IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[Doug]

Who are the ones taken.?
Exactly who?

The wicked unbelievers........the tares....the chaff

[Luk 17:35-37 KJV] 35 Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together.

They asked where they were taken and Christ said in judgment

 

[rebuilder 454]

Sorry it took so long to respond
You are right but this is a reversal.....those left will enter the kingdom instead of facing judgement

There are several points of interest that also make the wicked taken troublesome. Because we have 2 men in a bed, one is taken the other is left. ( according to Jesus)
So, if I'm gonna say in the group that half is taken, we have an Antichrist satan worshiper in bed , (A theorized wicked man), with a Holy Spirit filled Christian, i'm gonna say that's yet another impossibility.

Another streatch, would be that when Jesus says the " flood took them away", that it would somehow translate, in Jesus analogy, to; the "half wicked taken" , theory.
DOES NOT REMOTELY FIT.
What is really happening is the OMITTED BY POSTRIBBERS wording of Jesus; " AND THEY KNEW NOT UNTIL"
Meaning suddenness...NOT earth's population destroyed

So postribbers have a mess.
A really bad mess of theorizing, a impossible " one coming" , and several dynamics that DO NOT FIT crammed and hammered into " the wicked gathered at the second coming along with the church raptured."

It is simply impossible.
None if it fits.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The wicked unbelievers........the tares....the chaff

[Luk 17:35-37 KJV] 35 Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together.

They asked where they were taken and Christ said in judgment

No he did not.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The wicked unbelievers........the tares....the chaff

[Luk 17:35-37 KJV] 35 Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together.

They asked where they were taken and Christ said in judgment

Look closely at Mat 24, and ask yourself if Jesus is telling half of earth's population (The theory of supposedly " wicked taken" in a wicked rapture),to watch and be ready for the LOF.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Problematic?

The theory of eagles and dead bodies component of Jesus proverb being where those raptured are LITTERALLY TAKEN , is man's mental unpacking.

The "eagles answer", by Jesus , is a proverb, not a literal place.

 

[Doug]

There are several points of interest that also make the wicked taken troublesome. Because we have 2 men in a bed, one is taken the other 1 to left. ( according to Jesus)
So, if I'm gonna say in the group that half is taken, we have an Antichrist satan worshiper in bed with a Holy Spirit filled Christian, i'm gonna say that's yet another impossibility.

[Mat 13:30 KJV] 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Jesus is saying the just and the unjust will not be separated til he comes

 

[Doug]

The "eagles answer", by Jesus , is a proverb, not a literal place.

[Rev 19:17 KJV] 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

The eagles is literal at his coming

 

[rebuilder 454]

Where I'd the " half taken is wicked earth's population" get it's beginning?

It HAS to be rooted in the notion of Jesus proverb of eagles and corpses.

Nothing in there, save the wicked people destroyed by the flood, indicates those taken one are half earth's wicked population.

Half earth's population is wicked?
Not even remotely possible.
Half earth's population destroyed in the flood?
Nope nope nope.
Jesus tells the wicked to watch and be ready?
No way.
Jesus said "BEFORE THE FLOOD" Wicked are taken pretrib?
TOTALLY IMPLAUSIBLE

 

[rebuilder 454]

[Mat 13:30 KJV] 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Jesus is saying the just and the unjust will not be separated til he comes

You just pointed out they were harvested together.
THEN SEPARATED
Your example is AFTER THE MIL.
AT THE GWTJ.

SO far you are unable to make a case for the wicked gathered first.

 

[rebuilder 454]

[Rev 19:17 KJV] 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

The eagles is literal at his coming

If you mentally unpack it then every trumpet is exactly the same.
Are there eagles at Armageddon...yes
Are the ones taken before the flood wicked.?

Some torture 6 dynamics to make Jesus telling the ones raptured, "be ready for eagles to eat your dead bodies."

 

[rebuilder 454]

[Mat 13:30 KJV] 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Jesus is saying the just and the unjust will not be separated til he comes

Luke 3
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Jesus said the wheat gathered first.

What does it prove?
It proves Jesus threw the "ones taken are always wicked first:" theory out the window.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The wicked are burned at the GWTJ.
After the mil.

Jesus said the harvest is "THE END OF THE WORLD"

How can Posttrib rapture twist 20 dynamics to cling to the "one taken is wicked"?

I will stick to the bible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Question.
Has anyone ever seen a postribber quote Luke 3, Where Jesus says that the righteous are gethered first?

I just shake my head because.
It has nothing to do with the rapture whatsoever, because in every single case, It's talking about tares being burned in the lake of fire.
The GWTJ

 

[Scott Downey]

Where I'd the " half taken is wicked earth's population" get it's beginning?

It HAS to be rooted in the notion of Jesus proverb of eagles and corpses.

Nothing in there, save the wicked people destroyed by the flood, indicates those taken one are half earth's wicked population.

Half earth's population is wicked?
Not even remotely possible.
Half earth's population destroyed in the flood?
Nope nope nope.
Jesus tells the wicked to watch and be ready?
No way.
Jesus said "BEFORE THE FLOOD" Wicked are taken pretrib?
TOTALLY IMPLAUSIBLE

There is only the wicked and the righteous.
If you are not with Christ, then you are against Christ (antichrist)
And they disobey God's command to the world to repent and believe in His Son, who is coming to judge the world in righteousness, and none are righteous except for those who are in Christ by faith, the righteousness by faith.

Matthew 12:30
He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

 

[Scott Downey]

When Jesus comes it will be like the time of Noah (which also proves the full preterist position null and void)
No one survived Noah's flood except those 8 people God preserved in the ark. They remained alive, while all the wicked were taken away by the flood, it swept them all away to destruction.

Read it carefully, who is taken away?
Matthew 24
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [g]hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what [h]hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

 

[Scott Downey]

The wicked are burned at the GWTJ.
After the mil.

Jesus said the harvest is "THE END OF THE WORLD"

How can Posttrib rapture twist 20 dynamics to cling to the "one taken is wicked"?

I will stick to the bible.

Taken would imply their life is taken from them.
Their spirits depart their body as they are killed.
The Holy Angels of God gather them up, binding them, their fate to burned at His command, so yes, they are taken away to punishment in hellfire.

 

[Scott Downey]

That's not actually what the passage says. There is the gathering unto the Lord, and there is the day of Christ/day of the LORD (depending on your ms.). If you consider these to be the same thing, you are interpreting by your own ideas, but not what is solely in the text. The text does not say that.

If they were in fact the same thing, why would the people be troubled over some one saying "that day is now here"? Check the wording and grammar.

What Paul is saying here is, don't be troubled concerning our being gathered to Jesus because someone is telling you the day of the Lord is here. That day, the day of the Lord, won't come until these other things happen first.

Ergo:

These things haven't happened, so you can know the Day of the Lord is not here. So that being the case, don't be troubled concerning your being gathered to Jesus.

Ask yourself, if the rapture of the church and the Day of the Lord are the same thing, why would they be troubled at someone saying "the day of the Lord is here". The wording "is at hand" is from the Greek enestiken, which is the Perfect Tense for "has in stood", which is to say, "It's arrived, and is here." If they thought that these were the same thing, this would be understood as someone telling them, "It's Rapture Day!"

Don't be worried about being raptured to Jesus, just because someone is telling you "it's the Day of the LORD". Because it's not. The prerequisites haven't happened yet.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Much love!

And the full preterists say the Day of the Lord is in the past.
Can you imagine why thinking that way has become so popular?
They do not like the sudden destruction teaching at Christ's return.
I talked to pastor who is a full preterist, and he says that is too scary and he won't teach scary stuff like that.
That guys idea is the world is steadily becoming better and better and more Christianized, and the Christ cannot return until the whole world is converted and saved. I don't get how the elders let him into the position. I talked with them and they all said we like him, and it is not a salvation issue...
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1 Thess 5
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
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For His people we believe the warnings, and the signs before His return, so Jesus said when we see these things begin to happen look up for your redemption draws close.

And this also supports the post trib view, as when you see these things happening, you know Christ is at the doors ready to return, as you are witnessing them.
The church suffers persecution and tribulation, but will NOT experience wrath of God which comes on the wicked (antichrists) at Christ's return

2 Thessalonian 1 is post trib, read it carefully.
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God’s Final Judgment and Glory​

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

 

[Scott Downey]

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

When He Comes is our salvation from this wicked and perverse generation.
Example
Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

When He comes he delivers us from this evil world, in a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In other words, the last day.
Because when Jesus returns it is the Last Day, it is the resurrection and the judgment.
And the wicked are destroyed at His coming in a fiery destruction.

 

[Scott Downey]

2 Thess 2 again shows us what happens

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

VERSUS US who believed, whom God chose for salvation

13 But we are [f]bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through [g]sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our [h]epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and [i]establish you in every good word and work.
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His second coming is for our salvation and their, the others, destruction.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Taken would imply their life is taken from them.
Their spirits depart their body as they are killed.
The Holy Angels of God gather them up, binding them, their fate to burned at His command, so yes, they are taken away to punishment in hellfiunplayable..

Nope Jesus said preflood gathering.
You reframed it to after the mil.


According to Jesus:
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

When you turn the "before the flood gathering"
Into the tares burned at the GWTJ, It becomes a Mish mash of error. A huge mess that is totally unplausable.

 

[Scott Downey]

Nope Jesus said preflood gathering.
You reframed it to after the mil.


According to Jesus:
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

When you turn the "before the flood gathering"
Into the tares burned at the GWTJ, It becomes a Mish mash of error. A huge mess that is totally unplausible.

I know why you are so resistant, it really upends your entire eschatology frame of mind.
Long time ago, I was a fan of the 'left behind series', but the scriptures I read were at odds with what they claimed.