IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[The Gospel of Christ]

Paul did call the church the body elect but Israel is also elect..........you have to look at surrounding text for the best identification

Now you’re admitting that the Church is “the elect”?
Great — we’re finally getting somewhere.

Because in Matthew 24, Jesus says:

“Immediately after the tribulation… He shall gather together His elect…”
— Matthew 24:29–31

You just admitted the Church is called the elect.
But now you're playing word games — arguing it’s a different elect in this context, because your Scofield system can’t handle the plain meaning of the text.

Here’s the problem:
The only way this isn’t referring to the Church is if Jesus was being deliberately vague — hiding the truth and confusing future believers with misleading language.

That’s not interpretation.
That’s evasion.

Jesus didn’t say, “He will gather ethnic Israel.”
He said, “His elect.”

Paul uses the exact same word — eklektos — for believers in Christ (Romans 8:33, Colossians 3:12, Titus 1:1).
Not just once, but over and over again.

You don’t get to claim “elect” means Christians in Paul’s letters but “Jews only” in prophecy —
unless your theology requires Christ and Paul to contradict each other.

Which is exactly what blasphemous Scofieldism does:
It splits the Body of Christ in half, pits the Gospels against the Epistles, and rewrites God’s covenant around ethnic favoritism instead of faith in Christ.

That’s not theology.
That’s heresy in a leather-bound study Bible.
And it’s led millions to believe that the direct words of Jesus Christ — don’t apply to them.
Which is nothing short of spiritual insanity.

Now if you're still claiming “we have to look at the surrounding text for context” — great. Let’s do that:

Jesus is talking to His own disciples.
He warns them of deception, tribulation, and the need for endurance.
He says, “When YOU see…” — not “when they see…”
And He concludes with, “He will gather His elect.”

There is nothing in the surrounding text that says “Jews only.”
There is nothing that says “the Church is already gone.”

That’s not coming from Scripture.
That’s coming from Scofield’s margins.

The elect are those in Christ.
And Jesus says they are gathered after the tribulation — not before, not secretly, and not by race or nationality.

So again, let’s be clear:

Either you believe Jesus Christ, the Son of God —
or you believe a manmade prophecy chart cooked up by Scofield, Darby, and their Zionist backers in the 1800s.

Choose your foundation:
The words of Jesus… or the footnotes of a convicted con man.

 

[Doug]

Who was “taken away” in Noah’s day?
The wicked.
The ones who mocked. The ones who didn’t believe. The ones who were swept away in judgment.

Noah was left behind — alive, preserved, delivered.

Jesus explicitly says:
“Just like that — so it will be when I return.”

So how on earth are you flipping that to mean the righteous are “taken”?

Jesus was saying as in the days of Noah they were unaware.......the wicked were not taken they were left to be judged,,,,Noah and family were saved

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Actually Jesus was saying the kingdom was at hand .....the tribulation in which they had to endure til the end was therefore at hand as well..........the tribulation precedes the kingdom to separate believing Israel from unbelievers

what verse are you saying says the dead are raised

But our gathering together is a mystery hidden so how could it be in prophecy in Matthew?

Ah, there it is — the last refuge of Scofieldian desperation:

“But our gathering is a mystery, so it can’t be in Matthew!”

Translation:
“If Jesus said it, it must not apply to us.”

Let me break this down:

Yes, Paul calls the resurrection/rapture a “mystery” in 1 Corinthians 15 — meaning it was previously unrevealed in full, not that it was nonexistent in prophecy.

The word “mystery” (μυστήριον) in the New Testament doesn’t mean “something brand new God just made up” — it means something formerly hidden and now revealed in the light of Christ.

Jesus revealed it in Matthew 24.
Paul explained it in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15.
Same sequence.
Same event.
Same people.

So stop pretending the Lord of the Church can’t talk about the Church because you read a Scofield chart.

Jesus says:
He returns
A trumpet sounds
The elect are gathered
After the tribulation

Paul says:
The Lord descends
A trumpet sounds
The dead in Christ rise
We are gathered together with them

You're not defending “mystery.”
You're using it as a magic eraser to wipe out anything Jesus said that doesn’t fit your Scofield/Darby fantasy timeline.

Bottom line:

If your theology says the words of Jesus Christ don’t apply to you,
then your problem isn’t with prophecy —
your problem is with Jesus.

You’re not rightly dividing.
You’re boldly rejecting the voice of the King, because a convicted con man told you to.

 

[Doug]

And then you quoted Matthew 24:28 —
“Wherever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.”

That verse is about judgment — not blessing.

Same with Luke 17:37 — the disciples ask “Where are they taken, Lord?”
And Jesus says: Where the corpses are, the vultures will be.

That’s not the kingdom of God —
That’s a corpse pile.

You’re not describing saved believers being gathered to the kingdom —

Thats right the wicked will be destroyed when Christ returns......he will destroy those who waged war against him......the believing remnant will enter the kingdom but the wicked will be supper for the fowl

 

[Doug]

You’re now claiming being devoured by vultures in judgment is the rapture for believing Jews?

that is not what I plainly say........reread my replies....I say Matthew 24 is not the rapture

 

[Doug]

You don’t get to claim “elect” means Christians in Paul’s letters but “Jews only” in prophecy —
unless your theology requires Christ and Paul to contradict each other.

The elect in Matthew have to be Jews and not the church the body of Christ since the body of Christ wasnt formed til mid acts upon Paul's conversion
The gathering Paul speaks of being a mystery and cant be in prophecy in Matthew

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Jesus was saying as in the days of Noah they were unaware.......the wicked were not taken they were left to be judged,,,,Noah and family were saved

Now we’ve moved the Scofield goalposts again.

You're admitting the wicked were taken in the flood — but now claiming that when Jesus references it, He suddenly means something totally different by “taken”?

That’s not exegesis.
That’s theological fraud.

Jesus said:
“The flood came and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.” — Matthew 24:39

“So shall it be.”

Not “kind of like that.”
Not “opposite of that.”
Not “forget everything I just said, now I mean rapture.”

He defines the pattern. He locks the meaning.

The flood took the wicked.
Noah remained.
Jesus says: Just like that — so will My return be.

And now you're telling me He meant the righteous will be “taken” and the wicked “left”?

That’s not a misreading —
That’s Dispensationalists calling Jesus a liar to protect their Scofield study notes.

You’re saying He used the flood as a direct comparison…
but meant the opposite of what actually happened this time?

That’s satanic logic.
“Did God really say…?”

This is what happens when you elevate a Scofield prophecy chart above the words of Christ.
You end up butchering the clearest teaching He gave on His return —
and then pretending the blood-washed saints get swept away in the same category as those drowned in wrath.

You're not following Scripture.
You're rewriting it to preserve a doctrine Jesus never taught.

And if you think “taken” suddenly changes its meaning mid-sentence,
then you’ve let Scofield do what Satan did in the garden:
Twist the Word of God until it serves rebellion.

So let’s be clear:

Jesus wasn’t being cryptic.
He wasn’t being symbolic.
He was warning you.

And yet Dispensationalists have taken His warning… and rewritten it into a rapture scene.

A passage where Jesus clearly says the wicked are taken in judgment —
they’ve twisted into a feel-good escape hatch for the Church.

They’ve turned a prophetic warning into a Hollywood, Left Behind fantasy.
They’ve made judgment look like salvation, and called it doctrine.

That’s not just bad theology.
That’s doctrinal malpractice.

 

[Doug]

Yes, Paul calls the resurrection/rapture a “mystery” in 1 Corinthians 15 — meaning it was previously unrevealed in full, not that it was nonexistent in prophecy.

[Col 1:26 KJV] 26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

If it was made known in Matthew then it could not be hid

 

[Doug]

Jesus says:
He returns
A trumpet sounds
The elect are gathered
After the tribulation

what happened to the risen dead you said was in Matthew? Please give me that verse

 

[Doug]

You're admitting the wicked were taken in the flood — but now claiming that when Jesus references it, He suddenly means something totally different by “taken”?

That has no bearing on Matthew saying the wicked were left to be slain and supper for the fowls..

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

that is not what I plainly say........reread my replies....I say Matthew 24 is not the rapture

The elect in Matthew have to be Jews and not the church the body of Christ since the body of Christ wasnt formed til mid acts upon Paul's conversion
The gathering Paul speaks of being a mystery and cant be in prophecy in Matthew

“The elect in Matthew can’t be the Church, because the Church didn’t exist yet.”
“Paul’s gathering was a mystery, so Jesus couldn’t have talked about it.”

So let me get this straight:

You’re saying Jesus Christ — the eternal Word made flesh — couldn’t reference the Church…
because the Church wasn’t “officially formed” until Paul’s conversion in Acts?

That’s not doctrine.
That’s spiritual madness.

Let’s make this simple:

If Jesus "couldn’t be talking about the Church" because it didn’t exist yet…
then by that logic, Paul can’t be talking to you either — because you didn’t exist yet.

Congratulations.
You just sawed off the entire New Testament… and buried yourself under it.

Here’s the truth:

“Upon this rock I will build My Church…” — Matthew 16:18
Jesus Himself said it.
The Church was in His plan before Paul ever breathed a word.

This whole “the Church began mid-Acts” garbage isn’t biblical —
it’s a Scofield hallucination designed to split the Bible into pieces and cut the voice of Jesus out of His own Body.

And as for your “mystery” excuse?

Yes — Paul called the resurrection and rapture a mystery revealed (1 Cor. 15:51).
That means it was hidden in clarity, not that it was absent from prophecy.

A mystery revealed is still something God always intended —and Jesus began revealing it long before Paul gave it a name.

You’re using the word “mystery” like a theological magic wand —
to erase anything Jesus said that contradicts your Scofield fantasy timeline.

Let me ask you this:

If Jesus and Paul are preaching two different end-time events, to two different peoples, under two different covenants…

Then what Gospel are you even following?
Because that’s not one Body.
That’s not one Shepherd.
That’s not one gathering.

That’s not Christianity.
That’s Scofieldian schizophrenia — and it’s tearing the Word of God into pieces just to protect a delusion.

You’re so desperate to defend your system, you’ve now accused Jesus of being incapable of prophesying about His own Church…
and painted Paul as preaching a secret escape Jesus never mentioned.

Let me help you:
Jesus is the cornerstone.
Paul built on His words, not in spite of them.

So stop acting like Paul came to correct the Son of God.

If your theology says Jesus wasn’t talking to the Church,
then you’re not rightly dividing —
you’re violently amputating.

This forum needs a self-help section for misled Christians to recover from a century of Satanic Zionist Scofield brainwashing.

 

[Doug]

You're admitting the wicked were taken in the flood — but now claiming that when Jesus references it, He suddenly means something totally different by “taken”?

Look at this verse.......................[Luk 17:36-37 KJV] 36 Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together...............they were only asking where these two people were......those left would be food for the fowls

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

[Col 1:26 KJV] 26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

If it was made known in Matthew then it could not be hid

what happened to the risen dead you said was in Matthew? Please give me that verse

That has no bearing on Matthew saying the wicked were left to be slain and supper for the fowls..

So now you're trying to tell me that when Paul says the mystery was "hidden from ages and generations," that means Jesus couldn’t possibly speak of it in any form?

Let me help lurkers reading this what a mystery revealed actually means:

It doesn’t mean God never hinted at it.
It means He didn’t reveal it fully or clearly until the appointed time — and when He did, He didn’t contradict Himself.

“I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.”
— Matthew 13:35

So according to your Scofield logic, Jesus can’t teach about mysteries, even though He literally says He’s doing that?
That’s not theology.
That’s Scofield gaslighting.

You asked, “Where is the resurrection of the dead in Matthew 24?”

Let me spell it out for you:
Jesus says He returns
There’s a loud trumpet
He sends His angels
The elect are gathered from one end of heaven to the other

So let me ask you:

Who’s coming from heaven when the elect are gathered?

The risen dead.

That matches exactly what Paul says:
“The Lord shall descend… the dead in Christ shall rise first… then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them…”
— 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17

Same sequence.
Same event.
Same gathering.

You're not asking for clarity — you're hoping I can't connect the dots that Jesus already laid out for you.

As for your new dodge:
“That has no bearing on Matthew saying the wicked were left to be slain and supper for the fowls…”

You're now arguing that “left” means judged, and “taken” means saved — in the exact same passage where Jesus says:
“The flood came and took them all away — so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.”

You’re now assigning reverse meanings to plain terms in the same breath Jesus uses them — because your Scofield system absolutely depends on it.

You say “taken” = raptured
But Jesus says “taken” = swept away in judgment

You say “left” = judged
But Noah was left behind — and he lived

That’s not biblical interpretation.
That’s Scofield-induced delusion.

Your doctrine doesn’t just deny Scripture —
It calls Jesus a liar and Paul His cleaner.

So let’s stop pretending this is a good faith discussion.
Your theology says:
Jesus couldn't speak about His own Church
He didn’t know about the rapture
His warnings don’t apply to believers
Paul preached a different gospel
And now “taken” means saved and “left” means condemned

You're not defending truth.
You’re defending a century-old Zionist deception that’s blinded millions of Christians to the words of their own King.

This isn’t rightly dividing.
This is satanically amputating the Word of God.

This isn’t Bible study.
This is an exorcism —
and Scofield is the demon.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
1Thess 4:13-17 predicts the sudden removal of everyone on earth unified
with Christ, both the living and the dead. The Bible gives no date for the
event.

I've watched a number of films pertaining to the rapture and every one of
them left out the part where the remains of 2,000 years of deceased
believers from all over the globe will be restored to life.

The films also left out the part where folks unified with Christ rise into the air
to meet him. Instead the films showed them here one second and gone the
next, but I rather suspect the event should be easily observed all 'round the
world if it proceeds as described because 2,000 years of believers added to
the world's current number of believers, will likely construct a flash mob
resembling a mini Oort Cloud when they levitate together all at one time to
rendezvous with Christ up in the sky.

The mob is likely to get pretty noisy too what with all the cheering, laughing,
and shouting that's sure to take place when Jesus' followers receive their
new bodies; which of course will be immune to death and the aging process.
(1Cor 15:51-53)

* The blink component of the rapture pertains to the quickness of the
miraculous transformation that Jesus' followers will undergo during the
event. (1Cor 15:51-52)

The films also showed tiny children being taken while their parents are left
behind. That's highly doubtful because minors have often been collateral
damage in the Bible when God slammed their parents, e.g. zero children
survived the Flood, and 120,00 would've been lost had God found it
necessary to follow thru with His threat to annihilate Nineveh. (Jonah 4:11)

"We who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in
the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." (1Thess 4:17)

I was a young paratrooper with the 101st Airborne Division during the
Cuban missile crises. My unit was fully armed and equipped, ready to be in
the air within one hour had President Kennedy given us the green light.

Anyway, my point is: I was always amazed how quiet and peaceful it is
outside an aircraft in the open atmosphere. (Well; except maybe for a few
guys around me whooping and yelling to each other; but other than that:
just silence. Some guys loved jumping but for me it was only duty and a way
to earn a little extra pay.)

Now; I've seen lots of photos of the earth from space but I have never seen
it from space with my own eyes. That'll be a treat. However; I expect the
ride up to be kinda scary because with a parachute, at least I had something
to hang on to, but in space I'll be walking on air (so to speak) with no visible
means of support.

NOTE: People left behind shouldn't let the rapture cause them panic because
it isn't the end of the world. They can still get themselves spared retribution
and perdition, i.e. it's not like all hope is lost. In point of fact, vast numbers
of folks from all over the globe will be spared during the interlude between
the rapture and Christ's feet touching down on the ground to set up the
kingdom conditions predicted by the prophets in the old testament. (Rev
7:9-14)
_

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Let’s be very clear, for the sake of lurkers and clarity:

1. Jesus said “taken” means judged.
“The flood came and took them all away. So shall the coming of the Son of Man be.” (Matt 24:39)

Not blessed. Not raptured.
Taken = Judged.
And who was left behind?
Noah.

2. Paul says the resurrection of the dead and the gathering of the elect happen at Christ’s return.
“The Lord Himself shall descend… the dead in Christ shall rise first… then we which are alive… shall be caught up together with them…” (1 Thess 4:16–17)

That perfectly matches:
“He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect…” (Matt 24:31)
Same event.
Same sequence.
No secret rapture. No disappearing act. No two comings of Christ.

3. The “mystery” Paul speaks of was hidden — not absent.
“I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.” (Matt 13:35)
Jesus literally says He’s revealing hidden things. That’s what a mystery is — not nonexistent, just not clearly understood until the appointed time.

4. The resurrection and transformation “in a twinkling of an eye” refers to the change — not to a secret vanishing.
“We shall all be changed — in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” (1 Cor 15:51–52)

That describes how fast our bodies are transformed — not how fast Jesus snatches us off the planet like a cosmic magician.

5. The idea of people being left behind but “it’s okay, they’ll have another chance” is nowhere in the words of Christ. That’s Hal Lindsey fiction, not Scripture.

In fact, Jesus says:
“As in the days of Noah… they knew not until the flood came and took them all away. So shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.”
No second chance. No post-rapture revival tour.

Scofield-Evangelicals contradict Christ at nearly every point:

Jesus says the wicked are taken — they say the righteous are.

Jesus says He returns once — they invent a return before His return.

Jesus gathers the elect at the trumpet — they say the elect are gone already.

Paul says the resurrection is at Christ’s coming — they say it’s before.

The early Church warned of this delusion — ^ and here it is.

Let’s call this what it really is:
A Disney-tier distortion of the Gospel, propped up by the Rockefeller's & Oxford, Zionist Scofield notes, Hollywood fantasy, and a total disregard for Jesus’ own words.

Jesus isn’t coming back twice to clean up your Scofieldian lies and theological wreckage.
He returns once — in glory, in power, at the last trumpet.
And if you’re not ready then, you don’t get a sequel.

This isn’t Left Behind.
It’s Left Out.
Forever.