Is the book of James devoid of grace

[RichardBurger]

(tomwebster;55933)
treeoflife,Again we are back to the once-saved-always-saved argument which as you know I disagree with, but I'm not going to rehash that topic. And Rich, James was not confused.
Oh I agree, but he referenced a time in Gen 22 to establish his ideas where Paul referenced Gen 15 to establish his. So tell me, was Abraham acconted as righteous before God in Gen 15 or not until Gen 22?James was perfectly correct considering who he was writing to and Paul was perfectly correct considering who he was writing to.The gospel James taught was fading away and being replaced by a new and better way. 2 Cor 3:6-11 (NKJ)6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the """new covenant,""" not of the letter (Law) but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?9 For if the ministry of condemnation (the Law) had glory, the ministry of righteousness (grace) exceeds much more in glory.10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.God had a secondary purpose for the death of Jesus on the cross. From Jesus, and the preaching of the "Kingdom of Heaven," to this time in which we now live is a new dispensation and it was not mentioned in the O.T. it was not mentioned in the first 4 books of the N.T. nor was it mentioned in the Jewish writings of the 12. This new gospel was ""hidden in God"" and revealed to Paul by Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus, Acts 9:3-6 and Eph 3:8.All that was written "to the Jews" in the O.T. and the N.T. was written "to the Jews," not to the Gentiles. Is it necessary for us to understand them? YES. If we don't then we are missing the foundation for understanding God and the shift from law to the gospel of God's grace. The message of salvation by God's grace, "alone," given to Paul, was without precedence. It was not in the Jewish relationship with God. The Jewish relationship was a religious one of "faith + works to show that faith" (James 2:24). However, the gospel of God's grace requires no works whatsoever. God has done all the works that are necessary on the cross.IMHO this is what I see in the scriptures but I know there are some on this forum that disagree. IMHO I have faithfully shown what God has revealed to me. That is all He requires of me.Richard

 

[treeoflife]

(RichardBurger;55940)
Oh I agree, but he referenced a time in Gen 22 to establish his ideas where Paul referenced Gen 15 to establish his. So tell me, was Abraham acconted as righteous before God in Gen 15 or not until Gen 22?James was perfectly correct considering who he was writing to and Paul was perfectly correct considering who he was writing to.The gospel James taught was fading away and being replaced by a new and better way.God had a secondary purpose for the death of Jesus on the cross. From Jesus, and the preaching of the "Kingdom of Heaven," to this time in which we now live is a new dispensation and it was not mentioned in the O.T. it was not mentioned in the first 4 books of the N.T. nor was it mentioned in the Jewish writings of the 12. This new gospel was ""hidden in God"" and revealed to Paul by Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus, Acts 9:3-6 and Eph 3:8.All that was written "to the Jews" in the O.T. and the N.T. was written "to the Jews," not to the Gentiles. Is it necessary for us to understand them? YES. If we don't then we are missing the foundation for understanding God and the shift from law to the gospel of God's grace. The message of salvation by God's grace, "alone," given to Paul, was without precedence. It was not in the Jewish relationship with God. The Jewish relationship was a religious one of "faith + works to show that faith" (James 2:24). However, the gospel of God's grace requires no works whatsoever. God has done all the works that are necessary on the cross.IMHO this is what I see in the scriptures but I know there are some on this forum that disagree. IMHO I have faithfully shown what God has revealed to me. That is all He requires of me.Richard

Okay, I thought you were saying James was confused or wrong. I'll re-read your position again and try to understand it.

 

[RichardBurger]

(treeoflife;55939)
I do have to disagree that James was making mistakes... it is a slippery slope to say that any one of the books that we have in the Bible contained the teachings of a man that was confused.I believe it is simply a matter of interpretation of James' perspective, not a matter of James being incorrect or confused. I think that we are confused sometimes, as we try to understand the full coucil of God. I know that you are trying to interpret it AROUND the Gospel (we say, the Gospel of Grace). And, on the matter of salvation (that being salvation received in Christ COMPLETELY apart from works), I know that you are compassionate about, and I would say you are "spot on." If you say that James is wrong... or confused... I would recommend a change of thought.But, I know that you are trying to bring James into the lens of salvation APART FROM WORKS (the Gospel), and for that I commend you, and I think you do a very good job... if that means anything

.
But the title got the attention of many and that was it's purpose. Just as the title of this thread is meant to get attention.

 

[RichardBurger]

I would also like to add this;Heb 7:18-22 (NKJ)18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: "The Lord has sworn and will not relent, 'You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek' "),22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenantHeb 8:6-7 (NKJ)6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.7 For if that first covenant (Law) had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.I think this plainly shows that things changed from one covenant to another.

 

[Christina]

(RichardBurger;55938)
Kriss, you are saying that I am looking for the answers. On this you are wrong. I already have the answers based on what I see in the scriptures as revealed to me by the Holy Spirit.What is obvious is that we disagee.I am 75 years old and have been a child of God since I was eight years old. I have studied the scriptures just as much as most children of God and I depend on God to reveal his words to me by the Holy Spirit.In other words, you think you are right and I think I am right.

Im saying there are no contradictions in Gods words and if its in Gods Word You can not assume James was the confused one rather than ones self. I appreciate you have been studying for a long time but to assume the Word is contrdictory rather than your understanding. Is not the same as me claiming to be right and you wrong. Gods Word is right we may both be wrong but Gods word is not wrong or contradictory... Nor would he allow a confused person to be a part of his Holy Word.

 

[RichardBurger]

(kriss;55948)
Im saying there are no contradictions in Gods words and if its in Gods Word You can not assume James was the confused one rather than ones self. I appreciate you have been studying for a long time but to assume the Word is contrdictory rather than your understanding. Is not the same as me claiming to be right and you wrong. Gods Word is right we may both be wrong but Gods word is not wrong or contradictory... Nor would he allow a confused person to be a part of his Holy Word.
Don't jump to a conclusion that I do not support. As I said to treeoflife:Quote: "Oh I agree, but he referenced a time in Gen 22 to establish his ideas where Paul referenced Gen 15 to establish his. So tell me, was Abraham acconted as righteous before God in Gen 15 or not until Gen 22?James was perfectly correct considering who he was writing to and Paul was perfectly correct considering who he was writing to.The gospel James taught was fading away and being replaced by a new and better way. 2 Cor 3:6-11 (NKJ)6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the """new covenant,""" not of the letter (Law) but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?9 For if the ministry of condemnation (the Law) had glory, the ministry of righteousness (grace) exceeds much more in glory.10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.God had a secondary purpose for the death of Jesus on the cross. From Jesus, and the preaching of the "Kingdom of Heaven," to this time in which we now live is a new dispensation and it was not mentioned in the O.T. it was not mentioned in the first 4 books of the N.T. nor was it mentioned in the Jewish writings of the 12. This new gospel was ""hidden in God"" and revealed to Paul by Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus, Acts 9:3-6 and Eph 3:8.All that was written "to the Jews" in the O.T. and the N.T. was written "to the Jews," not to the Gentiles. Is it necessary for us to understand them? YES. If we don't then we are missing the foundation for understanding God and the shift from law to the gospel of God's grace. The message of salvation by God's grace, "alone," given to Paul, was without precedence. It was not in the Jewish relationship with God. The Jewish relationship was a religious one of "faith + works to show that faith" (James 2:24). However, the gospel of God's grace requires no works whatsoever. God has done all the works that are necessary on the cross.IMHO this is what I see in the scriptures but I know there are some on this forum that disagree. IMHO I have faithfully shown what God has revealed to me in His word. That is all He requires of me, to be a faithful witness to His works.

 

[Christina]

I can not completley disagree with some of what you say but I still see no contradictions between Paul and James I think the book is greatly misunderstood the following sums up my thoughtsMartin Luther, who detested this letter and called it “the epistle of straw,” failed to recognize this very important context. While Pauline teachings concentrate on our justification with God, James’ teachings concentrate on our discourse and justification amongst each other. James was writing to Jews to encourage them in their continued growth in this new Christian faith. James emphasizes that good actions will naturally flow from those who are filled with the spirit and questions whether someone may or may not have a saving faith if the fruits of the spirit cannot be seen, much as Paul describes in Galatians 5:22-23. "Whenever trouble comes your way, let it be an opportunity for joy. For when your faith is tested, your endurance has a chance to grow" (James 1:2-3)."Be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to get angry" (James 1:19)."It isn’t enough just to have faith. Faith that doesn’t show itself by good deeds is not faith at all—it is dead and useless. Now someone may argue, 'Some people have faith; others have good deeds.' I say, 'I can’t see your faith if you don’t have good deeds, but I will show you my faith through my good deeds'” (James 2:17-18).Isn't this what we all should do ? Are we not to set an example in our walk , and does not our walk include our works and deeds? I dont see this as denying grace but rather in becoming a new person in Christ good works come as a natural progression our works are our robes/clothes on judgement day we are not saved by them, but neither do we want to be found naked This was the spirit of James teachings.

 

[Jordan]

(kriss;55956)
I can not completley disagree with some of what you say but I still see no contradictions between Paul and James I think the book is greatly misunderstood the following sums up my thoughtsMartin Luther, who detested this letter and called it “the epistle of straw,” failed to recognize this very important context. While Pauline teachings concentrate on our justification with God, James’ teachings concentrate on our discourse and justification amongst each other. James was writing to Jews to encourage them in their continued growth in this new Christian faith. James emphasizes that good actions will naturally flow from those who are filled with the spirit and questions whether someone may or may not have a saving faith if the fruits of the spirit cannot be seen, much as Paul describes in Galatians 5:22-23. "Whenever trouble comes your way, let it be an opportunity for joy. For when your faith is tested, your endurance has a chance to grow" (James 1:2-3)."Be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to get angry" (James 1:19)."It isn’t enough just to have faith. Faith that doesn’t show itself by good deeds is not faith at all—it is dead and useless. Now someone may argue, 'Some people have faith; others have good deeds.' I say, 'I can’t see your faith if you don’t have good deeds, but I will show you my faith through my good deeds'” (James 2:17-18).I dont see this as denying grace but rather in becoming a new person in Christ good works come as a natural progression our works are our robes/clothes on judgement day we are not saved by them but neither do we want to be found naked This was the spirit of James teachings.
Well said Kriss. I completely agree with you 100%.

 

[RichardBurger]

(kriss;55956)
I can not completley disagree with some of what you say but I still see no contradictions between Paul and James I think the book is greatly misunderstood the following sums up my thoughtsMartin Luther, who detested this letter and called it “the epistle of straw,” failed to recognize this very important context. While Pauline teachings concentrate on our justification with God, James’ teachings concentrate on our discourse and justification amongst each other. James was writing to Jews to encourage them in their continued growth in this new Christian faith. James emphasizes that good actions will naturally flow from those who are filled with the spirit and questions whether someone may or may not have a saving faith if the fruits of the spirit cannot be seen, much as Paul describes in Galatians 5:22-23. "Whenever trouble comes your way, let it be an opportunity for joy. For when your faith is tested, your endurance has a chance to grow" (James 1:2-3)."Be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to get angry" (James 1:19)."It isn’t enough just to have faith. Faith that doesn’t show itself by good deeds is not faith at all—it is dead and useless. Now someone may argue, 'Some people have faith; others have good deeds.' I say, 'I can’t see your faith if you don’t have good deeds, but I will show you my faith through my good deeds'” (James 2:17-18).Isn't this what we all should do ? Are we not to set an example in our walk , and does not our walk include our works and deeds? I dont see this as denying grace but rather in becoming a new person in Christ good works come as a natural progression our works are our robes/clothes on judgement day we are not saved by them, but neither do we want to be found naked This was the spirit of James teachings.
Kriss, believe it or not I can agree with what you wrote.However, the book of James has been used by the "works theology" people to try and get the children of God back under the law every since it was written.It is important to place the book in its proper place. It is a very good book on moral social living and our responcibility to others. But it does not include the grace of God message.But to use it to tie God's plan of salvation by faith back to the law is just plain wrong. But many try and do it. Many use it to try and take away our freedom in Christ and want to burden the children of God back under the law which, as we know, we can't keep and that is why Jesus' death on the cross has freed us from the curse of the Law.

 

[treeoflife]

(kriss;55956)
I can not completley disagree with some of what you say but I still see no contradictions between Paul and James I think the book is greatly misunderstood the following sums up my thoughtsMartin Luther, who detested this letter and called it “the epistle of straw,” failed to recognize this very important context. While Pauline teachings concentrate on our justification with God, James’ teachings concentrate on our discourse and justification amongst each other. James was writing to Jews to encourage them in their continued growth in this new Christian faith. James emphasizes that good actions will naturally flow from those who are filled with the spirit and questions whether someone may or may not have a saving faith if the fruits of the spirit cannot be seen, much as Paul describes in Galatians 5:22-23. "Whenever trouble comes your way, let it be an opportunity for joy. For when your faith is tested, your endurance has a chance to grow" (James 1:2-3)."Be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to get angry" (James 1:19)."It isn’t enough just to have faith. Faith that doesn’t show itself by good deeds is not faith at all—it is dead and useless. Now someone may argue, 'Some people have faith; others have good deeds.' I say, 'I can’t see your faith if you don’t have good deeds, but I will show you my faith through my good deeds'” (James 2:17-18).Isn't this what we all should do ? Are we not to set an example in our walk , and does not our walk include our works and deeds? I dont see this as denying grace but rather in becoming a new person in Christ good works come as a natural progression our works are our robes/clothes on judgement day we are not saved by them, but neither do we want to be found naked This was the spirit of James teachings.
I agree, *mostly*. Accept on one part that may just be a matter of wording. I believe our clothes are picturesque of our works (like you said), but our robe would better be assigned to what Christ gives us, by His Work.

 

[treeoflife]

(RichardBurger;55975)
Kriss, believe it or not I can agree with what you wrote.However, the book of James has been used by the "works theology" people to try and get the children of God back under the law every since it was written.It is important to place the book in its proper place. It is a very good book on moral social living and our responcibility to others. But it does not include the grace of God message.But to use it to tie God's plan of salvation by faith back to the law is just plain wrong. But many try and do it. Many use it to try and take away our freedom in Christ and want to burden the children of God back under the law which, as we know, we can't keep and that is why Jesus' death on the cross has freed us from the curse of the Law.

Amen. I think James is many Catholic's favorite book, because it can be so easily misunderstood and good for teaching others that they must inherit their salvation with some form of works.

 

[verzanumi24]

(RichardBurger;55864)
In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. Here are some facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)6. The word “cross” is not found7. The word “reconciled” is not found8. The word “sanctified” is not found9. The word “saved” is not found10. The words “in Christ” are not found
No book of the Bible is to be taken in isolation of the others; the entire Bible is inspired by God and God's intention is that we study all these books, so that we can grow in grace and in knowledge and be able to discern truth from error and show ourselves approved by God.

 

[RichardBurger]

(verzanumi24;56290)
No book of the Bible is to be taken in isolation of the others; the entire Bible is inspired by God and God's intention is that we study all these books, so that we can grow in grace and in knowledge and be able to discern truth from error and show ourselves approved by God.
So, to you, every word in the Bible is written to you. --- When are you going to build your Ark? Do you intend to start practicing the Law of Moses?`Come on, get real. In truth, the whole Bible is written FOR US to learn about God and His dealings with man. If we did not have the O.T. we could not understand that Jesus is who He said He is. If we did not have the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John we would not know how Jesus fulfilled all that was written of Him. Nor would there be any eye witness accounts of His ressurection.If we did not have the transistional book of Acts we would not see the change from Law to grace.However, not all of it is written TO US in the grace church. I have never said that the Scriptures in the Bible are not inspired by God. James was CLEARLY writing to Jews who were, at that time, still under the Law of Moses. Why don't people believe James when he wrote James 1:1? Don't they believe him? Oh, I get it, they just want to believe what they want to believe and then say, I believe the Bible.The scriptures say we must "RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH" --- certainly not "BLEND IT ALL TOGETHER."

 

[waquinas]

(RichardBurger;55903)
So sending Paul out to the Gentiles was the Jews idea and a way of getting him out of the way. On what do you base that idea.I always thought it was God that sent him out to the Gentiles. Since God was turning to the Gentiles he was to be the Apostle to the Gentiles.
Why wouldn't it be God working through others when people are given nudges or circumstances demand it? Are we saying God is not in control of those nudges or circumstamces?Stating a fact does not detract from God being in control or remove God from the cause of all things. It is a fact of his life that Paul would not be well liked by either most Jews or most Jewish converts in Jerasulem. His former life would be a distraction to his message there or any where in that vicinity. I do not think that his former life was just a coincidence.Am also quite certain Paul, as all the Apostles did, spoke with whomever he was with -see the conversion of some Roman guards. He had more success with non-Jews and it is a fact there were reasons behind that which go beyond simply saying God sent Him to the Gentiles (and not the Jews). That was all I was saying. Not that God did not send Paul out "to the World". Of course God did.

 

[verzanumi24]

(RichardBurger;56293)
So, to you, every word in the Bible is written to you. --- When are you going to build your Ark? Do you intend to start practicing the Law of Moses?`Come on, get real. In truth, the whole Bible is written FOR US to learn about God and His dealings with man. If we did not have the O.T. we could not understand that Jesus is who He said He is. If we did not have the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John we would not know how Jesus fulfilled all that was written of Him. Nor would there be any eye witness accounts of His ressurection.If we did not have the transistional book of Acts we would not see the change from Law to grace.However, not all of it is written TO US in the grace church. I have never said that the Scriptures in the Bible are not inspired by God. James was CLEARLY writing to Jews who were, at that time, still under the Law of Moses. Why don't people believe James when he wrote James 1:1? Don't they believe him? Oh, I get it, they just want to believe what they want to believe and then say, I believe the Bible.The scriptures say we must "RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH" --- certainly not "BLEND IT ALL TOGETHER."
If your response was more respectful and Christian I would tell you how, but unfortunately you're attitude does not reflect Christ, so I will not.

 

[RichardBurger]

(verzanumi24;56303)
If your response was more respectful and Christian I would tell you how, but unfortunately you're attitude does not reflect Christ, so I will not.
You assume that what I said was in angry, or as a slight, and it was neither. Sorry your feeling get hurt so easily.Oh! incidently, don't tell me how. Just share your opinion.Richard

 

[RichardBurger]

(waquinas;56298)
Why wouldn't it be God working through others when people are given nudges or circumstances demand it? Are we saying God is not in control of those nudges or circumstamces?Stating a fact does not detract from God being in control or remove God from the cause of all things. It is a fact of his life that Paul would not be well liked by either most Jews or most Jewish converts in Jerasulem. His former life would be a distraction to his message there or any where in that vicinity. I do not think that his former life was just a coincidence.Am also quite certain Paul, as all the Apostles did, spoke with whomever he was with -see the conversion of some Roman guards. He had more success with non-Jews and it is a fact there were reasons behind that which go beyond simply saying God sent Him to the Gentiles (and not the Jews). That was all I was saying. Not that God did not send Paul out "to the World". Of course God did.
Why are we in this conversation? I never said God was NOT in control. I said just the opposite, that God sent Paul out with a ""hidden in God"" gospel.Of course he (Paul) told everyone that would listen about the gospel of grace. After all that is what God sent him out to do and it is what we are supposed to be doing.

 

[verzanumi24]

(RichardBurger;56340)
You assume that what I said was in angry, or as a slight, and it was neither. Sorry your feeling get hurt so easily.Oh! incidently, don't tell me how. Just share your opinion.Richard

Your response came across as sarcastic (I do not answer sarcastic questions) and was inappropriate to what I said.

 

[RichardBurger]

(verzanumi24;56398)
Your response came across as sarcastic (I do not answer sarcastic questions) and was inappropriate to what I said.
Then don't!

 

[waquinas]

(RichardBurger;56341)
Why are we in this conversation? I never said God was NOT in control. I said just the opposite, that God sent Paul out with a ""hidden in God"" gospel.Of course he (Paul) told everyone that would listen about the gospel of grace. After all that is what God sent him out to do and it is what we are supposed to be doing.
We are in this conversation because you implied I said God was NOT in control when you said
So sending Paul out to the Gentiles was the Jews idea and a way of getting him out of the way. On what do you base that idea.I always thought it was God that sent him out to the Gentiles. Since God was turning to the Gentiles he was to be the Apostle to the Gentiles.
My response was to ask why you thought the reasons behind Paul being sent out by the other Apostles were not in God's control since you seemed to think my statement indicated something other than God being in control. You know there was a time when people believed everything, including the actions of others and circumstances of our lives was in God's control, perhaps am old fashioned in that regard or simply misuunderstanding you.Again, am simply stating that there were reasons Paul was not a big hit in Jerusalem and those reasons were part of why he was sent out and all of that was God's Hand.