Is Revelation 20:1-6 really a recap?

[Davidpt]

This statement proves your total lack of understanding of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven! You do not believe the Word of Christ! Man is NOT eternally saved through a body of flesh, not even immortal body of flesh! You just don't understand the Kingdom of God man of faith inherits according to grace through faith is NOT a physical Kingdom! It is the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven that we spiritually know and enter only when we have been born again! Have you truly been born again David?

If anyone lacks understanding here, it is not me, it is you. I'm not denying one has to be born again first in order to never die. But even so, unless you think we should rip 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 out of the Bible altogether, those verses alone plainly tell us when one can never literally die. It is not until the last trump has sounded, and that this mortal has put on immortality. And guess what? Even the saved that have already died, they are still mortal. Their bodies still in their graves prove it, unless you want to argue something profoundly absurd, that their bodies still in their graves are immortal bodies rather than mortal bodies. But this doesn't deny that they are in heaven resting in a disembodied state. If being in a disembodied state already means to live forever and never die, then why have a bodily resurrection at all?

BTW, in the event other Amils understand 1 Corinthians 15:42-57 basically in the same manner I do, be sure to ask them as well, if they too are truly born again. Otherwise you are cherry picking here.

 

[Zao is life]

Where is the Kingdom of God we both know and ENTER when we are born again since it is not of this world and is within believers?

Uhm .. in the believers, who are .. uhm spiritual beings, and not in the world?

 

[rwb]

I already quoted this part. Look at what you said here. You indicated here that the age to come "was to come through His resurrection".

Yes, because the age to come that was ushered in through the resurrection of Christ is the spiritual Kingdom of God in Heaven! It is not of this earth because it is from above.

If so, that would mean that "this age" that He referenced would have ended at that point.

No, the spiritual age Christ ushered in when He resurrected will not end because the spiritual body now being built in heaven Christ shall bring with Him when He returns. (1Th 4:14) The spiritual body of Christ that is now in heaven returns with Christ to breathe eternal spiritual life into the body turning our resurrected body from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible flesh forever. Because it is through spirit that man has life, and through eternal spirit the life our resurrected body shall receive will be immortal and imperishable. Just as in the beginning our physical flesh was not alive until God breathed into them the breath of life (spirit), so too when our mortal body is resurrected immortally alive it cannot be immortally alive without the breath of life that through the eternal spirit that returns with Christ.

John 6:62-63 (KJV) What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

For man to live forever with Christ throughout eternity man must possess both breath of life through our eternal spirit and immortal body made alive by our eternal spirit, and the two together shall once again become complete living souls fit for life with Christ on the new earth where there shall be no more sin or death.

And here you're saying it again. You are indicating here that you think that the age to come that He referenced in Luke 20:34-36 was ushered in by the resurrection of Christ.

Because the resurrection of Christ ushered in the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven! When He comes again it will be to usher in the new earth that will be the physical Kingdom of God as it was created in the beginning when God created heaven and earth to be inhabited by His people. You still don't seem to comprehend the difference between the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven and the physical Kingdom of God that shall come with the new heaven and new earth.

It's amazing to me how I have to always spell everything out to you. It's as if you don't even understand what your own words imply.

I too feel the exact same way regarding your lack of understanding the difference between the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven now and the physical Kingdom of God that shall be on the new earth. It's as if you, like David seem to have no knowledge of the Kingdom of God in heaven that can only be known and entered when man is born again! Where do you believe the Kingdom of God now is if it is not the Kingdom of God in/from heaven that Christ came to earth with? He tells us it is within us, therefore it speaks of a spiritual place, the Kingdom of God in heaven that we spiritually know and enter when we are born again.

What Jesus was talking about in Luke 20:34-36 related to this temporal age during which people get married and die and the eternal age to come that will be ushered in when He comes again to usher in the eternal new heavens and new earth.

You focus on the age because you think Christ is speaking of our bodily resurrection at the end of this age. You cannot understand how illogical that is because when we are bodily resurrected, we shall not be spirits as the angels of God in heaven are. Christ is speaking of our spirit that was spiritually dead in trespasses and sins having part in the resurrection that shall give them eternal life, being the children of God, children of the resurrection. Believers don't have to wait until the end of this age to become children of God. Christ says NOW that the dead are raised! He cannot be speaking of the bodily resurrection that shall be, because that is not NOW happening. Christ is speaking of His resurrection that we partake of spiritually so that as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who are long dead, are not among the dead because they are of the living though faith.

NOW, that the dead are raised points to who being raised? IOW NOW that when Christ is raised (resurrected) from the dead, all who have died and shall die being of faith in Christ are not among the physically dead because they/we are NOW among the spiritually alive in heaven with Christ.

Luke 20:36 (KJV) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Luke 20:37 (KJV) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luke 20:38 (KJV) For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

 

[rwb]

But even so, unless you think we should rip 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 out of the Bible altogether, those verses alone plainly tell us when one can never literally die.

What do you mean when you add "literally die" to the passage? Are you saying we can only have eternal life when we are immortal flesh?

In those verses you reference Paul speaks not only of the bodily resurrection that shall be when the last trumpet sounds, he also speaks of our mortal body after death being raised a "spiritual body". Why? He tells us its because there is both a natural body of flesh, and a spiritual body that gives life to our body of flesh. When Paul writes of the spiritual body and the natural body, he says the natural comes first, and afterward, after our body dies, what remains of man is spiritual. And they that are heavenly bear the image of the heavenly. This reinforces why Christ says those who have part in His resurrection after physical death are as the angels of God in heaven, spirit, no longer flesh. Why? Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God that is the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:46-49 (KJV) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

If you're saying we cannot have eternal life until we possess immortal flesh, why does Scripture repeatedly tell us that when we believe in Christ we HAVE ETERNAL LIFE that shall never die?

 

[rwb]

Uhm .. in the believers, who are .. uhm spiritual beings, and not in the world?

Do you doubt or even deny that our physical mortal body while alive dwells in the world, but inwardly, through spirit we are no longer of flesh being born again we are now spiritual man. That's why we're told to put off the old man that is of the flesh and put on the new man that is spiritually alive through the Spirit of Christ in us. Being physically in this world while clothed in mortal flesh does not prevent believers from spiritually residing in the Kingdom of God in heaven. The Kingdom we know and enter when we are born again, that is not of flesh and blood, but a spiritual habitation where we worship God in spirit and truth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As an English speaker I have never believed that the words "we shall reign", "they shall reign" and "He shall reign" (Revelation 11:15) in any way excludes a future connotation

hast made - past tense - us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign - future tense - on the earth.

- but we will leave them to roll in their fallacies. They love rolling.

How can we be kings and priests now without reigning now? Where are we located now? On the earth. Talk about fallacies! You have us being made kings and priests, but somehow we don't reign. A total fallacy.

When it says "we shall reign", the word "shall" does not necessarily mean it's only talking about the future. If the reign is current and will be ongoing indefinitely into the future, then it make sense to say "we shall reign". In this case, it means we reign now and shall continue to reign on the earth and that goes for any believers in the future as well. It makes no sense to acknowledge that we are kings and priests now while denying that we reign now. But, I will leave you to roll in that fallacy if you insist.

Look at this verse...

Exodus 15:18 The Lord shall reign for ever and ever.

Is this verse saying that the Lord (God) was not reigning at that time but would reign at some point in the future? No, of course not. What the verse means is that the Lord was reigning then and shall continue to reign forever. So, the phrase "shall reign" can clearly refer to someone currently reigning and continuing to reign into the future. So, your assumption that "shall reign" can only refer to reigning in the future is a fallacy. Go ahead and roll in your fallacy if you prefer. Otherwise, you can accept your fallacy being corrected and adjust your beliefs accordingly.

Here is another verse (Romans 5:17) where the phrase "shall reign" is used in a current and ongoing sense.

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Is Paul talking about believers only reigning in life by Jesus Christ in the future? No. He is talking about any believers who "receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness" reigning in life by Jesus Christ, including those who were alive at that time and anyone who believed in the future. When talking about both current and future believers reigning, the phrase "shall reign" is used. When talking about God reigning both now and in the future the phrase "shall reign" was used in reference to that. When talking about believers reigning as kings and priests now and in the future, the phrase "shall reign" is used to described that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What do you mean when you add "literally die" to the passage? Are you saying we can only have eternal life when we are immortal flesh?

In those verses you reference Paul speaks not only of the bodily resurrection that shall be when the last trumpet sounds, he also speaks of our mortal body after death being raised a "spiritual body".

You get this completely wrong. We've talked about this before so I'm not going to argue with you about it again.

For the sake of anyone following this discussion, I will explain what Paul meant when he talked about being sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body. We have to look at the context.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

So, in verse 42 Paul brings up the topic of the resurrection of the dead. He's clearly talking about the bodily resurrection of the dead there. He indicates that the body we have now "is sown in corruption", but it will be "raised in incorruption". He proceeds to say that the body we have now "is sown in dishonour...raised in glory...is sown in weakness..raised in power, is sown a natural body...raised a spiritual body.

So, what Paul indicated in verses 42 to 44 is that the body we have now is corrupt, dishonorable, weak and natural. In the case of those who will be bodily resurrected in the future, their formerly corrupt, dishonorable, weak and natural bodies will be raised as incorruptible, glorious, powerful, spiritual bodies. Paul goes on to describe that this change will take place for all believers at the sound of the last trumpet. That is when the dead in Christ will be raised and they, along with those who are alive at the time, will all be changed from having mortal, corruptible, dishonorable, weak and natural bodies to having immortal, incorruptible, glorious, powerful, spiritual bodies. The idea that people will have spiritual bodies immediately after death is nowhere to be found in the text. No one will have a spiritual body until the last trumpet sounds when we will all be changed from having natural bodies to spiritual bodies that are immortal, incorruptible, glorious and powerful.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, because the age to come that was ushered in through the resurrection of Christ is the spiritual Kingdom of God in Heaven! It is not of this earth because it is from above.

If the age to come that Jesus talked about in Luke 20:34-36 was ushered in through the resurrection of Christ then that means "this age" that He referred to would have ended at the resurrection of Christ. So, that means you believe the end of the age occurred when Christ was resurreted. But, when I asked you when the end of the age will occur that is referenced in passages like Matthew 13:40-43 and Matthew 13:47-50 you agree with me that the end of the age will come when Jesus comes again. So, you are contradicting yourself. You need to make up your mind. Did the end of the age happen at the resurrection of Christ or will it happen when He returns?

Because the resurrection of Christ ushered in the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven! When He comes again it will be to usher in the new earth that will be the physical Kingdom of God as it was created in the beginning when God created heaven and earth to be inhabited by His people. You still don't seem to comprehend the difference between the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven and the physical Kingdom of God that shall come with the new heaven and new earth.

I understand it just as well and probably better than you do, so this is an empty claim coming from you. One of us contradicts himself with his comments fairly often and it's not me. It's an incredible waste of time trying to discuss these things with you because you are very unreasonable. It's similar to trying to reason with premils.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You focus on the age because you think Christ is speaking of our bodily resurrection at the end of this age. You cannot understand how illogical that is because when we are bodily resurrected, we shall not be spirits as the angels of God in heaven are.

I already addressed this and you failed to address my response. When Jesus says we will be like the angels where does He indicate that has anything to do with being spirits? Nowhere! You are adding things to the text that are not there. The comparison Jesus was making to the angels was in relation to the fact that humans will no longer marry and no longer die at that point. Would you agree that when Jesus comes and the bodily resurrection of the dead occurs, no one will ever get married or die again after that? If so, why can't you see that is what Jesus was talking about in relation to the age to come? Angels do not get married and cannot die. After Jesus comes and the resurrection of the dead occurs, humans also will not get married and will not die. Jesus was not comparing us to angels in any other sense, so you should not do that, either.

 

[Davidpt]

Thinking out loud here again.

Comparing Revelation 1:18 with Revelation 20:4.


Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth(zao), and was dead; and, behold, I am alive(zao) for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived(zao) and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Per the former, is anyone going to argue that Christ was not initially bodily alive, then bodily died, then because of a bodily resurrection is now once again alive? If that doesn't mean to live again, then what does it mean?

Some Amils argue that 'lived' in Revelation 20:4 is not meaning again. Because if it was, verse 4 would have used the same Greek word verse 5 does, anazao.

Ok then, if that is a valid argument, why wasn't anazao also used in Revelation 1:18? After all, zao in Revelation 1:18 clearly means lived again. Anyone that would deny it would have to deny that Christ died, therefore, He never rose from the dead. That He didn't live again.
Of course though, no believer is going to deny those things. Which then brings us back to, if because Revelation 20:4 didn't use anazao, that this is a valid argument as to why zao can't mean lived again in verse 4, then prove it by convincingly showing why Revelation 1:18 doesn't have to use anazao, and that zao in that verse still means lived again, but in Revelation 20:4 zao does not mean lived again.

Revelation 20:4 involves exactly what involved Christ some 2000 years ago. Initially Christ was bodily alive, then He is bodily dead, then He is bodily alive again. And that a resurrection of the dead explains it.

Likewise, per Revelation 20:4, they were obviously bodily alive at some point, then bodily dead at some point, then are later seen living and reigning with Christ. And that a resurrection of the dead explains this as well--This is the first resurrection(verse 5)

Why then do Amils insist the resurrection that caused Christ to bodily live again is not the same type of resurrection that causes these martyrs in verse 4 to live and reign with Christ, thus live again bodily the same way Christ did?

Granted, Amil is not denying a bodily resurrection of the saved. But that is beside the point since Revelation 20:4 basically mirrors the same procedure involving Christ in Revelation 1:18.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thinking out loud here again.

Comparing Revelation 1:18 with Revelation 20:4.


Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth(zao), and was dead; and, behold, I am alive(zao) for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived(zao) and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Per the former, is anyone going to argue that Christ was not initially bodily alive, then bodily died, then because of a bodily resurrection is now once again alive? If that doesn't mean to live again, then what does it mean?

Some Amils argue that 'lived' in Revelation 20:4 is not meaning again. Because if it was, verse 4 would have used the same Greek word verse 5 does, anazao.

Ok then, if that is a valid argument, why wasn't anazao also used in Revelation 1:18?

Very simple. That is because the word anazao describes the actual act of coming to life and being resurrected from the dead. Revelation 1:18 is not referring to the actual act of Jesus being resurrected. It's not referring to His resurrection itself. That verse has Jesus saying at that time (95 AD or whenever the book was written) that He was alive and that He had previously been dead (60+ or however many years prior). The word zao is used to reference the fact that He was alive at that time even though He had died in the past. If John was referring to Christ's resurrection itself then he would not have used the word zao and would have used a word that refers to someone being resurrected, like anazao, instead.

After all, zao in Revelation 1:18 clearly means lived again. Anyone that would deny it would have to deny that Christ died, therefore, He never rose from the dead. That He didn't live again.

It clearly does NOT mean lived again because it NEVER means that. The word zao means to live or to be alive. Again, the verse has Jesus saying that He was alive after previously being dead. It is not describing His resurrection itself.

This is what is shown in relation to the Greek word zao on the blueletterbible.org site...



Do you see any definition of the word here that says "to come to life", "to be resurrected from the dead", "to live again" or anything like that? It's not there. And there's no definition of the word which indicates that if the word is used to describe people who were dead that it can only refer to them after they have been bodily resurrected. The word is used to describe being alive and living. Unless you believe in soul sleep, then you should acknowledge that the word can refer to those who are physically dead but whose souls are conscious and alive with Christ in heaven.

Beyond all of this, the reason that Amils are Amil is not because of what is written in Revelation 20, but rather because of what is written in other clear scriptures that we use to help interpret Revelation 20. We are not willing to interpret Revelation 20 in a way that contradicts other scripture the way premils like you are.

 

[rwb]

Thinking out loud here again.

Comparing Revelation 1:18 with Revelation 20:4.


Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth(zao), and was dead; and, behold, I am alive(zao) for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived(zao) and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Per the former, is anyone going to argue that Christ was not initially bodily alive, then bodily died, then because of a bodily resurrection is now once again alive? If that doesn't mean to live again, then what does it mean?

Some Amils argue that 'lived' in Revelation 20:4 is not meaning again. Because if it was, verse 4 would have used the same Greek word verse 5 does, anazao.

Ok then, if that is a valid argument, why wasn't anazao also used in Revelation 1:18? After all, zao in Revelation 1:18 clearly means lived again. Anyone that would deny it would have to deny that Christ died, therefore, He never rose from the dead. That He didn't live again.
Of course though, no believer is going to deny those things. Which then brings us back to, if because Revelation 20:4 didn't use anazao, that this is a valid argument as to why zao can't mean lived again in verse 4, then prove it by convincingly showing why Revelation 1:18 doesn't have to use anazao, and that zao in that verse still means lived again, but in Revelation 20:4 zao does not mean lived again.

Revelation 20:4 involves exactly what involved Christ some 2000 years ago. Initially Christ was bodily alive, then He is bodily dead, then He is bodily alive again. And that a resurrection of the dead explains it.

Likewise, per Revelation 20:4, they were obviously bodily alive at some point, then bodily dead at some point, then are later seen living and reigning with Christ. And that a resurrection of the dead explains this as well--This is the first resurrection(verse 5)

Why then do Amils insist the resurrection that caused Christ to bodily live again is not the same type of resurrection that causes these martyrs in verse 4 to live and reign with Christ, thus live again bodily the same way Christ did?

Granted, Amil is not denying a bodily resurrection of the saved. But that is beside the point since Revelation 20:4 basically mirrors the same procedure involving Christ in Revelation 1:18.

Revelation 1:18 (KJV) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. [note: not alive AGAIN forevermore]

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [note: lived and reigned with Christ not lived AGAIN]

Revelation 20:5 (KJV) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [note: only those who lived and died without Christ must be made to live AGAIN, to stand before God at the GWTJ]

Only the dead shall live AGAIN! Christ was once alive yet even after death He is alive forevermore. The souls beheaded for their faith also were once alive and after being beheaded they lived and reigned with Christ. Neither Christ nor the martyred souls had to be made alive AGAIN, according to what is written, they are simply still alive after physical death.

John doesn't write Christ and the martyred souls must be made alive AGAIN because death of their body cannot kill faithful souls. Scripture tells us the living spirit of Christ returned to the Father in the same way the living spirit of saints does also. Only the physically dead who are never made spiritually alive before death must be made to live AGAIN, because death of the body for them is to return to God in darkness and silence through unbelief according to what is written.

Matthew 10:28 (KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

But when the body of believers dies, we as spiritual body of Christ ascend to heaven living souls. That's why Paul writes that when we (spiritual body of Christ) are absent from the body we are present with the Lord in heaven, where we shall be as the angels of God in heaven spiritual body without human form.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[Zao is life]

I already addressed this and you failed to address my response. When Jesus says we will be like the angels where does He indicate that has anything to do with being spirits? Nowhere! You are adding things to the text that are not there. The comparison Jesus was making to the angels was in relation to the fact that humans will no longer marry and no longer die at that point. Would you agree that when Jesus comes and the bodily resurrection of the dead occurs, no one will ever get married or die again after that? If so, why can't you see that is what Jesus was talking about in relation to the age to come? Angels do not get married and cannot die. After Jesus comes and the resurrection of the dead occurs, humans also will not get married and will not die. Jesus was not comparing us to angels in any other sense, so you should not do that, either.

@rwb seems to have a gnostic, dualist notion that the spiritual and physical are two completely separate things.

I doubt he fully believes Paul - because though Paul spoke of this corrupt body we now live in as 'dead' in Romans 8:10-11, yet he called it the temple of God in 1 Corinthians 3:16.

There are a number of cultures based on veneration of the spirits of the ancestors who imagine those spirits of the ancesors each with a body with ligaments like we have now - even when the body is in the grave, and the soul and spirit have been separated from the body through death.

Yet the Bible tells us that God created human beings as composite beings consisting of a body, soul and spirit.

Yet according to rwb 's theology, the soul / spirit has its own body also, So each one has two bodies. So John saw under the altar the souls and bodies of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held, when the fifth seal was opened?

Two bodies. How many souls, I wonder? Only one?

No need for the resurrection of the body from death, then, so the fact that it's an integral part of the gospel - which is the gospel of redemption from sin AND death - is made meaningless by his theology.

So it seems rwb views Paul as being meoldramatic when Paul calls death "the enemy of God" - in the very passage where the context is Paul talking a great deal about the resurrection of the body from the dead (1 Corinthians 15).

It's as though God created Adam and Eve so that they could "die and then go to heaven when they die", and Jesus did not need to take on human flesh and suffer and die for us, and rise again bodily from the dead.

 

[rwb]

seems to have a gnostic, dualist notion that the spiritual and physical are two completely separate things.

Not at all! In fact, I repeatedly show the composition of mankind is body + spirit called living souls.

I doubt he fully believes Paul - because though Paul spoke of this corrupt body we now live in as 'dead' in Romans 8:10-11, yet he called it the temple of God in 1 Corinthians 3:16.

How is the body of believers the temple of God? Because the Spirit of God dwells within us. Our body with the Spirit of God being one body and one spirit with Christ is indeed the temple of the Holy Spirit. IOW with the Holy Spirit dwelling in believers we are the body of Christ with many parts. For that reason, death of our mortal body shall not prevent us from being spiritually alive in heaven after we die. You continue to deny the Words of Christ found throughout the Bible telling us again and again that when the Spirit of Christ dwells in us we HAVE ETERNAL spiritual life that shall NEVER DIE!

1 Corinthians 3:16-18 (KJV) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

1 Corinthians 6:17-20 (KJV) But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians 6:11 (KJV) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Ephesians 4:4-6 (KJV) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Ephesians 5:29-30 (KJV) For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Believers are no longer of the dead because the Spirit of Christ lives in us giving us ETERNAL spiritual life FOREVER!

 

[rwb]

Yet according to rwb 's theology, the soul / spirit has its own body also, So each one has two bodies. So John saw under the altar the souls and bodies of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held, when the fifth seal was opened?

It is Paul, not I who writes there is a spiritual body and a natural body. That is not saying there are two separate bodies, Paul is saying a man is first alive on this earth as natural body of flesh, and after this man of faith physically dies, he is no longer natural body of this earth but becomes spiritual body of Christ in heaven. That which is natural is first, then that which shall be spiritual comes after physical death.

John saw ALIVE what he writes are "the souls of them that were slain" as being under the altar. No man could become living souls in heaven before the coming of Christ to make atonement for sin and defeat death. To be under the altar symbolizes they believed in Christ the prophets foretell, through faith they were saved according to promise of God from before the foundation of the world. When John sees them again, they will be with the Lamb on Mt Zion in heaven having been redeemed from the earth. (Rev 14) That is after the blood of Christ has secured their eternal salvation forever.

Revelation 6:9 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

So it seems rwb views Paul as being meoldramatic when Paul calls death "the enemy of God" - in the very passage where the context is Paul talking a great deal about the resurrection of the body from the dead (1 Corinthians 15).

In his message to the Corinthians Paul speaks not only of faithful saints who die in faith becoming spiritual body of Christ in heaven after death, he also speaks of how and when the mortal body of faithful saints will be resurrected immortal & incorruptible when the seventh trumpet sounds. That so we will understand that Paul believes the complete transformation of faithful man shall be when our body too through our eternal spirit shall be resurrected immortal & incorruptible. btw you misspelled 'melodramatic' which Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is in no way being.

1 Corinthians 15:51-56 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Most of the people on this forum are completely misled by the dragon. And since we're at the end of this trickery from hell now; the gloves have to come off for the sake of your immortal souls.

There is nothing, after John 19:30. "It is finished" means all redemption and prophecy were complete. The promises to Abraham were all fulfilled through Christ, and ended at the foot of the Cross. Every Christian on earth perfectly understood this for 1,900 years completely.

Until 1909.

C.I. Scofield was from HELL, and his ideas came directly from the darkest pit of it.

No Christian ON EARTH, believed what you people believe before 1909. And the fact that every single apostle, Christ Himself, and every early church father agrees with me here, and not you, and yet you continue to ignore all of that and stay under the veil is in a phrase, - absolutely terrifying.

How lost and misled are you? Let's take a look at the Titans and architects of Christianity itself.

From Jesus:

Matthew 21:43

“The kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing its fruits.”

→ Jesus says the kingdom is taken from ethnic Israel and given to another people—not postponed, not paused. John 5:46

^ That's really the only one needed, but let's continue.

“If you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.”

→ Jesus declares He is the fulfillment of Moses—not a future Zionism or third temple politics.

Luke 24:44

“Everything written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
→ Jesus declares fulfillment now, not in a future millennium.

From Paul:
Romans 9:6

“Not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel.”

→ Paul redefines Israel around faith—NOT "ethnicity" or "race". Only Christians who follow Christ the King of Israel, are the "Israelites" (whether they be Jews or Greeks.) Anyone else on earth, who claim's Abraham; or to be "Israelite status" without following Jesus Christ, is in open rebellion against God the Father Almighty. < Paul said it. Christians are the Israelite-Race you misled fools. Every church father and apostle fully understood this; go check their endless quotes about it and verify it throughout history.

There is no other "Israelites" on EARTH, but Christians who follow Christ, the KING OF ISREAL. And the King told you "MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS EARTH"! So anyone even acknowledging an "Israel" of dirt and UN lines made by billionaire satanic bankers on Earth: is openly denying that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. BEFORE GOD, you are doing this. The Puritan's in the 1600s would be screaming their damn heads off right now if they were looking through a Time Machine TV of what we got going on right now. They'd be screaming - "Thats' not Israel you fools! It's not land or dirt. Israel can only be reached by following Christ for It is not of this earth! We are the Israelites, they are imposters! What is this trickery from hell. Wake up!"

Now where were we...

Romans 2:28–29

“A Jew is not one outwardly... but inwardly. Circumcision is a matter of the heart.”

→ Destroys Zionist obsession with outward bloodlines. Bloodlines are meaningless now and should be ignored.

Galatians 3:7

“Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.”

→ Faith in Christ = heir. Not blood. Not birthright.

Galatians 3:28–29

“There is neither Jew nor Greek... for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed.” (And an Israelite according to GOD)

→ God's Word in Scripture flattens the entire system of racial distinction and makes it obsolete.

Ephesians 2:14–15

“He has made both groups one... abolishing the law and its ordinances.”

→ Christ abolished the Jew/Gentile divide. No dual-track covenant.

Philippians 3:3 “We are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus, and put no confidence in the flesh.”

→ Who is “Israel”? The Church. And only the Church, from this point forward.

1 Timothy 1:4
“...nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.” ➡ Paul directly warns against obsessing over bloodlines and ancestry—because it leads to speculation, deception, and false doctrine. Dispensationalism is built on the very thing Paul told Timothy to shut down, > to completely destroy & abolish the “chosen bloodline” and elitist, racist, heresy from the old covenant.

From Peter, John, and the New Covenant writers:

1 Peter 2:9–10

“You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation... once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people.”

→ Applies Old Covenant Israel’s identity to the Church. (Followers of Christ are the ONLY "Israelites" now.) Thats what His followers were saying while they were still taking the NAILS OUT OF HIS HANDS! "Followers of Christ are the ONLY "Israelites" now!" - Get it? According to the WORD OF GOD, there are no true "Israelites" who don't follow Christ on earth, anyone making such a claim is in open Rebellion against God the Father and claiming to be something they are not recognized by GOD as.. or they're brainwashed fools taken in by the devil. (Evangelicals since the 1950s)

Hebrews 8:13

“In speaking of a new covenant, He makes the first one obsolete.”

→ The Old Covenant is done in perpetuity—not "paused". < This is where Scofield slipped the knife into Christ, and His flock's back..

Hebrews 10:9

“He takes away the first in order to establish the second.”

→ Direct statement: the first covenant is gone, forever.

Hebrews 11:10, 16

“They desired a better country, that is, a heavenly one... for He has prepared for them a city.”

→ Even Old Testament saints were not looking for an earthly Zion . Why would they be?!?!?! Israel is "not of this Earth", or made of dirt and UN lines; it's only gotten to by following Christ in your hearts as a true Israelite of Christ.

From the Early Church Fathers:

Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 11)

“For the true spiritual Israel... are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ.”

→ Justin, 2nd century, calls the Church - "The one true Israel" - with everyone in all the lands around him in full agreeance but the devil himself!

Irenaeus (Against Heresies, Book 5, Ch. 32)

“Those who are saved... are those who follow the Word of God, not those who are of physical descent.”

→ Bloodlines don’t save. Only Christ does.

Tertullian (An Answer to the Jews, Ch. 10)

“The old law ceased when the new law began... the people of the Jews were rejected, and the Gentiles adopted.”

→ He saw it clearly: covenant transfer. (Christians are now the Israelite race. There is no other.)

Cyprian of Carthage (Letters, 63:2)

“We Christians are the true people of God.”

→ Said with finality, 200 years before Rome twisted the gospel. Jews & Gentiles who follow the King of Israel are saved. This isn't hard. Well, it wasn't hard before 1909.

Clement of Alexandria

“It is only the Church which is the true spiritual Israel.”

→ Another early testimony—Israel = the Church. And only the church members are the Israelites. The term "replacement theology" came from HELL. Anyone who even utters this term should be considered either a dangerous, deceptive demon from hell, or a person who is completely brainwashed to the point of their own peril.

Origen (Homilies on Joshua)

“We are the Israel of God who walk in the spirit.” Again, the Church and Christ's followers are the only Israelites now.

→ Even Origen, for all his flaws, understood this essential truth.

Eusebius (Ecclesiastical History, Book 1)

“The promises made to Israel have found their fulfillment in the Christian Church.”

→ The early historians and theologians all agreed: no dual covenant.

Summary from the maw of HELL:

Dispensationalism requires:

A postponed kingdom
Two peoples of God
A return to shadows (temple, sacrifices and war)
A racial covenant apart from Christ
Every single one of those pillars from hell is absolutely obliterated by the above 20 quotes

You've been brainwashed to deny that Christ is the Messiah, and to worship GOG, and do his bidding against MAGOG.

All you misled, evangelicals are doing on these forums is regurgitating Scofield's blasphemy from hell, back n fourth, while denying that Jesus Christ is the Son of God - "who apparently didn't fulfill the promises to Abraham in the process as He said He did." "Jesus was a liar. It wasn't "finished" at all! Jesus was actually wrong while He hung on the Cross dying for us folks! Nothing happened in 70AD that He claimed would happen, thats WRONG! cause see, there's all these prophecy charts and stuff (from a madman drunk who ran out on his family with Oxford Printing Press & Rockefeller/Rothschild ties) And by the 1950s it was: "And we need to now send tanks and billions to the Rothschild soldiers in Palestine." Yea, wow..

The apostles sitting in an evangelical church right now would probably collapse and die of sadness from a broken heart.

It's no wonder Christ said that the path is so narrow. He knew that by the end, you'd all be completely brainwashed out of your minds.

All I can do is pray for you at this point. The veil is real and you're all swimming in it towards the maw of Hell. Repent.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Most of the people on this forum are completely misled by the dragon. And since we're at the end of this trickery from hell now; the gloves have to come off for the sake of your immortal souls.

There is nothing, after John 19:30. "It is finished" means all redemption and prophecy were complete. The promises to Abraham were all fulfilled through Christ, and ended at the foot of the Cross. Every Christian on earth perfectly understood this for 1,900 years completely.

Until 1909.

C.I. Scofield was from HELL, and his ideas came directly from the darkest pit of it.

No Christian ON EARTH, believed what you people believe before 1909. And the fact that every single apostle, Christ Himself, and every early church father agrees with me here, and not you, and yet you continue to ignore all of that and stay under the veil is in a phrase, - absolutely terrifying.

How lost and misled are you? Let's take a look at the Titans and architects of Christianity itself.

From Jesus:

Matthew 21:43

“The kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing its fruits.”

→ Jesus says the kingdom is taken from ethnic Israel and given to another people—not postponed, not paused. John 5:46

^ That's really the only one needed, but let's continue.

“If you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.”

→ Jesus declares He is the fulfillment of Moses—not a future Zionism or third temple politics.

Luke 24:44

“Everything written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
→ Jesus declares fulfillment now, not in a future millennium.

From Paul:
Romans 9:6

“Not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel.”

→ Paul redefines Israel around faith—NOT "ethnicity" or "race". Only Christians who follow Christ the King of Israel, are the "Israelites" (whether they be Jews or Greeks.) Anyone else on earth, who claim's Abraham; or to be "Israelite status" without following Jesus Christ, is in open rebellion against God the Father Almighty. < Paul said it. Christians are the Israelite-Race you misled fools. Every church father and apostle fully understood this; go check their endless quotes about it and verify it throughout history.

There is no other "Israelites" on EARTH, but Christians who follow Christ, the KING OF ISREAL. And the King told you "MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS EARTH"! So anyone even acknowledging an "Israel" of dirt and UN lines made by billionaire satanic bankers on Earth: is openly denying that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. BEFORE GOD, you are doing this. The Puritan's in the 1600s would be screaming their damn heads off right now if they were looking through a Time Machine TV of what we got going on right now. They'd be screaming - "Thats' not Israel you fools! It's not land or dirt. Israel can only be reached by following Christ for It is not of this earth! We are the Israelites, they are imposters! What is this trickery from hell. Wake up!"

Now where were we...

Romans 2:28–29

“A Jew is not one outwardly... but inwardly. Circumcision is a matter of the heart.”

→ Destroys Zionist obsession with outward bloodlines. Bloodlines are meaningless now and should be ignored.

Galatians 3:7

“Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.”

→ Faith in Christ = heir. Not blood. Not birthright.

Galatians 3:28–29

“There is neither Jew nor Greek... for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed.” (And an Israelite according to GOD)

→ God's Word in Scripture flattens the entire system of racial distinction and makes it obsolete.

Ephesians 2:14–15

“He has made both groups one... abolishing the law and its ordinances.”

→ Christ abolished the Jew/Gentile divide. No dual-track covenant.

Philippians 3:3 “We are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus, and put no confidence in the flesh.”

→ Who is “Israel”? The Church. And only the Church, from this point forward.

1 Timothy 1:4
“...nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.” ➡ Paul directly warns against obsessing over bloodlines and ancestry—because it leads to speculation, deception, and false doctrine. Dispensationalism is built on the very thing Paul told Timothy to shut down, completely destroying the “chosen bloodline” and
elitist, racist, heresy from the old covenant.

From Peter, John, and the New Covenant writers:

1 Peter 2:9–10

“You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation... once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people.”

→ Applies Old Covenant Israel’s identity to the Church. (Followers of Christ are the ONLY "Israelites" now.) Thats what His followers were saying while they were still taking the NAILS OUT OF HIS HANDS! "Followers of Christ are the ONLY "Israelites" now!" - Get it? According to the WORD OF GOD, there are no true "Israelites" who don't follow Christ on earth, anyone making such a claim is in open Rebellion against God the Father and claiming to be something they are not recognized by GOD as.. or they're brainwashed fools taken in by the devil. (Evangelicals since the 1950s)

Hebrews 8:13

“In speaking of a new covenant, He makes the first one obsolete.”

→ The Old Covenant is done in perpetuity—not "paused". < This is where Scofield slipped the knife into Christ, and His flock's back..

Hebrews 10:9

“He takes away the first in order to establish the second.”

→ Direct statement: the first covenant is gone, forever.

Hebrews 11:10, 16

“They desired a better country, that is, a heavenly one... for He has prepared for them a city.”

→ Even Old Testament saints were not looking for an earthly Zion . Why would they be?!?!?! Israel is "not of this Earth", or made of dirt and UN lines; it's only gotten to by following Christ in your hearts as a true Israelite of Christ.

I agree with everything you said in your post. And there are several Amillennialists who post here that would agree as well. With that said, I'm not sure why you made this particular post in this thread. There are no dispensationalists posting in this particular thread. There are a few Premils in this thread, but they are not dispensationalists. Though I guess Davidpt does believe a few things that dispensationalists typically believe. You should start a new thread with this post if you want dispensationalists to see it. Or post it in a different thread where dispensationalists are posting their nonsense.