter of living out our Christian lives. Without repentance there can be no salvation.

    True.

    Conversion is a matter of both works and accepting Christ in the heart. "Works," in this sense, don't refer to "Works of the Law," but rather, to the works of repentance that are demonstrated by a true conversion to Christ.

    You are absolutely right. Following law externally does not always indicate an inner conformity to the will of God. True conversion, therefore, is the acceptance of Christ in the heart, such that our will is conformed to his will all the time. We will "have no other gods," but will follow his voice always--not just when it serves our own independent will.

    True conversion allows us to not just do external rituals and good deeds, but to actually hear God's voice and follow Him daily. When we choose to do this, Christ is seated in our heart through the gift of the Holy Spirit. He comes when we make that choice, and are aware that this is God's plan for our lives.

    And if we know about God's spiritual gifts and mandate to testify to the Gospel, this will help us hear more clearly the voice of God so that we may obey Him. When we obey Him, we find greater spiritual awareness and are able to serve God better.

    We should never think that works are not part of either our conversion or our life. When we convert to Christ we are choosing to give up not just some of our works but *all* of our external form of religion to do what on the inside is a true and full devotion to God. This is what makes our conversion genuine--not that we avoid works altogether, but that we choose to do all our works through the inspiration of Christ on the inside of us.
     
  9. brightfame52

    brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Randy

    Without Salvation their can be no repentance!
     
  10. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree. Repentance is what leads to salvation. They are virtually simultaneous. If repentance is not part of salvation, then what prevents the whole world from considering themselves saved?

    Conversion to Christ is a choice, and that choice is, in itself, a form of repentance. If conversion is not repentance what is one choosing to convert from?
     
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  11. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    We obey the law as the result of salvation (1 John 3:9, 1 John 3:6, 1 John 3:4).

    More specifically, we walk after the Spirit rather than the flesh; and this is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 8:4).

    However, no one is justified (made righteous) through law-keeping (Romans 3:20, Galatians 2:16).

    Nevertheless, if you are not living a lifestyle of obedience, you ought to question as to whether or not you are genuinely born again (see 2 Corinthians 13:5); because good works are the sure result of salvation and will justify us (declare us righteous) (James 2:24) on our day of judgment; as being the evidence of a living and saving faith.
     
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  12. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    When we truly allow Christ into our hearts, we then begin the process of sanctification by faith, and put on the robe of Christ righteousness for the wedding feast He has for us.
     
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  13. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    I like your thoughts on this..
     
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  14. brightfame52

    brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    rk

    I knew that, very few understand salvation these days

    Thats backwards

    Repentance accompanies Salvation. One has to be saved to repent

    No its not, unless you mean its Gods choice !

    Conversion/Repentance, Faith are all part of the New Birth, which is solely a Sovereign act of God
     
  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    One has to repent to be saved.

    Otherwise you have the unorthodox idea that a man can be saved without repenting; since, if repenting is the result of salvation, salvation comes first: which makes repentance unnecessary for salvation.

    However, I think that if you only read the words of John the Baptist in Matthew 3, you will understand that repentance is necessary for salvation.

    Jesus' words also...in Luke 13:1-9.

    There are also the words of Ezekiel in Ezekiel 33:11-20.
     
  16. brightfame52

    brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    jbf

    Backwards, Salvation must be given in order to repent ! Otherwise men are dead in sin, alienated from God

    Its the other way around, the unorthodox idea is that dead man can repent without being saved first

    And it is

    Nah it accompanies Salvation

    Nothing has changed. As the Prophet once wrote Jer 31:19

    Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
     
  17. Christophany

    Christophany Well-Known Member

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    Yes and that results on a lifelong quest of pursuing Christ , following Him and being one of His disciples. Obedience is the result of being regenerated by His spirit.

    As we know salvation is of the Lord, by the Lord and through the Lord alone. Its all His doing which takes works out of the picture when is comes to how we are saved which is by His grace through faith as per Ephesians 2:8-10.

    So many people put the cart (works) before the horse (faith ).

    Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin. But salvation by faith(heads) is the side the coin always lands of when flipped for heads or tails. :)

    Good job defending biblical faith !
     
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  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Repentance comes before salvation.

    Otherwise a man can be saved, and then not repent; and he is saved.

    However, Jesus came to save us from our sins (Matthew 1:21).

    That is the bottom line.
     
  19. brightfame52

    brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    christop

    Exactly 1 Pet 1:2

    2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied
     
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  20. brightfame52

    brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    You still have it backwards
     
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