Is Romans 7 a license to sin?

[RichardBurger]

I am really tired of the religious saying that those who believe they are OSAS are just looking for a license to sin.
*
If you can read this scripture and tell me that Paul is looking for a license to sin then you are blind to what he is saying.
*
Romans 7:8-25
8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.
12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Verse 24 Paul is certainly not saying Jesus makes his body sinless He says Jesus saves him from his sinful flesh.

 

[Episkopos]

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The first sentence alone dispels the myth that one can both be alive to the flesh nature and dead to the law at the same time.As long as we walk in the sin nature we are under the law of sin and death. The law of Christ saved us from sinning by flying higher than it, so to speak.

Jesus is not promiscuous. If we are married to the old sin nature then the new nature will not come in to form a three way intimacy. Jesus does not attach Himself to a sinful nature. But if that nature be dead then that one is ready to receve Christ's life. Even a computer cannot contain 2 operating systems. One must be discarded in order to make room for the other.

Paul is explaining after that the process of one who desires to be righteous but cannot due to his old nature...that is until Jesus comes. Then we die with Him and are resurrected with Him in our hearts so that He makes His abode in us.


Jesus and sin don't mix.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Then comes Jesus and solves the problem of the flesh nature. The next part is one of the gnostic's favourite verses to twist into an irresponsibility for their own actions.

So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


This is not about the law of Christ...but about the law of God...But it means that when we seek to serve the law ourselves we are still stuck in the sin nature. Paul is talking of the carnal mind.
Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.





The law of Christ enables us to accomplish the law of God.

1 Cor. 9: [sup]21 [/sup]to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

So one does not destroy one law...the law of God...in order to be under the law of Christ. Rather the law of Christ fulfills the law of God.

 

[Axehead]

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The first sentence alone dispels the myth that one can both be alive to the flesh nature and dead to the law at the same time.As long as we walk in the sin nature we are under the law of sin and death. The law of Christ saved us from sinning by flying higher than it, so to speak.

Jesus is not promiscuous. If we are married to the old sin nature then the new nature will not come in to form a three way intimacy. Jesus does not attach Himself to a sinful nature. But if that nature be dead then that one is ready to receve Christ's life. Even a computer cannot contain 2 operating systems. One must be discarded in order to make room for the other.

Paul is explaining after that the process of one who desires to be righteous but cannot due to his old nature...that is until Jesus comes. Then we die with Him and are resurrected with Him in our hearts so that He makes His abode in us.


Jesus and sin don't mix.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Then comes Jesus and solves the problem of the flesh nature. The next part is one of the gnostic's favourite verses to twist into an irresponsibility for their own actions.

So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


This is not about the law of Christ...but about the law of God...But it means that when we seek to serve the law ourselves we are still stuck in the sin nature. Paul is talking of the carnal mind.
Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.





The law of Christ enables us to accomplish the law of God.

1 Cor. 9: [sup]21 [/sup]to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

So one does not destroy one law...the law of God...in order to be under the law of Christ. Rather the law of Christ fulfills the law of God.

Exactly!! Amen!

 

[Ace Michaels]

I believe this is something every believer struggles with and Paul has imo explained it truthfully. Imo the battle is between the flesh and the heart and which you will obey

 

[brightmorningstar]

Well said Episkopos,

 

[Episkopos]

I believe this is something every believer struggles with and Paul has imo explained it truthfully. Imo the battle is between the flesh and the heart and which you will obey

Greetings Ace!!

The law of Christ is that we forsake our old lives and the power behind it...the sin nature...in order to take in a new life that is created already holy. So we aren't to try being holy in our own strength....but rather seek to have God come and take away our old nature so as to place us in Christ. We then can walk in the Spirit just like Jesus and the apostles did.

But this takes faith and a whole commitment. If you pray for this...God will start preparing you for it. You must rejoice in all the subsequent trials He will send you...He is preparing you. If you remain faithful to your prayer, then God will be faithful to answer your prayer. We must be single minded and not give up.....ever.!

God's blessing on you!

John

 

[Ace Michaels]

Thank you for the encouragement!

 

[Episkopos]

Thank you for the encouragement!

 

[RichardBurger]

The law of Christ is that we forsake our old lives and the power behind it...the sin nature...in order to take in a new life that is created already holy. So we aren't to try being holy in our own strength....but rather seek to have God come and take away our old nature so as to place us in Christ. We then can walk in the Spirit just like Jesus and the apostles did.

But this takes faith and a whole commitment. If you pray for this...God will start preparing you for it. You must rejoice in all the subsequent trials He will send you...He is preparing you. If you remain faithful to your prayer, then God will be faithful to answer your prayer. We must be single minded and not give up.....ever.!

John

This thread is not about the law of Christ as you want it to be. Neither is it a discussion about faith. Leave it up to the religious junkies to make it a thread about works.

For the slow, do you think Paul is saying he WANTS TO SIN in Romans 7 and that he has a license to sin? That is the subject of this thread. ---- Romans 7:8-25 are the scriptures under discussion.

I believe this is something every believer struggles with and Paul has imo explained it truthfully. Imo the battle is between the flesh and the heart and which you will obey

Yes, it is the same struggle that all children of God have to deal with with no exceptions. But the religious will never understand that no man alive can control the sinful flesh. If they could, Jesus died for nothing. Jesus' shed blood on the cross has paid for ALL of the sins of the world but only those that actually believe it has will be saved.

 

[Episkopos]

This thread is not about the law of Christ as you want it to be. Neither is it a discussion about faith. Leave it up to the religious junkies to make it a thread about works.

For the slow, do you think Paul is saying he WANTS TO SIN in Romans 7 and that he has a license to sin? That is the subject of this thread. ---- Romans 7:8-25 are the scriptures under discussion.



Yes, it is the same struggle that all children of God have to deal with with no exceptions. But the religious will never understand that no man alive can control the sinful flesh. If they could, Jesus died for nothing. Jesus' shed blood on the cross has paid for ALL of the sins of the world but only those that actually believe it has will be saved.

Thank God for the resurrection of Christ that enables men to follow Him is newness of life...and not by the power of the old flesh!

 

[RichardBurger]

Thank God for the resurrection of Christ that enables men to follow Him is newness of life...and not by the power of the old flesh!

Who placed you into the body of Christ? Was it you? was it because you think you can be sinless? Was it because of your works? Was it because you SAY you no longer yield to the flesh? Saying you no longer live in the flesh does not make it true does it since my saying I place my faith in Jesus does not make it true. What is good for you is good for me.

Salvation is the work of God and I believe a person must believe it instead of trusting in their own ability to not sin to save themselves.

I don't see that you have much to say on this thread since you think you are above sin and are not like Paul.

 

[Episkopos]

Who placed you into the body of Christ? Was it you? was it because you think you can be sinless? Was it because of your works? Was it because you SAY you no longer yield to the flesh? Saying you no longer live in the flesh does not make it true does it since my saying I place my faith in Jesus does not make it true. What is good for you is good for me.

Salvation is the work of God and I believe a person must believe it instead of trusting in their own ability to not sin to save themselves.

I don't see that you have much to say on this thread since you think you are above sin and are not like Paul.

So Romans 7 gives you immunity from prosecution for your sins????

Paul was telling the story or testimony of his battles BEFORE he was in Christ. This unfortunately lines up very well who many who claim that they can identify with Paul BEFORE his conversion. Very telling!

Hey check out my Romans 8 thread!!!

 

[RichardBurger]

So Romans 7 gives you immunity from prosecution for your sins????

Paul was telling the story or testimony of his battles BEFORE he was in Christ. This unfortunately lines up very well who many who claim that they can identify with Paul BEFORE his conversion. Very telling!

Hey check out my Romans 8 thread!!!

Bull !!!! --- I see nothing in these scriptures that say what Paul was describing was a past tense condition. That is what you want it to say so that you can discount it as meaningless.

You obviusoly do not have anything to give you immunity from prosecution except your works, -- but I do. --- It is the work of Jesus on the cross; His shed blood that ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES has (PAST TENSE) reconciled me to God. There is nothing greater than Jesus' shed blood on the cross. Certainly not the works of man.

 

[Episkopos]

Bull !!!! --- I see nothing in these scriptures that say what Paul was describing was a past tense condition. That is what you want it to say so that you can discount it as meaningless.

You obviusoly do not have anything to give you immunity from prosecution except your works, -- but I do. --- It is the work of Jesus on the cross; His shed blood that ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES has (PAST TENSE) reconciled me to God. There is nothing greater than Jesus' shed blood on the cross. Certainly not the works of man.

LOL Paul was describing the process in which he came to the victory in Christ. He wanted to do good...but could not due to the law of sin in his old nature. Then in Christ he became dead to sin through the death of Christ and live in newness of life through His resurrection power. Very basic NT doctrine.

A big clue that Paul was not talking of his present state in Romans 7 is that he was dead to sin already in Romans 6...

 

[whitestone]

This thread is not about the law of Christ as you want it to be. Neither is it a discussion about faith. Leave it up to the religious junkies to make it a thread about works.

For the slow, do you think Paul is saying he WANTS TO SIN in Romans 7 and that he has a license to sin? That is the subject of this thread. ---- Romans 7:8-25 are the scriptures under discussion.



Yes, it is the same struggle that all children of God have to deal with with no exceptions. But the religious will never understand that no man alive can control the sinful flesh. If they could, Jesus died for nothing. Jesus' shed blood on the cross has paid for ALL of the sins of the world but only those that actually believe it has will be saved.

Dear Richardburger

You won't get anywhere unless you realize that Paul is ANSWERING the plight of a person in Romans 7... WITH ROMANS 8!

Here is the answer. You should have no questions after reading this Because THIS is how we Live the sinless life that someone in Rom 7 couldn't;


(Rom 8:1)

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

(Rom 8:2)

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

(Rom 8:3)

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

(Rom 8:4)

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

(Rom 8:5)

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

(Rom 8:6)

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

(Rom 8:7)

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

(Rom 8:8)

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

(Rom 8:9)

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

(Rom 8:10)

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

(Rom 8:11)

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

(Rom 8:12)

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

(Rom 8:13)

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

(Rom 8:14)

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

(Rom 8:15)

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

(Rom 8:16)

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

(Rom 8:17)

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

[RichardBurger]

Dear Richardburger

You won't get anywhere unless you realize that Paul is ANSWERING the plight of a person in Romans 7... WITH ROMANS 8!

Here is the answer. You should have no questions after reading this Because THIS is how we Live the sinless life that someone in Rom 7 couldn't;


(Rom 8:1)

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

(Rom 8:2)

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

(Rom 8:3)

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

(Rom 8:4)

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

(Rom 8:5)

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

(Rom 8:6)

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

(Rom 8:7)

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

(Rom 8:8)

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

(Rom 8:9)

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

(Rom 8:10)

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

(Rom 8:11)

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

(Rom 8:12)

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

(Rom 8:13)

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

(Rom 8:14)

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

(Rom 8:15)

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

(Rom 8:16)

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

(Rom 8:17)

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Just as you say my understanding of Romans 7 is wrong, I say your understanding of Romans 8 is wrong. I will not say why because I have already done so and the many will not hear it.

 

[Episkopos]

Just as you say my understanding of Romans 7 is wrong, I say your understanding of Romans 8 is wrong. I will not say why because I have already done so and the many will not hear it.

Richard you are a champion of temporal logic!!! ^_^

grace is the means that makes us able to be obedient to the gospel.

 

[whitestone]

Just as you say my understanding of Romans 7 is wrong, I say your understanding of Romans 8 is wrong. I will not say why because I have already done so and the many will not hear it.

You can't say why because you would be a false witness if you did.

Romans 8 doesn't need your approval to be the answer to a person suffering from sin as in Romans 7.

It only needs to be pointed out, as I have just done so, that those who ARE called by God can see the ANSWER (JESUS) and receive His Holy Spirit and be delivered from the sinful life they found themselves in as described by Rom 7.

O the simplicity that is in Christ is so easy to understand, if you are of the Spirit that is, and not still in the flesh

 

[RichardBurger]

Richard you are a champion of temporal logic!!! ^_^

grace is the means that makes us able to be obedient to the gospel.

God's grace is what covers the sins of the world and makes those that have faith in it children of God. No works, just faith in the work of God.

If a person thinks their works make them righteous before God then, according to scriptures, they have fallen from grace. You can't be saved by both God's grace and your works of law keeping.

Your idea of being obedient boils down to keeping the law. --- Mine is keeping my trust in God's work on the cross. But you have always said my idea is wrong so therefore you think you are saved by keeping the law.

You can twist it anyway you want to, but in the end, your idea is that a person has to have good works IN ORDER TO BE SAVED and that is salvation by good works as definded by the Law of Moses.

Obviously you are not dead to the Law since you believe your works of keeping the Law saves you.

As for me, I am dead to the law and alive in Christ. Alive in Christ not because my works are putting me there, but because of my faith in the work of God on the cross the Holy Spirit has already put me in Christ. --- Man can not put himself in Christ by his works. -- Many will say how can you prove you are in Christ? Well as for physical proof I have nothing but the word of God in the scriptures and for me they prove I am a child of God. I have placed my belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the promises of God in the Gospel of Grace that Jesus gave to Paul. A gospel that was hidden from men and revealed to Paul just as it says in the scriptures. --- The very fact that most wil not see that the gospel of grace given to Paul was hidden in God shows that they do not believe God's words in the scriptures.

Richard you are a champion of temporal logic!!! ^_^

What did you accomplish by what you said?

You can't say why because you would be a false witness if you did.

Romans 8 doesn't need your approval to be the answer to a person suffering from sin as in Romans 7.

It only needs to be pointed out, as I have just done so, that those who ARE called by God can see the ANSWER (JESUS) and receive His Holy Spirit and be delivered from the sinful life they found themselves in as described by Rom 7.

O the simplicity that is in Christ is so easy to understand, if you are of the Spirit that is, and not still in the flesh

And your idea that what Paul wrote in Romans 7 was before he was in Christ is the very word of God isn't it. Such arragance!

 

[whitestone]

God's grace is what covers the sins of the world and makes those that have faith in it children of God. No works, just faith in the work of God.

If a person thinks their works make them righteous before God then, according to scriptures, they have fallen from grace. You can't be saved by both God's grace and your works of law keeping.

Your idea of being obedient boils down to keeping the law. --- Mine is keeping my trust in God's work on the cross. But you have always said my idea is wrong so therefore you think you are saved by keeping the law.

You can twist it anyway you want to, but in the end, your idea is that a person has to have good works IN ORDER TO BE SAVED and that is salvation by good works as definded by the Law of Moses.

Obviously you are not dead to the Law since you believe your works of keeping the Law saves you.

As for me, I am dead to the law and alive in Christ. Alive in Christ not because my works are putting me there, but because of my faith in the work of God on the cross the Holy Spirit has already put me in Christ. --- Man can not put himself in Christ by his works. -- Many will say how can you prove you are in Christ? Well as for physical proof I have nothing but the word of God in the scriptures and for me they prove I am a child of God. I have placed my belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the promises of God in the Gospel of Grace that Jesus gave to Paul. A gospel that was hidden from men and revealed to Paul just as it says in the scriptures. --- The very fact that most wil not see that the gospel of grace given to Paul was hidden in God shows that they do not believe God's words in the scriptures.



What did you accomplish by what you said?



And your idea that what Paul wrote in Romans 7 was before he was in Christ is the very word of God isn't it. Such arragance!

Dear Richard,

In the short while I've read this thread and read your posts, it is clear to see you have no idea what Episkopos has revealed to you out of scripture. Nor what I have revealed out of scripture. Yes of course, the plight of a person in Rom 7 is someone who has NOT received Christ in Him. That is why the "answer" is the last verse of the chapter, "Jesus Christ". That is why Rom 8 is the continued "answer" to the Rom 7 dilema.

What is wrong with you sir? Has satan blinded your mind to see this simplicity that is in Christ? Or are you just an agent of the enemy promoting sin as being "ok" within the body of Christ? You sure manifest yourself as satan. It is clear to see those who are of Christ. Who ARE YOU "OF"? It sure isn't Christ Jesus.

Your response is to name call, "arrogant" did you say?
For posting Rom 8 as the answer to the plight of a person of Rom 7?

That only says something about you. You have just given the answer to "who" you are.

(2Co 2:11)

that no advantage may be gained over us by Satan: for we are not ignorant of his devices.