Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, bascally Greek Myths or just Mistranslation.
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The very “ Idea” of the necessity for a Purgatory spits on the Blood Of Jesus Christ and shows an utter ignorance of how Salvation works . Its a Satanic little Fairy Tale That says essentially that the Shed Blood Of Jesus was inadequate to get the job done...
It’s like saying , “ By Grace you are Saved , that Plus a little punishment and torture on the side, lest any man should boast” . Demonic Hog-Wash .I wonder how many Souls that Fairy Tale has sent to Hell? Why turn to God or why do anything? Why fear Hell ? Just “ work it off in Purgatory” ....
Yeah, I know you claim it is for those that are already saved.... I read up on it . Jesus says “ come on in” yet once you do that andcyou getvto talking to the Saints.....” THEY” say something different....”yeah, you might be Saved, but you need to be tortured a little bit , otherwise you won’t ever feel comfortable here.....you won’t feel like you really “ deserve” it until you get punished “
Fools.....one NEVER “ deserves” it .....one is never “ Worthy”....we are “MADE” Worthy by the Blood Of The Lamb....That Blood was responsible for every ounce of “ Purification” a man will EVER need ....adding to that Blood is no different than Adding to the Gospel .....buy that Garbage and you will “ Fall from Grace” —- TEACH that Garbage and you are in Serious Jeopardy Of being “ Accursed” —- that would entail one by-passing your little “Purgatory” pretend world and going straight to Hell....
I bet when Satan came up with the idea of Purgatory ..... I bet he hesitated for awhile.....He must have though to himself , “ There ain’t NO WAY anybody’s gonna buy “ THIS” Nonsense....Lo and Behold , Satan threw it out there and confused, lost souls actually bought it.....Satan is STILL rolling his eyes every time somebody falls for it.......Flat - Out UnBiblical. Flat-Out Ridiculous......Flat- Out Spitting on the Value and the TOTAL efficiency of Christ’s Blood to make you Righteous and PERFECT in the eyes of God . A PERFECT, Righteous man has no need to be “ Purified” .....
Somebody said that the Catholic Church has not changed in 2000 years .....you are right....and you brag as if your Ignorance were a Virtue.People can get saved, “ in spite of” the Catholic Church .....Amazing Grace indeed....
It’s like saying , “ By Grace you are Saved , that Plus a little punishment and torture on the side, lest any man should boast” . Demonic Hog-Wash .I wonder how many Souls that Fairy Tale has sent to Hell? Why turn to God or why do anything? Why fear Hell ? Just “ work it off in Purgatory” ....
Yeah, I know you claim it is for those that are already saved.... I read up on it . Jesus says “ come on in” yet once you do that andcyou getvto talking to the Saints.....” THEY” say something different....”yeah, you might be Saved, but you need to be tortured a little bit , otherwise you won’t ever feel comfortable here.....you won’t feel like you really “ deserve” it until you get punished “
Fools.....one NEVER “ deserves” it .....one is never “ Worthy”....we are “MADE” Worthy by the Blood Of The Lamb....That Blood was responsible for every ounce of “ Purification” a man will EVER need ....adding to that Blood is no different than Adding to the Gospel .....buy that Garbage and you will “ Fall from Grace” —- TEACH that Garbage and you are in Serious Jeopardy Of being “ Accursed” —- that would entail one by-passing your little “Purgatory” pretend world and going straight to Hell....
I bet when Satan came up with the idea of Purgatory ..... I bet he hesitated for awhile.....He must have though to himself , “ There ain’t NO WAY anybody’s gonna buy “ THIS” Nonsense....Lo and Behold , Satan threw it out there and confused, lost souls actually bought it.....Satan is STILL rolling his eyes every time somebody falls for it.......Flat - Out UnBiblical. Flat-Out Ridiculous......Flat- Out Spitting on the Value and the TOTAL efficiency of Christ’s Blood to make you Righteous and PERFECT in the eyes of God . A PERFECT, Righteous man has no need to be “ Purified” .....
Somebody said that the Catholic Church has not changed in 2000 years .....you are right....and you brag as if your Ignorance were a Virtue.People can get saved, “ in spite of” the Catholic Church .....Amazing Grace indeed....
BreadOfLife
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WRONG.
Not only does the Biblical doctrine of a Final Purification (Purgatory) NOT spit on the blood of Christ - it attests to the mercy of God and shows us what was made available to us by the death and resurrection of our Lord.
Unlike the UNBIBLICAL Protestant idea that we all get to sneak into Heaven under God's nose because we're "covered" with the righteousness of Christ - the Biblical doctriine of Purgatory shows us that God actually MAKES us pure so as to enter.
Rev. 21:27 assures that NOTHING impure can enter Heaven - not even Luther's "snow-covered dunghills" . . .
Ho- Hum....it takes very little to blast the Satanic Fairy Tale Of Purgatory right out of its filthy water.....” By His ONE Sacrifice” .... “The Blood Of Jesus Christ has Cleansed us from “ ALL” Sin......Let’s See How you Twist Scripture to get out of this one....should be interesting....and of course—- WRONG!
BreadOfLife
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Final Purification (Purgatory) doesn't negate Christ's ONE sacrifice - it certifies it.
It is BECAUSE of what He did that I can be MADE perfect. I won't have to try to "sneak" into Heaven like Luther's "snow-covered dunghills" because He will have MADE me perfect before entering. NONE of us can enter unless we ARE perfect (Rev. 21:27).
As if ANYBODY could "sneak in" anyway . . .
Illuminator
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It's typical of anti-Catholics like Blood Bought to create myths about purgatory, then knock it down. It's called a straw man fallacy.
1 Peter 3:19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—
1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Hebrews 9:27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect
1 Corinthians 3:13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Matthew 5:26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
Blood Bought calls these verses a Satanic fairy tale.
1 Peter 3:19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—
1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Hebrews 9:27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect
1 Corinthians 3:13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Matthew 5:26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
Blood Bought calls these verses a Satanic fairy tale.
So Purgatory makes us pure and clean, what happened to Christ. This is not a Biblical doctrine or teaching, it is from another...
GISMYS_7
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BreadOfLife
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No - it is precisely BECAUSE of Christ that we are purified.
Without His sacrifice, this purufucation would not be possible.
Zao is life
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He purifies us while we are alive. Not after we have died. That's your addition to the teaching of the apostles again.
Hebrews 12
6 for whom the Lord loves He chastens, and He scourges every son whom He receives."
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father does not chasten?
8 But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are bastards and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh who corrected us, and we gave them reverence. Shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?
10 For truly they chastened us for a few days according to their own pleasure, but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness.
11 Now chastening for the present does not seem to be joyous, but grievous. Nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who are exercised by it.
Jesus did not give anyone the authority to change or add to the doctrine which was once, and once for all laid down by His 12 apostles (12 apostles, which includes Paul, not one apostle), and their doctrine is His doctrine, and Paul taught that to live is Christ and to die is gain, because those who die in Christ remain in Christ after their death, and will be at home with the Lord. Jesus is not in any "purgatory".
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BreadOfLife
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This is about our ongoing sanctification. Salvation is a lifelong process, whereby we are daily conformed to God’s perfect will.
As I pointed out before – Rev. 21:27 states that nothing unclean can enter Heaven
Contrary to Protestant teaching – we don’t get to sneak into Heaven “covered” by Jesus’s righteousness.
He actually MAKES us righteous and pure before entering into Heaven 1 Cor. 3:12-15.
Nobody “changed” anything.
Final Purification is ONLY possible through Christ.
This teaching goes back to the OT, where we see Judah Maccabees praying for the men of his army, killed in battle. 2 Macc. 12:42-46, Verse 44 says, “… for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.”
This is one of the reasons your Protestant Fathers rejected the 7 Deuterocanonical Books and portions of Daniel and Esther.
Matt. 5:25-26 tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”
The OT is filled with references to God as the great Refiner, who takes the raw materials and refines them with fire into precious metals (Mal. 3:3, Jer. 6:27-30, Ezek. 22:18, Psalm 119:119, Psalm 37:20, Zech. 13:9, Isa 48:10).
We see this example in the NT as we are told in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that the day (judgment) will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed: “If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”
- This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER ‐ and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
- This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED ‐ ad there is NO salvation in Hell.
- This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification.
Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there is purification after death for some. Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.
Illuminator
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The doctrine of purgatory originated in undeveloped form in Judaism, not the Catholic Church. Martin Luther, out of his mental illness, invented Justification by Faith Alone, which eliminated purgatory. His hatred for the Jews is well documented. Objectors to purgatory are following a man made tradition invented in the middle ages and settle for a "Reader's Digest" version of the Bible and then blame the CC for a doctrine they refuse to understand.
The bulk of Newman’s extraordinary work is devoted to the exposition of a series of analogies, showing conclusively that the Protestant static conception of the Church (both historically and theologically) is incoherent and false. He argues, for example, that notions of suffering, or “vague forms of the doctrine of Purgatory,” were universally accepted, by and large, in the first four centuries of the Church, whereas, the same cannot be said for the doctrine of original sin, which is agreed upon by Protestants and Catholics.
Protestants falsely argue that purgatory is a later corruption, but it was present early on and merely developed. Original sin, however, was equally if not more so, subject to development. One cannot have it both ways. If purgatory is unacceptable on grounds of its having undergone development, then original sin must be rejected with it. Contrariwise, if original sin is accepted notwithstanding its own development, then so must purgatory be accepted. [“Development of Doctrine: A Corruption of Biblical Teaching?”:
The Jews offered atonement and prayer for their deceased brethren, who had clearly violated Mosaic Law. Such a practice presupposes purgatory, since those in heaven wouldn’t need any help, and those in hell are beyond it. The Jewish people, therefore, believed in prayer for the dead (whether or not this book is scriptural; Protestants deny that it is). [A Biblical Defense of Catholicism,
Here I gave the precise reason why some semblance of purgatory must have been presupposed. For the Reformed tradition, as well as for most Protestants, save a few like C. S. Lewis or John Wesley, there is no third state after death (after Christ’s death and resurrection and ascension). Only heaven and hell exist, and it is useless and meaningless to pray for souls in either, as I argued in the passage.
Therefore, the question is, why did the Jews “pray for the dead” and “make atonement for the dead” as the passage in 2 Maccabees states? They did because they assumed that the dead were still in some sort of state in which they could be aided by intercessory prayer. (they still do) And that can only be a third state besides heaven and hell. This is what the people whose practice is described must have believed. It doesn’t require a fully developed notion of purgatory; only an intermediate state of some sort besides heaven and hell: a place where they can still be helped by prayer on their behalf.
An argument could be made (over against this scenario) for retroactive prayer (since God is outside of time and can quite arguably apply and answer prayers regardless of whether a person is dead) — even Martin Luther held to something like this. That leaves only some kind of third state as an explanation of prayer for the dead as historical Jewish practice.
That I was not holding that biblical descriptions evidence purgatory in its developed dogmatic form, was made very clear in my later commentary in this book on Luke 16:19-31 (Lazarus and the rich man) and three related passages:
I habitually either qualify or presuppose doctrinal development or make clear in context that I am not claiming that Scripture “proves” a full-blown doctrine of purgatory. Hence, I used to have a paper up, entitled, “50 Bible Passages On Purgatory and Analogous Processes”.
The very title shows that I was not maintaining that each passage was explicit, and that there were analogies of process that suggested the concept of purgatory.
The Bible indeed provides much evidence or indication of purgatory. I collected 25 passages in A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, complete with massive support of Church fathers, who certainly believed that purgatory was in mind in these passages. But that is different from a position that would deny any development occurred. “Evidence” is not used in this sense to mean “absolute proof.”
A hundred times in my writings, I’ve stated that the Catholic notion of “biblical evidence” is not absolute proof, but rather, consistency and harmony with Scripture and a given doctrine, including implicit and indirect, deductive indications.
Purgatory: My Biblical Defense Of Its Doctrinal Development
I habitually either qualify or presuppose doctrinal development or make clear in context that I am not claiming that Scripture explicitly "proves" a full-blown doctrine of purgatory.
www.patheos.com
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Marymog
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You suggest that OR ask, with no question mark at the end of your sentence, Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, bascally {sic} Greek Myths or just Mistranslation."
Sounds like you already decided!! Therefore, no quotes from Scripture will convince you?
Illuminator
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Scripture
I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.Matt. 5:48 – Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Luke 12:47-48 – when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.
Luke 16:19-31 – in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
1 Cor. 15:29-30 – Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.
Phil. 2:10 – every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 – Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Heb. 12:14 – without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
Heb. 12:23 – the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.
1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 – Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.
Rev. 21:4 – God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.
Rev. 21:27 – nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.
Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals.
- First, when Jesus uses the word “paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection.
- Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven).
- Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
Baruch 3:4 – Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.
Zech. 9:11 – God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.
2 Macc. 12:43-45 – the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
I. Purification After Death By Fire
Heb. 12:29 – God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).1 Cor. 3:10-15 – works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).
1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).
1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.
1 Cor. 3:13 – when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).
1 Cor. 3:17 – but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 – purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.
1 Peter 1:6-7 – Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.
Jude 1:23 – the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.
Rev. 3:18-19 – Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).
Dan 12:10 – Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.
Wis. 3:5-6 – the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.
Sirach 2:5 – for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.
Zech. 13:8-9 – God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.
Purgatory - Scripture Catholic
Contents1 Scripture1.1 I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness1.2 II. Purification After Death By Fire2 Tradition / Church Fathers2.1 I. The Early Church’s Belief in Purgatory Scripture I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus...
www.scripturecatholic.com
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Very true, Purgatory has no biblical support, it basically is from pagan origin. The idea of purgatory has roots in ancient pagan beliefs and appears in the writings of Plato and in other pagan writers, and differed from the Hades. This idea which they called 'celestial hades' came from myths and suggested a place where the souls would go after death and claimed they would then be reincarnated or get to a higher plane of existence. We can see how it denies the basic doctrines of justification/sanctification by faith, and throws aside putting our trust in Jesus Christ as our Savior.
Illuminator
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So you deny the 50 supporting verses in post #74 and 75 with willful blindness.
It's basically from Judaic origin. More arrogant denials.
Parallels with pagan beliefs does not prove the Judaic understanding came from them. You are forced to demonize the beliefs of ancient Israel, which you don't fulfill in any meaningful sense in the first place.
For the second time:
The Jews offered atonement and prayer for their deceased brethren, who had clearly violated Mosaic Law. Such a practice presupposes purgatory, since those in heaven wouldn’t need any help, and those in hell are beyond it. The Jewish people, therefore, believed in prayer for the dead (whether or not this book is scriptural; Protestants deny that it is). [A Biblical Defense of Catholicism,
Here I gave the precise reason why some semblance of purgatory must have been presupposed. For the Reformed tradition, as well as for most Protestants, save a few like C. S. Lewis or John Wesley, there is no third state after death (after Christ’s death and resurrection and ascension). Only heaven and hell exist, and it is useless and meaningless to pray for souls in either, as I argued in the passage.
Therefore, the question is, why did the Jews “pray for the dead” and “make atonement for the dead” as the passage in 2 Maccabees states? They did because they assumed that the dead were still in some sort of state in which they could be aided by intercessory prayer. (they still do) And that can only be a third state besides heaven and hell. This is what the people whose practice is described must have believed. It doesn’t require a fully developed notion of purgatory; only an intermediate state of some sort besides heaven and hell: a place where they can still be helped by prayer on their behalf.
Instead of coming to terms with Jewish realities, you repeat the same "faith alone" lie that the Bible doesn't teach.John Calvin:
6. Their purgatory cannot now give us much trouble, since with this axe we have struck it, thrown it down, and overturned it from its very foundations. I cannot agree with some who think that we ought to dissemble in this matter, and make no mention of purgatory, from which (as they say) fierce contests arise, and very little edification can be obtained. I myself would think it right to disregard their follies did they not tend to serious consequences. But since purgatory has been reared on many, and is daily propped up by new blasphemies; since it produces many grievous offences, assuredly it is not to be connived at, however it might have been disguised for a time, that without any authority from the word of God, it was devised by prying audacious rashness, that credit was procured for it by fictitious revelations, the wiles of Satan, and that certain passages of Scripture were ignorantly wrested to its support. Although the Lord bears not that human presumption should thus force its way to the hidden recesses of his judgments; although he has issued a strict prohibition against neglecting his voice, and making inquiry at the dead (Deut. xviii. 11), and permits not his word to be so erroneously contaminated.
Praying for the souls in purgatory is not at all the same as necromancy, or sorcery, or occult, etc.:
Invocation of the Saints = Necromancy? [10-18-08]
Secondly, if God had supposedly forbidden all contact with the dead whatsoever, how is it that the prophet Samuel actually appeared and talked to Saul, and prophesied of his coming doom (1 Sam 28:3-25)? Why would God allow that? Since God can’t contradict Himself, this must necessarily be an error on Calvin’s part, and an example of his novel and anti-traditional theology “ignorantly wrested.”
Let us grant, however, that all this might have been tolerated for a time as a thing of no great moment;
Purgatory having been believed by the Christian Church for the “time” of 1500 years till Calvin arbitrarily and groundlessly decided it was unChristian . . .
yet when the expiation of sins is sought elsewhere than in the blood of Christ, and satisfaction is transferred to others, silence were most perilous.
Of course, nothing in the doctrine of purgatory denies, or is contrary to the blood of Christ (since, in the first place, all who are there are already saved and will go to heaven in due course). Calvin simply falsely assumes it is, offering no biblical proof to the contrary. Radical anti-Catholics do the same thing as presently.
We are bound, therefore, to raise our voice to its highest pitch, and cry aloud that purgatory is a deadly device of Satan; that it makes void the cross of Christ; that it offers intolerable insult to the divine mercy; that it undermines and overthrows our faith.
Calvin can rant and raise his voice all he likes. It’ll do no good unless he overthrows the considerable testimony of Scripture to purgatory. (50 verses already presented are dismissed or ignored)
For what is this purgatory but the satisfaction for sin paid after death by the souls of the dead? Hence when this idea of satisfaction is refuted, purgatory itself is forthwith completely overturned. But if it is perfectly clear, from what was lately said, that the blood of Christ is the only satisfaction, expiation, and cleansing for the sins of believers, what remains but to hold that purgatory is mere blasphemy, horrid blasphemy against Christ? I say nothing of the sacrilege by which it is daily defended, the offences which it begets in religion, and the other innumerable evils which we see teeming forth from that fountain of impiety.
It would be blasphemous if it were indeed not taught in Scripture, but the Bible has plenty of examples of sinners being cleansed, purged, purified, etc., of sin. I myself found fifty of these:
50 Bible Passages on Purgatory & Analogous Processes [2009]
25 Bible Passages on Purgatory [1996]
One of Calvin’s big heroes, St. Augustine, believed in penance, prayer for the dead, and purgatory along with all the other Church fathers:
(see list here)
You can try to twist the truth, but everyone can see right through it. Is There Any Biblical Support for Purgatory?So you deny the 50 supporting verses in post #74 and 75 with willful blindness.
It's basically from Judaic origin. More arrogant denials.
Parallels with pagan beliefs does not prove the Judaic understanding came from them. You are forced to demonize the beliefs of ancient Israel, which you don't fulfill in any meaningful sense in the first place.
For the second time:
The Jews offered atonement and prayer for their deceased brethren, who had clearly violated Mosaic Law. Such a practice presupposes purgatory, since those in heaven wouldn’t need any help, and those in hell are beyond it. The Jewish people, therefore, believed in prayer for the dead (whether or not this book is scriptural; Protestants deny that it is). [A Biblical Defense of Catholicism,Here I gave the precise reason why some semblance of purgatory must have been presupposed. For the Reformed tradition, as well as for most Protestants, save a few like C. S. Lewis or John Wesley, there is no third state after death (after Christ’s death and resurrection and ascension). Only heaven and hell exist, and it is useless and meaningless to pray for souls in either, as I argued in the passage.Therefore, the question is, why did the Jews “pray for the dead” and “make atonement for the dead” as the passage in 2 Maccabees states? They did because they assumed that the dead were still in some sort of state in which they could be aided by intercessory prayer. (they still do) And that can only be a third state besides heaven and hell. This is what the people whose practice is described must have believed. It doesn’t require a fully developed notion of purgatory; only an intermediate state of some sort besides heaven and hell: a place where they can still be helped by prayer on their behalf.Instead of coming to terms with Jewish realities, you repeat the same "faith alone" lie that the Bible doesn't teach.
John Calvin:
6. Their purgatory cannot now give us much trouble, since with this axe we have struck it, thrown it down, and overturned it from its very foundations. I cannot agree with some who think that we ought to dissemble in this matter, and make no mention of purgatory, from which (as they say) fierce contests arise, and very little edification can be obtained. I myself would think it right to disregard their follies did they not tend to serious consequences. But since purgatory has been reared on many, and is daily propped up by new blasphemies; since it produces many grievous offences, assuredly it is not to be connived at, however it might have been disguised for a time, that without any authority from the word of God, it was devised by prying audacious rashness, that credit was procured for it by fictitious revelations, the wiles of Satan, and that certain passages of Scripture were ignorantly wrested to its support. Although the Lord bears not that human presumption should thus force its way to the hidden recesses of his judgments; although he has issued a strict prohibition against neglecting his voice, and making inquiry at the dead (Deut. xviii. 11), and permits not his word to be so erroneously contaminated.
Praying for the souls in purgatory is not at all the same as necromancy, or sorcery, or occult, etc.:
Invocation of the Saints = Necromancy? [10-18-08]
Secondly, if God had supposedly forbidden all contact with the dead whatsoever, how is it that the prophet Samuel actually appeared and talked to Saul, and prophesied of his coming doom (1 Sam 28:3-25)? Why would God allow that? Since God can’t contradict Himself, this must necessarily be an error on Calvin’s part, and an example of his novel and anti-traditional theology “ignorantly wrested.”
Let us grant, however, that all this might have been tolerated for a time as a thing of no great moment;
Purgatory having been believed by the Christian Church for the “time” of 1500 years till Calvin arbitrarily and groundlessly decided it was unChristian . . .
yet when the expiation of sins is sought elsewhere than in the blood of Christ, and satisfaction is transferred to others, silence were most perilous.
Of course, nothing in the doctrine of purgatory denies, or is contrary to the blood of Christ (since, in the first place, all who are there are already saved and will go to heaven in due course). Calvin simply falsely assumes it is, offering no biblical proof to the contrary. Radical anti-Catholics do the same thing as presently.
We are bound, therefore, to raise our voice to its highest pitch, and cry aloud that purgatory is a deadly device of Satan; that it makes void the cross of Christ; that it offers intolerable insult to the divine mercy; that it undermines and overthrows our faith.
Calvin can rant and raise his voice all he likes. It’ll do no good unless he overthrows the considerable testimony of Scripture to purgatory. (50 verses already presented are dismissed or ignored)
For what is this purgatory but the satisfaction for sin paid after death by the souls of the dead? Hence when this idea of satisfaction is refuted, purgatory itself is forthwith completely overturned. But if it is perfectly clear, from what was lately said, that the blood of Christ is the only satisfaction, expiation, and cleansing for the sins of believers, what remains but to hold that purgatory is mere blasphemy, horrid blasphemy against Christ? I say nothing of the sacrilege by which it is daily defended, the offences which it begets in religion, and the other innumerable evils which we see teeming forth from that fountain of impiety.
It would be blasphemous if it were indeed not taught in Scripture, but the Bible has plenty of examples of sinners being cleansed, purged, purified, etc., of sin. I myself found fifty of these:
50 Bible Passages on Purgatory & Analogous Processes [2009]
25 Bible Passages on Purgatory [1996]
One of Calvin’s big heroes, St. Augustine, believed in penance, prayer for the dead, and purgatory along with all the other Church fathers:
(see list here)
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
The ones who deny the Judaic origin of purgatory, that your link makes no mention of, can't see anything.
Why did it take 15 centuries for Luther and Calvin to "discover" the alleged non-existence of purgatory while ancient Israel had it all along???
Why would an anti-Protestant Hislopite like you post a Calvinistic site right after Calvin's private opinions have been debunked? Your arguments have no substance; you argue for the sake of arguing and go nowhere.
Athanasius377
Member
Lets define what purgatory is first:
III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory
1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: (954, 1472)
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: (958; 1371; 1479)
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.
Catholic Church. (2000). Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., pp. 268–269). United States Catholic Conference.
According to the Council of Trent:
Canon xxx. If any one shall say, that, after the grace of justification received, unto every penitent sinner the guilt is so remitted, and the penalty of eternal punishment so blotted out, that there remains not any penalty of temporal punishment, to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in purgatory,z before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be laid open; let him be anathema.
Buckley, T. A. (1851). The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent (p. 46). George Routledge and Co.
Session the Twenty-Fifth
Being the ninth and last under the Sovereign Pontiff Pius IV., begun on the third, and terminated on the fourth, day of December, 1563
decree touching purgatory
Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the fathers, taught, in sacred councils, and very recently in this œcumenical synod, that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are relieved by the suffrages of the faithful, but chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar; the holy synod enjoins on bishops that they diligently strive that the sound doctrine touching Purgatory, delivered by the holy fathers and sacred councils, be believed, held, taught, and everywhere proclaimed by the faithful of Christ. But let the more difficult and subtle questions, and those which tend not to edification, and from which for the most part there is no increase of piety, be excluded from popular discourses before the uneducated multitude. In like manner, such things as are uncertain, or which labour under an appearance of error, let them not allow to be made public and treated of. But those things which tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or which savour of filthy lucre, let them prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks of the faithful. And let the bishops take care, that the suffrages of the faithful who are living, to wit, the sacrifices of masses, prayers, almsgivings, and other works of piety, which have been wont to be performed by the faithful for the other faithful departed, be piously and devoutly performed, according to the institutes of the Church; and that what things soever are due on their behalf from the endowments of testators, or in other way, be discharged, not in a negligent manner, but diligently and accurately, by the priests and ministers of the church, and others who are bound to render this service.
Buckley, T. A. (1851). The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent (pp. 212–213). George Routledge and Co.
III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory
1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: (954, 1472)
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: (958; 1371; 1479)
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.
Catholic Church. (2000). Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., pp. 268–269). United States Catholic Conference.
According to the Council of Trent:
Canon xxx. If any one shall say, that, after the grace of justification received, unto every penitent sinner the guilt is so remitted, and the penalty of eternal punishment so blotted out, that there remains not any penalty of temporal punishment, to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in purgatory,z before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be laid open; let him be anathema.
Buckley, T. A. (1851). The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent (p. 46). George Routledge and Co.
Session the Twenty-Fifth
Being the ninth and last under the Sovereign Pontiff Pius IV., begun on the third, and terminated on the fourth, day of December, 1563
decree touching purgatory
Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the fathers, taught, in sacred councils, and very recently in this œcumenical synod, that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are relieved by the suffrages of the faithful, but chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar; the holy synod enjoins on bishops that they diligently strive that the sound doctrine touching Purgatory, delivered by the holy fathers and sacred councils, be believed, held, taught, and everywhere proclaimed by the faithful of Christ. But let the more difficult and subtle questions, and those which tend not to edification, and from which for the most part there is no increase of piety, be excluded from popular discourses before the uneducated multitude. In like manner, such things as are uncertain, or which labour under an appearance of error, let them not allow to be made public and treated of. But those things which tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or which savour of filthy lucre, let them prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks of the faithful. And let the bishops take care, that the suffrages of the faithful who are living, to wit, the sacrifices of masses, prayers, almsgivings, and other works of piety, which have been wont to be performed by the faithful for the other faithful departed, be piously and devoutly performed, according to the institutes of the Church; and that what things soever are due on their behalf from the endowments of testators, or in other way, be discharged, not in a negligent manner, but diligently and accurately, by the priests and ministers of the church, and others who are bound to render this service.
Buckley, T. A. (1851). The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent (pp. 212–213). George Routledge and Co.
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