IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?
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The rapture was a mystery unknown til revealed to Paul and is not the second coming
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
Not really, the Lord did that catching away thing with Elijah and Enoch
The Lord also has a long track record of rescuing His faithful from certain destruction
CINOs need not apply, they will be left behind speaking of the non faithful "Christian in name only" bunch
Yes it is but during the ministry of Christ and earlier Acts all they had to believe was his name....this was the common faith
Jesus knew all about it and it is in the parable of the wheat and tares and in 1 Thess 4, are the classic rapture verses.
Gather His elect is the rapture
Mark 13:27
And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Thank You and let's go a little further
That should read the words of Christ who sent the Holy Spirit who spoke THRU the Apostles = Acts chapters 1 & 2 = the Beginning
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
Yep, we should always remind people that the Apostles were not just dreaming stuff up to write
They wrote what the Holy Spirit was telling them to write!
I've actually run across a few people that would claim we should only pay attention to the red letters speaking of believing only what Jesus said in the Gospels and we should ignore the rest of the New Testament.
They wrote what the Holy Spirit was telling them to write!
I've actually run across a few people that would claim we should only pay attention to the red letters speaking of believing only what Jesus said in the Gospels and we should ignore the rest of the New Testament.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
and i say heed them not . Its all for our good . Now to the trenches
for the hour is late and the delusion grows great .
Not a single person, to include Noah in the flood, Lot in Sodom, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in the furnace, or Daniel in the lions den were removed from the earth during tribulation(s). the Bible is full of typologies. Listen to them. They were all saved or protected in their faith and obedience. Just as Hebrews 11 goes on to state about Faith.
But we also know some will face persecution, and will lose their life. Just as the letters to the churches tell us. Just like the Apostles, and Believers did throughout history. We also know some will not die And will be caught up and not see death.
i.e. DON’T take the mark, DON’T Deny Jesus Christ
Enoch nor Elijah were not in tribulation when they were translated, they are a typology of those whom will be translated. Same as Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [Isa. 13:10; 34:4; Joel 2:10, 11; Zeph. 1:15.]
Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor]. [Dan. 7:13; Rev. 1:7.]
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after [the affliction and oppression and distress of] that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; [Isa. 13:10.]
Mark 13:25 And the stars will be falling from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. [Isa. 34:4.]
Mark 13:26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great (kingly) power and glory (majesty and splendor). [Dan. 7:13, 14.]
Luke 21:25 And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth [there will be] distress (trouble and anguish) of nations in bewilderment and perplexity [without resources, left wanting, embarrassed, in doubt, not knowing which way to turn] at the roaring (the echo) of the tossing of the sea, [Isa. 13:10; Joel 2:10; Zeph. 1:15.]
Luke 21:26 Men swooning away or expiring with fear and dread and apprehension and expectation of the things that are coming on the world; for the [very] powers of the heavens will be shaken and caused to totter.
Luke 21:27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with great (transcendent and overwhelming) power and [all His kingly] glory (majesty and splendor). [Dan. 7:13, 14.]
The Order of Resurrection
1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own rank and turn: Christ (the Messiah) [is] the firstfruits, then those who are Christ's [own will be resurrected] at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed).
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord!
The Answer: immediately after the tribulation, at His coming, at the last trump.
Everyone is going through tribulation. Just like those at the beginning of this post did in their time. Gird up your loins.
But we also know some will face persecution, and will lose their life. Just as the letters to the churches tell us. Just like the Apostles, and Believers did throughout history. We also know some will not die And will be caught up and not see death.
i.e. DON’T take the mark, DON’T Deny Jesus Christ
Enoch nor Elijah were not in tribulation when they were translated, they are a typology of those whom will be translated. Same as Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [Isa. 13:10; 34:4; Joel 2:10, 11; Zeph. 1:15.]
Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor]. [Dan. 7:13; Rev. 1:7.]
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after [the affliction and oppression and distress of] that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; [Isa. 13:10.]
Mark 13:25 And the stars will be falling from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. [Isa. 34:4.]
Mark 13:26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great (kingly) power and glory (majesty and splendor). [Dan. 7:13, 14.]
Luke 21:25 And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth [there will be] distress (trouble and anguish) of nations in bewilderment and perplexity [without resources, left wanting, embarrassed, in doubt, not knowing which way to turn] at the roaring (the echo) of the tossing of the sea, [Isa. 13:10; Joel 2:10; Zeph. 1:15.]
Luke 21:26 Men swooning away or expiring with fear and dread and apprehension and expectation of the things that are coming on the world; for the [very] powers of the heavens will be shaken and caused to totter.
Luke 21:27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with great (transcendent and overwhelming) power and [all His kingly] glory (majesty and splendor). [Dan. 7:13, 14.]
The Order of Resurrection
1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own rank and turn: Christ (the Messiah) [is] the firstfruits, then those who are Christ's [own will be resurrected] at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed).
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord!
The Answer: immediately after the tribulation, at His coming, at the last trump.
Everyone is going through tribulation. Just like those at the beginning of this post did in their time. Gird up your loins.
Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
Paul did not form the body of Christ, he merely explained it by teaching the analogy - 1 Corinthians 12:4-27 (WEB):
(4) Now there are various kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.
(5) There are various kinds of service, and the same Lord.
(6) There are various kinds of workings, but the same God, who works all things in all.
(7) But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the profit of all.
(8) For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom, and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;
(9) to another faith, by the same Spirit; and to another gifts of healings, by the same Spirit;
(10) and to another workings of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits; to another different kinds of languages; and to another the interpretation of languages.
(11) But the one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing to each one separately as he desires.
(12) For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ.
(13) For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit.
(14) For the body is not one member, but many.
(15) If the foot would say, “Because I’m not the hand, I’m not part of the body,” it is not therefore not part of the body.
(16) If the ear would say, “Because I’m not the eye, I’m not part of the body,” it’s not therefore not part of the body.
(17) If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the smelling be?
(18) But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body, just as he desired.
(19) If they were all one member, where would the body be?
(20) But now they are many members, but one body.
(21) The eye can’t tell the hand, “I have no need for you,” or again the head to the feet, “I have no need for you.”
(22) No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary.
(23) Those parts of the body which we think to be less honorable, on those we bestow more abundant honor; and our unpresentable parts have more abundant propriety;
(24) whereas our presentable parts have no such need. But God composed the body together, giving more abundant honor to the inferior part,
(25) that there should be no division in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.
(26) When one member suffers, all the members suffer with it. Or when one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
(27) Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
About heaven and earth passing away at the return of Christ, Jesus teaches us that too, it is right at that time.
Christ also returns at 'night' the natural lights of creation are dimmed and go out.
He will return in bright flaming glory, every eye will see Him, I suppose even the blind will see Him returning, descending from heaven, coming on the clouds of heaven.
The ones mourning are not happy! It means their doom and destruction. The trumpet sounds and the dead will be raised and we shall all be changed, all of the creation will be changed. The former things will pass away.
About our rapture, the 4 winds are those elect in Him on earth and heaven as Mark 13 says
21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the [g]elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
The Coming of the Son of Man
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [h]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.Matthew 24
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.The Parable of the Fig Tree
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that [e]it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.No One Knows the Day or Hour
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [g]hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what [h]hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.The Faithful Servant and the Evil Servant
45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food [i]in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying [j]his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Yes
All the Apostles knew the gospel message.
Otherwise it would be 2 Holy Spirits writing the Bible,
I would think it is comical that we do not actually know who wrote Hebrews.
So Pauline's would have to play it safe, and reject it also.
But it gets worse for them, because it was to "HEBREWS"
LOL
IOW....the Holy Spirit is way way way ahead of that heresy presented by hyper paulines.
Of course
a mystery is hidden wisdom ,,,,,,,,it is something not made known until revealed
[Eph 3:9 KJV] 9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Paul himself would have rebuked those who preach pauline doctrine .
Cuase it contradicts paul himself . But they cannot see this .
What is known as pauline , Was not of paul , was not of Christ it was a blending of something
that men desired , NOT GOD .
I have watched men pit paul against james
jude against paul , peter against paul and so on it goes .
NOT a one of them contradicted TRUTH nor one another .
Every letter written is for the good of the church .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
When inquity has risen and its love has replaced the Love of GOD for a lie
a lie that promises them this is the solution to world peace n safety
THEN KNOW and understand ITS AT THE DOOR .
Now let the reader of and readers of this reminder
GO to and behold this world and worse this christendom .
SEE what it embraces and calls love and loving
see what most the churches now embrace and call love and loving
And see that they cry THIS IS THE WAY to attain world peace n safety as they all follow the anti christ broad path
to what they beleive can attain peace but shall attain ONLY MOURNING from their lips on the DAY OF THE LORD
WHEN HE COMETH to tread the great winepress of GOD all mighty upon all who loved a lie
and had rejected THE TRUE CHRIST .
You might want to consider another view on the wheat and the tares
It is not about the rapture
[Mat 13:39, 41 KJV] 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. ... 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
The harvest is the end of the world when Christ comes to establish his earthly kingdom......he will remove the unjust from his kingdom and judge them
Note this is not the rapture.........it is the end of the world
The righteous who are the believing Israel will enter the kingdom
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
[Mar 13:24 KJV] 24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
This verse says it occurs AFTER the tribulation................isnt the rapture before the tribulation?
[Mar 13:27 KJV] 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
The elect is believing Israel who have been scattered
