Is our Bible of 66 Books, the inerrant Word of God?

[Stranger]

If we have no way of knowing who is right then, according to your statement, we have no way of knowing the Truth. I don't think God is hiding The Truth from us.

All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable to teach, reprove, correct and instruct in justice so that the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work. But scripture (God) gives no list of Scriptures nor any method for discerning which Scripture is inspired by Him. Who has the authority to properly instruct, reprove, correct and what scripture was inspired? Man doe, with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Do I think I understand what I read? "How can I, unless some man (someone) shows me" (Acts 8:30-31).

Inspiration or interpretation can only be known upon some authority sent from God to man. I think you would agree the only possible competent authority would be either Christ or his Apostles or the successors of the Apostles. Who are the successors of the Apostles? The Church leaders who were appointed by the Apostles and then those men that were appointed by them and so on and so on (Apostolic Succession).

It is a circular argument because you are saying scripture is true because scripture says it is true. Someone (man) has to properly decide what scripture is inspired and interpret that scripture since scripture can not interpret itself and reveal it's own truth. You yourself have interpreted scripture to your own truth. Are you that someone that is spoken of in Acts 8?

I didn't say we have no way of knowing. You did and do. Don't blame it on me.

All Scripture is inspired by God. And we have the Scriptures, the 66 books of the Old and New Testament.

Nothing wrong with human teachers giving direction. But they are not the final authority. The Bible is, which you use to check these human teachers by. And the very instruction Phillip was giving to the Ethiopian we now have in the Scriptures.

The inspired writings of God carry their own authority. The people of God received them because they have that authority. Men or councils do not make a book inspired.

Yes Scripture is true because it is inspired by God. Actually Scripture does interpret Scripture. That is why you study the Scriptures. If that is circular, so be it.

Stranger

 

[tom55]

I didn't say we have no way of knowing. You did and do. Don't blame it on me.

All Scripture is inspired by God. And we have the Scriptures, the 66 books of the Old and New Testament.

Nothing wrong with human teachers giving direction. But they are not the final authority. The Bible is, which you use to check these human teachers by. And the very instruction Phillip was giving to the Ethiopian we now have in the Scriptures.

The inspired writings of God carry their own authority. The people of God received them because they have that authority. Men or councils do not make a book inspired.

Yes Scripture is true because it is inspired by God. Actually Scripture does interpret Scripture. That is why you study the Scriptures. If that is circular, so be it.

Stranger

I apologize. You did not say in this post we have no way of knowing the truth. I miss-read what you wrote. My mistake.

In past post you said:

[SIZE=medium]Post #21 Scripture is the final authority as I said. Every believer has the Holy Spirit. That leads him to the truth.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Post #25 Every believer has the 'authority' to read and interpret the Scripture. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Post #27 If the believer says something contrary to Scripture, then the believer is mistaken. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]My point is if 'every believer has the Holy Spirit that leads him to truth' AND every believer comes up with a different truth on the same passage in scripture....then there is no truth in scripture.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]If, as you say, "every believer has the 'authority' to read and interpret the Scripture" then that simply means no ONE has authority to correctly interpret scripture and that means there is no truth in scripture.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]You say, "If the believer says something contrary to Scripture, then the believer is mistaken". I ask you who decides if they are mistaken? We can only know if the believer is saying something contrary to scripture if someone has the authority to say what the Truth of scripture is. Since you do not believe anyone has the authority to say what the Truth of scripture is then there is no truth in scripture according to you.[/SIZE]

 

[Stranger]

I apologize. You did not say in this post we have no way of knowing the truth. I miss-read what you wrote. My mistake.

In past post you said:

[SIZE=medium]Post #21 Scripture is the final authority as I said. Every believer has the Holy Spirit. That leads him to the truth.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Post #25 Every believer has the 'authority' to read and interpret the Scripture. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Post #27 If the believer says something contrary to Scripture, then the believer is mistaken. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]My point is if 'every believer has the Holy Spirit that leads him to truth' AND every believer comes up with a different truth on the same passage in scripture....then there is no truth in scripture.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]If, as you say, "every believer has the 'authority' to read and interpret the Scripture" then that simply means no ONE has authority to correctly interpret scripture and that means there is no truth in scripture.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]You say, "If the believer says something contrary to Scripture, then the believer is mistaken". I ask you who decides if they are mistaken? We can only know if the believer is saying something contrary to scripture if someone has the authority to say what the Truth of scripture is. Since you do not believe anyone has the authority to say what the Truth of scripture is then there is no truth in scripture according to you.[/SIZE]

No one knows the complete truth at once. It is a learning process. In that process we as believers can make mistakes. But it is still the Scripture that is the authority. If we made a mistake, it was in Scripture. And it is Scripture that is shown us, either through the help of others or the Holy Spirit, that will correct that mistake. It is not because of someone or some council that makes that correction.

Again, 1 John 2:20,27 says every believer has the authority to read and interpret Scripture. That doesn't put the final authority in the believer. It is in the Scripture. The Scripture is truth, period. It behooves the believer to learn the Scriptures. If a believer makes a mistake it doesn't take away from the truth of the Scripture.

No believer or council has the final authority to say what Scripture is saying. He or they can offer their opinions. That doesn't mean I as a believer must buy it. I compare what they are saying with the Scripture. They may offer some good insight. I may agree with them. But if I agree with them it is not because they say so. It is because I believe the Scripture agrees with them. So, you are wrong in interpreting me as saying there is no truth in Scripture. That is your interpretation. What I say is that the Scripture is true and is the final authority.

Stranger

 

[tom55]

No one knows the complete truth at once. It is a learning process. In that process we as believers can make mistakes. But it is still the Scripture that is the authority. If we made a mistake, it was in Scripture. And it is Scripture that is shown us, either through the help of others or the Holy Spirit, that will correct that mistake. It is not because of someone or some council that makes that correction.

Again, 1 John 2:20,27 says every believer has the authority to read and interpret Scripture. That doesn't put the final authority in the believer. It is in the Scripture. The Scripture is truth, period. It behooves the believer to learn the Scriptures. If a believer makes a mistake it doesn't take away from the truth of the Scripture.

No believer or council has the final authority to say what Scripture is saying. He or they can offer their opinions. That doesn't mean I as a believer must buy it. I compare what they are saying with the Scripture. They may offer some good insight. I may agree with them. But if I agree with them it is not because they say so. It is because I believe the Scripture agrees with them. So, you are wrong in interpreting me as saying there is no truth in Scripture. That is your interpretation. What I say is that the Scripture is true and is the final authority.

Stranger

No one knows after 2,000 years?

The Council of Jerusalem did not have final authority? The Council of Jerusalem didn't make a correction binding on all Christians? What you believe and what scripture says is opposite of each other.

Your belief does not say that Scripture is true and the final authority. Your belief is that if you agree with their interpretation then they got it right. If you disagree with them that means they got it wrong. That means YOU have the final authority. My guess is that YOU don't have the final authority. But, that is just a guess.

 

[mjrhealth]

Both are taught by Churches that believe they are led by the Holy Spirit.

You are the funny man!!

1Jn_5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jn_5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

And that is how we know the truth, Jesus is teh truth and in Him there is no lie..God doesnt have to agree with teh bible, teh bible is supposed to agree with God, you got it all backwards.

 

[mjrhealth]

All Scripture is inspired by God. And we have the Scriptures, the 66 books of the Old and New Testament.

Whch part is scriptuure, by definition the Koran is scripture as is any holy book that othere religions hold in high regard.

 

[Stranger]

No one knows after 2,000 years?

The Council of Jerusalem did not have final authority? The Council of Jerusalem didn't make a correction binding on all Christians? What you believe and what scripture says is opposite of each other.

Your belief does not say that Scripture is true and the final authority. Your belief is that if you agree with their interpretation then they got it right. If you disagree with them that means they got it wrong. That means YOU have the final authority. My guess is that YOU don't have the final authority. But, that is just a guess.

I believe and know that Scripture is the final authority.

I didn't say the council of Jerusalem had final authority. Authority is in the Bible. If I make a mistake in what Scripture is saying, it doesn't change the fact that authority is in the Bible. It just means I need to learn more.

I just said Scripture is the final authority. But you tell me I don't say that? The believer has authority to read and interpret the Scripture, as I have already said. (1John 2:20,27) I never claim to have final authority. You keep accusing me of that.

Stranger

 

[mjrhealth]

The believer has authority to read and interpret the Scripture, as I have already said. (1John 2:20,27)

2Pe_1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

And the scripture has nothing to do with "your" interpretation is is aboiut the Holy Spirirt revealing things to those who believe, He wasnt sent to teach teh bible he was sent to reveal teh truth, Jesus is teh truth yet so many deny Him for teh bible.

 

[junobet]

When Jesus Christ, God The Son, said "It is written", He set His seal in the final authority of the written Word of God.

Oh yes, Jesus was well versed in the Hebrew Bible and could not only quote from it but weigh it as he frequently did when He discussed it with the Pharisees. And here and there he boldly said “But I say to you”. You know why He could teach people “as one having authority, and not as the scribes”(Mt. 7:29)? Because it is Him who has the final authority: “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” (Mt. 28:18) And it is Him who is the actual Word of God:
“1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.” (John 1:1-5)

No one is denying that God is the final authority. But you and others are making a division between authority in God and authority in the written Word of God.

No one is saying God is confined within the pages of the Bible. But the Bible is His written Word and inspired by Him and given to the believers to live by. And thus is the final authority.

No one is saying the Bible is God. I am saying I give the Bible the place God gives it, as His written Word, and final authority for the believer. I suppose you think David worshipped the Scriptures. Read (Ps.119). Did David make an idol when he wrote that?

Stranger

David had a Bible of 66 Books? When God “spoke” in the OT, did He throw down scrolls from heaven? Think!

Stranger, I’m a Sola Scriptura Protestant myself. But I uphold Sola Scriptura in the way that Luther actually meant it when he declared it. Luther loved the Bible. He saw it as the sole valid reference point for Christian doctrine as opposed to spiritualist visions and tradition. But Luther would not have signed the Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy and He was not prone to Bibliolatry: “This one Word of God, the proclaimed gospel promise about the incarnate Word (also in the OT), provides the key and guide to the meaning of the Word of God in a tertiary sense, namely, the Word of God as writings of the prophets and the apostles. Not surprising, Luther sometimes made a sharp distinction between God and Scripture: “God and the Scripture of God are two things, no less than the Creator and the creature are two things.”[49] Thus the canonical Scriptures and the Word of God are distinct from one another, though clearly related. “Most of the time Luther, like the Scriptures themselves, did not mean the Scriptures when he spoke about ‘the Word of God.””
http://thedaystarjournal.com/holy-scripture-in-the-thought-of-martin-luther/

 

[kerwin]

Do Christ's words 'It is written' apply to the Old Testament?

If you are not a translator, what good does the original languages do you? You are still trusting anothers translation. Arn't you? And, you are still translationg from copies, not the originals. What now? Who do you believe?

Stranger

His words often refer to the old testament and never to the new sentiment. It is Peter's defense of Paul's words that implies the later's words were beginning to be considered part of the Writings at that time.

I realize I am going from copies by at least there in what is thought to be the original language and so dodge the difficulty of translation. Those making the texts do pick and choose among manuscripts to determine what words they feel are more authentic. Some argue the AV of the KJV is more accurate because it is based on a different text type than many modern versions. I happen to think all English languages are flawed and at leas some of those based on the "original language". The Spirit is more trustworthy but there are also counterfeit spirits because Satan is not going to make it easy and God tests the human heart.

I trust in God to lead me by the Spirit because I have no other choice. I use the written word of Scripture but God translates it for me through his Spirit or I am lost. I hope others test what I say and do by the Spirit to see if it is true. It all boils down to God has mercy on those he has mercy and compassion on those he has compassion. I myself can do nothing but trust and do those things he puts in front of me to do.

 

[Stranger]

Oh yes, Jesus was well versed in the Hebrew Bible and could not only quote from it but weigh it as he frequently did when He discussed it with the Pharisees. And here and there he boldly said “But I say to you”. You know why He could teach people “as one having authority, and not as the scribes”(Mt. 7:29)? Because it is Him who has the final authority: “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” (Mt. 28:18) And it is Him who is the actual Word of God:
“1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.” (John 1:1-5)



David had a Bible of 66 Books? When God “spoke” in the OT, did He throw down scrolls from heaven? Think!

Stranger, I’m a Sola Scriptura Protestant myself. But I uphold Sola Scriptura in the way that Luther actually meant it when he declared it. Luther loved the Bible. He saw it as the sole valid reference point for Christian doctrine as opposed to spiritualist visions and tradition. But Luther would not have signed the Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy and He was not prone to Bibliolatry: “This one Word of God, the proclaimed gospel promise about the incarnate Word (also in the OT), provides the key and guide to the meaning of the Word of God in a tertiary sense, namely, the Word of God as writings of the prophets and the apostles. Not surprising, Luther sometimes made a sharp distinction between God and Scripture: “God and the Scripture of God are two things, no less than the Creator and the creature are two things.”[49] Thus the canonical Scriptures and the Word of God are distinct from one another, though clearly related. “Most of the time Luther, like the Scriptures themselves, did not mean the Scriptures when he spoke about ‘the Word of God.””
http://thedaystarjournal.com/holy-scripture-in-the-thought-of-martin-luther/

And Jesus said " It is written". Meaning the written Word was final authority.

No, David did not have 66 books. But David had Scripture. And wrote Scripture. Do you think David made an idol of the written Word?

No, God did not throw down scrolls from Heaven. But He did write on Tables of Stone. And He inspired men to write His word.

To have the same view of Scripture as God does is not worshiping the Bible.

You may be Sola Scriptura, but your view of Scripture is not the same as mine.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

His words often refer to the old testament and never to the new sentiment. It is Peter's defense of Paul's words that implies the later's words were beginning to be considered part of the Writings at that time.

I realize I am going from copies by at least there in what is thought to be the original language and so dodge the difficulty of translation. Those making the texts do pick and choose among manuscripts to determine what words they feel are more authentic. Some argue the AV of the KJV is more accurate because it is based on a different text type than many modern versions. I happen to think all English languages are flawed and at leas some of those based on the "original language". The Spirit is more trustworthy but there are also counterfeit spirits because Satan is not going to make it easy and God tests the human heart.

I trust in God to lead me by the Spirit because I have no other choice. I use the written word of Scripture but God translates it for me through his Spirit or I am lost. I hope others test what I say and do by the Spirit to see if it is true. It all boils down to God has mercy on those he has mercy and compassion on those he has compassion. I myself can do nothing but trust and do those things he puts in front of me to do.

When Christ says 'It is written' doesn't that tell you that He places authority in the written Word. He didn't say 'I'm telling you'. Though He could have. He didn't say 'the Father tells you'. Thuogh He could have. He said, 'It is written'.

Stranger

 

[tom55]

When Christ says 'It is written' doesn't that tell you that He places authority in the written Word. He didn't say 'I'm telling you'. Though He could have. He didn't say 'the Father tells you'. Thuogh He could have. He said, 'It is written'.

Stranger

When Christ said "It is written" he wasn't talking about the NT since it had not yet been written.

Where in the NT did Jesus tell the Apostles to write down what he said? He did tell them in the great commission to teach them to obey everything I have commanded you.

The NT wasn't written or completed for SEVERAL years until AFTER Jesus died. The first Christians didn't have the "authority of the written word". They had oral teaching and tradition to guide them.

You say scripture is the final authority but you don't say who has the authority to properly interpret scripture. You present a circular argument. You say scripture is the truth because scripture says it is the truth and if you don't believe me that scripture is the truth then read scripture and you will see it is the truth. And if you, Tom55, read scripture and improperly interpret the truth other believers will let you know you are wrong. So I ask you; Who gets to choose who those "other believers" are? If I get to choose who those other believers are I will choose the ones that agree with me. If you get to choose who those other believers are you are going to choose the ones who disagree with me. That will always make me right and you wrong. So, as you can plainly see, your theory is not logical or based on scripture.

 

[Stranger]

When Christ said "It is written" he wasn't talking about the NT since it had not yet been written.

Where in the NT did Jesus tell the Apostles to write down what he said? He did tell them in the great commission to teach them to obey everything I have commanded you.

The NT wasn't written or completed for SEVERAL years until AFTER Jesus died. The first Christians didn't have the "authority of the written word". They had oral teaching and tradition to guide them.

You say scripture is the final authority but you don't say who has the authority to properly interpret scripture. You present a circular argument. You say scripture is the truth because scripture says it is the truth and if you don't believe me that scripture is the truth then read scripture and you will see it is the truth. And if you, Tom55, read scripture and improperly interpret the truth other believers will let you know you are wrong. So I ask you; Who gets to choose who those "other believers" are? If I get to choose who those other believers are I will choose the ones that agree with me. If you get to choose who those other believers are you are going to choose the ones who disagree with me. That will always make me right and you wrong. So, as you can plainly see, your theory is not logical or based on scripture.

First things first. Christ gave authority to the 'written' Word? Didn't He? Did not Christ see the written Word as the final authority?

I did say who has the authority to properly interpret. Every believer. Remember? (1John 2:20,27)

Let the Scriptures speak.

Stranger

 

[mjrhealth]

First things first. Christ gave authority to the 'written' Word? Didn't He? Did not Christ see the written Word as the final authority?

No He did not.. Do yoy think God is that stupid, just look at al the religions created by man taking the bible as the fianl authority, justy looak at al the arguements even just on these forums by peole who would rather believe the bible than God. We rae given teh Holy Spirirt for a reason, to teach us the truth, which so few desire.

 

[kerwin]

When Christ says 'It is written' doesn't that tell you that He places authority in the written Word. He didn't say 'I'm telling you'. Though He could have. He didn't say 'the Father tells you'. Thuogh He could have. He said, 'It is written'.

Stranger

Jesus pointed to the Scripture of his day as the word of God. There was division and he did not seem to mind versions whose words conflicted as he used both the LXX and the ancestor of what Jews often use today. I just strive to figure out why it was not something he considered important.

 

[mjrhealth]

as the word of God.

Never did He ever say, this is teh word of God", He said it is written to show that porophecy had come to fruition,

Luk_21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

 

[Smitty]

Gospels and Acts were written AFTER the letters of Paul, and contradict the letters of Paul.

I wouldn't rely on the Gospels and Acts.

 

[tom55]

First things first. Christ gave authority to the 'written' Word? Didn't He? Did not Christ see the written Word as the final authority?

I did say who has the authority to properly interpret. Every believer. Remember? (1John 2:20,27)

Let the Scriptures speak.

Stranger

Interpret this sentence for me:

I did not say you stole the money.

 

[epostle1]

There is no verse in the Bible that says scripture is the final authority. It's definitely authoritive, but not by itself.

2 Timothy 3: [12] Indeed all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
[13] while evil men and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived.
[14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, (Tradition)
knowing from whom you learned it (Magisterium)
[15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. (Scriptures)
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Note verse 14-15. It admonishes Timothy to do three things:

1) Remember what you have learned and firmly believed (Tradition)
2) Know from whom you learned it (Magisterium)
3) Know you have the Scriptures

The Bible on St. Paul's list comes in third, not first. He actually gives here the traditional Catholic teaching on the three sources of sound teaching.

In verse 15 he goes into an excursus on the Bible. This brief excursus emphasizes the value of the Bible and recommends a fourfold method of exegesis. This verse was used in the pre-Reformation Church as a proof text for the Quadriga which was the standard Catholic approach to the Bible. The Quadriga method used the following four categories:

Literal/Literary (teaching) - the text as it is written
Analogical (reproof) - matters of faith
Anagogical (correction) - matters of hope/prophecy
Moral (training in righteousness) - matters of charity

The analogical, anagogical and moral senses of the Bible were known collectively as the spiritual senses. affirmed herehttp://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm
The 'reformers' rejected the BIBLICAL fourfold method of exegesis in favor of a more literal approach, and ignored 2 Tim 3:16http://biblia.com/bible/hcsb/2 Tim 3.16.