IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[Scott Downey]

If you want proof of one harvest of the just, the righteous, it is found in the parable of the tares, which parable Christ even explained.
The gathering of both wicked and righteous occurs at the harvest.

If there were 2 gatherings of the righteous, separated by some time, such as a pre-trib rapture, then a gathering at His return, then Christ would have told us directly here.
The wicked are gathered by angels and taken away to destruction. The righteous inherit the kingdom of their Father, they remain with Christ at His second coming.

Matthew 13

The Parable of the Tares Explained​

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

 

[Scott Downey]

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares​

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Let them both grow together until the harvest, got it!
Say yes, Amen Lord Jesus! It is as you have said.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

We know that God's Removal Of His Body is before the man of sin, son of Perdition is 'revealed'.

You must have a mouse in your pocket and he's wrong according to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

There's no scriptures that are more true than 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 on this topic

 

[Fred J]

Is the rapture before the Great Tribulation?

Revelation 20:
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of GOD, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Therefore after the first resurrection, the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished, then happens the second resurrection?

Revelation 6:
9. And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the alter the souls of them that were slain for the word of GOD, for the testimony which they held (of Christ):
10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Apparently souls of the first resurrection, and were told to rest until their felowservants and brethren should be killed be fulfilled?

This clearly fits the parable of Jesus, where in the field and at the mill, one will be taken and the other will be left behind. (Also the ten virgins)

And there's another clear indication of a second resurrection after that's fulfilled, of these fellowservants and brethren who'd be killed.


On the other hand, If this is the first resurrection of those in Christ, dead or alive and remain, hence is also Christ's second coming in the cloud to bring them home.

Only the true church of Jesus Christ worldwide, Jew or Gentile Christians, can boldly be witnesses of Jesus Christ, and for the word of GOD (even unto death).

Apparently the true church did go through the Great Tribulation (which was shortened for them and the house of Israel).

They were there during the reign of anti-Christ and persecution on them happened worldwide, also by the world under the strong delusion of GOD. (once again the ages of darkness)

Why those in the first resurrection, lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, and not forever?

And we know after the beast and false prophet were cast alive into a lake of fire, whilst, satan was bound a thousand years in the bottomless pit.

To also conclude, the pre-tribulation rapture dogma and testimony is 'debunked'.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Apparently the true church did go through the Great Tribulation

The rapture is pre-wrath not pre-trib. God's faithful are NOT appointed unto wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) whether one believes it's the devil's wrath or the wrath of the Lord. NOT appointed unto wrath actually means: NOT appointed unto wrath

If you have made up your mind that you are going thru the great tribulation then have a good time and don't forget to send a post card!

Maybe the anti-christ will be selling selfies with people right as the guillotine is taking off their head

 

[Scott Downey]

Is the rapture before the Great Tribulation?

Revelation 20:
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of GOD, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Therefore after the first resurrection, the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished, then happens the second resurrection?

Revelation 6:
9. And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the alter the souls of them that were slain for the word of GOD, for the testimony which they held (of Christ):
10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Apparently souls of the first resurrection, and were told to rest until their felowservants and brethren should be killed be fulfilled?

This clearly fits the parable of Jesus, where in the field and at the mill, one will be taken and the other will be left behind. (Also the ten virgins)

And there's another clear indication of a second resurrection after that's fulfilled, of these fellowservants and brethren who'd be killed.


On the other hand, If this is the first resurrection of those in Christ, dead or alive and remain, hence is also Christ's second coming in the cloud to bring them home.

Only the true church of Jesus Christ worldwide, Jew or Gentile Christians, can boldly be witnesses of Jesus Christ, and for the word of GOD (even unto death).

Apparently the true church did go through the Great Tribulation (which was shortened for them and the house of Israel).

They were there during the reign of anti-Christ and persecution on them happened worldwide, also by the world under the strong delusion of GOD. (once again the ages of darkness)

Why those in the first resurrection, lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, and not forever?

And we know after the beast and false prophet were cast alive into a lake of fire, whilst, satan was bound a thousand years in the bottomless pit.

To also conclude, the pre-tribulation rapture dogma and testimony is 'debunked'.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 15, Christ is the first resurrection, and is the one mentioned in Rev 20

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

When you physically die, where do you think you go as a Christian?
Your life is hidden with Christ in God.
You go to be with Christ in heaven and you reign with Him there as an overcomer of this world.
You have a part in Christ's resurrection which is the first resurrection
1000 years time is just symbolic of a long but temporary time until the actual END where we get the new earth and new heaven..

Everyone who dies in the Lord before Christ's return is with Christ and Christ is raised.

Example that shows the Christ's resurrection is our own right now!
AND THAT YOU DIED
Colossians 3
New King James Version

1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

The entire first resurrection is Christ and you are in Christ, so then you died and are raised with Christ, and you are ruling with Him right now in heaven as an overcomer of this world. This is a spiritual resurrection for believers, not a physical resurrection.

Another example to ponder about these things, what the first resurrection which is Christ means.
It is a spiritual resurrection, not our physical resurrection yet, that comes later when Christ returns.
Rev 20 is about a spiritual resurrection, not a physical resurrection and it is in heaven, not on earth.

Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And stop reading the book of revelation as if it is linear time.

And why dispute the clear teaching of the parable of the tares?

 

[keithr]

Everyone who dies in the Lord before Christ's return is with Christ and Christ is raised.

Christians that die before Christ's return are dead (or "sleeping" as Jesus refers to it) - they are not immediately restored to life, nor taken to be with Jesus. As Paul explained, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (WEB):

(15) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.​

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

So the dead Christians are dead and still on the earth (they are not alive, living with Jesus in heaven), and they are not restored to life until just before the living Christians are changed in the "twinkling of an eye", and then the whole Church is raptured, taken up to meet Jesus in the earth's atmosphere, after which Jesus takes us to heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (WEB):

(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

(53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

(54) But when this perishable body will have become imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”​

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

they are not immediately restored to life

Soul sleep is false doctrine and not actually taught by the Lord.

Those living in cult city embrace and teach soul sleep and claim the Lord's teaching about the rich man and Lazarus was a made up fairy tale lie (claiming Jesus is ignorant of how things work AND He is a liar)

And they claim when the Apostle Paul said "to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8) he was not being led by the Holy Spirit in writing that so they claim he was lying.

"The dead in Christ will rise first" is referring to the physical bodies of believers who have passed away will be raised from physical death which is when their bodies will be gloried just like Jesus' physical body is a glorified body as does "We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed"

The gifts and callings of God are without repentance (Romans 11:29), and He created man in His Image (Genesis 1:27) meaning man is a 3 part being just like God is in that man is spirit, soul, and body (1 Thessalonians 5:23) so from God's perspective man is not fully resurrected until spirit soul and body are glorified which is how the faithful will be in the end with Him.

 

[Fred J]

If you want proof of one harvest of the just, the righteous, it is found in the parable of the tares, which parable Christ even explained.
The gathering of both wicked and righteous occurs at the harvest.

This parable is about the 'final judgement', where the servants(angels) are sent to bring in the harvest, bring to Christ's judgement, people of all nation kindred and tongue. (Matthew 25:31-46)(Revelation 20:11-15)

The first resurrection of the just. the righteous, according to 1 Thessalonians 4:16&17/Revelation 20:4, there's no 'separation event' by Jesus Christ mentioned.

Revelation 20:
6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of GOD and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


Not all the just or righteous, made it through the first resurrection, referring to the parable of the ten virgins(ready & not ready bride at His return). Also the parable about, one will be taken while the other will be left behind.

Revelation 20:
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Meaning, after the first resurrection there will be no more resurrection of the dead until the thousand years were finished.

Revelation 6:
11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Apparently, there's a 'second resurrection' of the just or righteous dead, for the left behind virgins in Christ who will die for their faith in fulfillment, after the thousand years were finished.

Note the next verse where the sixth seal is opened, marking, after the first resurrection, next the great day of GOD's wrath is come on the ungodly(Revelation 6:17).

Meaning, the Great Tribulation has not completely come to pass, and in the 'midst of it' the first resurrection already taken place. As the next phase, the world is experiencing GOD's wrath, calamities that has never taken place before.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[keithr]

And they claim when the Apostle Paul said "to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8) he was not being led by the Holy Spirit in writing that so they claim he was lying.

You are misquoting the Bible. There is no English translation of the Bible that says "is to be present with the Lord". 2 Corinthians 5:8 (WEB):

(8) We are courageous, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.​

Paul is saying that we are looking forward to being at home with our Lord Jesus, after we are resurrected and God gives us a new spiritual body, and although we don't desire to die we are courageous and desire to gain our eternal life of living with Jesus. He is not saying that instantly after dying we are at home with Jesus. That is contrary to his other teachings. Remember Jesus promised that he was going to prepare a home for us and that he would at a later time return for us and take us to our new homes in heaven.

John 14:2-3 (WEB):

(2) In my Father’s house are many homes. If it weren’t so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you.​

(3) If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also.​

We will not "be present with the Lord" until he comes and collects us (the rapture). 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 (WEB):

(22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

(23) But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ’s, at his coming.​

"The dead in Christ will rise first" is referring to the physical bodies of believers who have passed away will be raised from physical death which is when their bodies will be gloried just like Jesus' physical body is a glorified body as does "We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed"

We will not be resurrected with a physical body - 1 Corinthians 15:38 (WEB):

(38) But God gives it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.​

1 Corinthians 15:44 (ISV):

(44) It is planted a physical body but is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.​

1 John 3:2 (ISV):

(2) Dear friends, we are now God's children, but what we will be like has not been revealed yet. We know that when the Messiah is revealed, we will be like him, because we will see him as he is.​

 

[Scott Downey]

You are misquoting the Bible. There is no English translation of the Bible that says "is to be present with the Lord". 2 Corinthians 5:8 (WEB):

(8) We are courageous, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.​

Paul is saying that we are looking forward to being at home with our Lord Jesus, after we are resurrected and God gives us a new spiritual body, and although we don't desire to die we are courageous and desire to gain our eternal life of living with Jesus. He is not saying that instantly after dying we are at home with Jesus. That is contrary to his other teachings. Remember Jesus promised that he was going to prepare a home for us and that he would at a later time return for us and take us to our new homes in heaven.

John 14:2-3 (WEB):

(2) In my Father’s house are many homes. If it weren’t so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you.​

(3) If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also.​

We will not "be present with the Lord" until he comes and collects us (the rapture). 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 (WEB):

(22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

(23) But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ’s, at his coming.​

We will not be resurrected with a physical body - 1 Corinthians 15:38 (WEB):

(38) But God gives it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.​

1 Corinthians 15:44 (ISV):

(44) It is planted a physical body but is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.​

1 John 3:2 (ISV):

(2) Dear friends, we are now God's children, but what we will be like has not been revealed yet. We know that when the Messiah is revealed, we will be like him, because we will see him as he is.​

Present with the Lord is in several versions
KJ21
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
ASV
we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.
AMP
we are [as I was saying] of good courage and confident hope, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
AMPC
[Yes] we have confident and hopeful courage and are pleased rather to be away from home out of the body and be at home with the Lord.
BRG
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


DARBY
we are confident, I say, and pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.
DLNT
yet we are confident and prefer rather to get-away-from-home, out of the body, and to get-at-home with the Lord.
DRA
But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
ERV
So I say that we have confidence. And we really want to be away from this body and be at home with the Lord.
EASY
We are brave because we trust God. We would like to go away from our body here on earth. Then we would go to be at home with the Lord. And that would be better!
EHV
But we are confident and would much prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
ESV
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
ESVUK
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
EXB
So I say that we ·have courage [or are confident]. We really ·want [would prefer] to be ·away [absent; or exiled] from this body and be at home with the Lord.
GNV
Nevertheless, we are bold, and love rather to remove out of the body, and to dwell with the Lord.
GW
We are confident and prefer to live away from this body and to live with the Lord.
GNT
We are full of courage and would much prefer to leave our home in the body and be at home with the Lord.
HCSB
and we are confident and satisfied to be out of the body and at home with the Lord.
ICB
So I say that we have courage. And we really want to be away from this body and be at home with the Lord.
ISV
We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from this body and to live with the Lord.
PHILLIPS
Now the power that has planned this experience for us is God, and he has given us his Spirit as a guarantee of its truth. This makes us confident, whatever happens. We realise that being “at home” in the body means that to some extent we are “away” from the Lord, for we have to live by trusting him without seeing him. We are so sure of this that we would really rather be “away” from the body (in death) and be “at home” with the Lord.
JUB
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
KJV
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
AKJV
we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
LSB
we are of good courage and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
LEB
so we are confident and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
TLB
And we are not afraid but are quite content to die, for then we will be at home with the Lord.
MSG
That’s why we live with such good cheer. You won’t see us drooping our heads or dragging our feet! Cramped conditions here don’t get us down. They only remind us of the spacious living conditions ahead. It’s what we trust in but don’t yet see that keeps us going. Do you suppose a few ruts in the road or rocks in the path are going to stop us? When the time comes, we’ll be plenty ready to exchange exile for homecoming.
MEV
Instead, I say that we are confident and willing to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
MOUNCE
Thus we are confident and would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
NOG
We are confident and prefer to live away from this body and to live with the Lord.
NABRE
Yet we are courageous, and we would rather leave the body and go home to the Lord.
NASB
but we are of good courage and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.


NKJV
We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

 

[Scott Downey]

The idea is when as Christians, we leave the body as in we die, we go to be with the Lord in heaven

'We' has to do our new creation spirits, who are joined to the Lord as one spirit with Him.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 6:16-18 - New King James Version

Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins...

www.biblegateway.com

1 Corinthians 6:16-18
New King James Version
16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”
17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 5 - New King James Version

Assurance of the Resurrection - For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having...

www.biblegateway.com

2 Corinthians 5
New King James Version

1 For we know that if our earthly [a]house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as [c]a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

 

[Scott Downey]

Sometimes I like to read the expanded bible.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 5 - Expanded Bible

[For] We know that ·when [if] our ·body [earthly house]—the tent we live in here on earth—is destroyed, ·God will have a house for us [we have a building from God]. It will not be made by human hands, but will be an eternal home ·in heaven [or in the heavens]. But now we ·groan [sigh] in this...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[rebuilder 454]

This parable is about the 'final judgement', where the servants(angels) are sent to bring in the harvest, bring to Christ's judgement, people of all nation kindred and tongue. (Matthew 25:31-46)(Revelation 20:11-15)

The first resurrection of the just. the righteous, according to 1 Thessalonians 4:16&17/Revelation 20:4, there's no 'separation event' by Jesus Christ mentioned.

Revelation 20:
6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of GOD and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


Not all the just or righteous, made it through the first resurrection, referring to the parable of the ten virgins(ready & not ready bride at His return). Also the parable about, one will be taken while the other will be left behind.

Revelation 20:
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Meaning, after the first resurrection there will be no more resurrection of the dead until the thousand years were finished.

Revelation 6:
11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Apparently, there's a 'second resurrection' of the just or righteous dead, for the left behind virgins in Christ who will die for their faith in fulfillment, after the thousand years were finished.

Note the next verse where the sixth seal is opened, marking, after the first resurrection, next the great day of GOD's wrath is come on the ungodly(Revelation 6:17).

Meaning, the Great Tribulation has not completely come to pass, and in the 'midst of it' the first resurrection already taken place. As the next phase, the world is experiencing GOD's wrath, calamities that has never taken place before.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

QUOTE:
"Apparently, there's a 'second resurrection' of the just or righteous dead, for the left behind virgins in Christ who will die for their faith in fulfillment, after the thousand years were finished."
The left behind ones are seen in heaven right away in the 7 yr gt.
They came out of the gt. and are in heaven.
It is they that mark "the time of the Gentiles completed," close to the start of the 7 yr gt.

It is said in Revelation, that the martyrs are kept under the altar in heaven....until their number is fulfilled.
Now, at the innumerable number martyrs, at the start of the gt, we see those left behind, martyrs in the general population of heaven.
( no longer confined to under the altar)
Millions of them.
Innumerable number.
It is obviously a second resurrection after the pretrib rapture.

The rapture is a dynamic all by itself.
Those beheaded by the AC at the beginning of the gt, are the believers that were carnal (plus those that mock his coming..kinda like postribbers), left behind ones, and end up in heaven a few days/ months later with scars around their necks.
So the first resurrection is vast.
1 Jesus and those in paradise resurrected.
2. The rapture with alive and resurrected dead in Christ.
3. those beheaded in the gt.
4 the 144k of Rev 14
5 the Jewish main harvest of rev14:14

Note that to be a genuine postribber, most all of that gets thrown down and trampled.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

You are misquoting the Bible. There is no English translation of the Bible that says "is to be present with the Lord". 2 Corinthians 5:8 (WEB):

That's what Paul is talking about if you can understand the context of what He is saying.

He's saying when he leaves his body, he will be with the Lord showing that soul sleep is false doctrine.

You must think the teaching Jesus gave about the rich man and Lazarus is a lie and Jesus was just making up stories.
Jesus demonstrated that there no soul sleep as both men were alive, awake, and very aware of what was going on.

Jesus wouldn't lie to us, would he?

Paul is saying that we are looking forward to being at home with our Lord Jesus, after we are resurrected

Now you are adding to the scriptures something it does not say.

We will not be resurrected with a physical body

Actually we will be because we are joint heirs with Christ Jesus and we get what He got which is our physical bodies resurrected and glorified and untouchable by death just like the Lord Jesus has right now.

You are misunderstanding the point the scripture makes about a spiritual body

A spiritual body for man is a physical body that has been glorified, like Jesus has.

Jesus has a spiritual body right now seats at the Right Hand of the Father which is His same physical Body that has been glorified and He still has the scars in His hands and in His side.

 

[Fred J]

It is obviously a second resurrection after the pretrib rapture.

There's no pretrib rapture, but midtrib rapture which is the first resurrection.

Anti-Christ's appearance in the world marks the beginning of the Great Tribulation.

During his reign, the church were persecuted for the testimony of Christ and the word of GOD. Ones who did not worship the beast nor his image, nor received his mark in their forehead or hands. These are ones who are dead or alive and remain, were included in the first resurrection, together with those who are dead in Christ since the beginning.

Since from the beginning of Christ till His death and resurrection, He's alone the firstfruit of resurrection. And none of the Apostles to the church after Him have been resurrected, until on the first resurrection.

So, how can you testify about pretrib rapture, when there's no such thing?

The rapture is a dynamic all by itself.
Those beheaded by the AC at the beginning of the gt, are the believers that were carnal (plus those that mock his coming..kinda like postribbers), left behind ones, and end up in heaven a few days/ months later with scars around their necks.

The above is just your spin of things that are not tangible to the scripture.

There's no such testament as the unjust or unrighteous left behind, carnal and mock the Lord's return, were persecuted by anti-Christ.

Note that to be a genuine postribber, most all of that gets thrown down and trampled.

Not all them are killed

 

[Fred J]

He's saying when he leaves his body, he will be with the Lord showing that soul sleep is false doctrine.

2 Corinthians 5:
8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Apostle Paul clearly said, 'and willing rather', and not, 'when he leaves his body, he will be', total contradiction that will conflict with all scripture and it's sound doctrine.

Please stop 'twisting' the scripture and it's teaching, or 'parroting' someone else 'twisted' version.

In other words and in a figure of speech Paul's just saying, He's willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord instantly.

Absolutely will not conflict with the first resurrection, when only then the dead in Christ, including Apostle Paul, shall rise from their sleep/grave. And those who are alive and remain, ....................................

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Please stop 'twisting' the scripture

You should see what Jesus said about people being conscience and aware when He taught on Lazarus and the rich man.

Jesus was not lying and He was teaching about actual people.

Your assessment had Jesus telling us lies!

Paul's just saying, He's willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord instantly.

Meaning when Paul leaves his body he will be with the Lord awake and aware and won't be napping!

 

[Fred J]

You should see what Jesus said about people being conscience and aware when He taught on Lazarus and the rich man.

Jesus was not lying and He was teaching about actual people.

Your assessment had Jesus telling us lies!

Am not on this matter and never made assessment, why lie?

Based on this parable, to you it's a true event, so relate it with Paul's saying?

Meaning when Paul leaves his body he will be with the Lord awake and aware and won't be napping!

Seriously, you're having fun with your 'twisted' version, suit yourself.

There are Christians who say, 'I wish I died and gone to Heaven.'

So i get it, according to your denomination, once they die they're going to Heaven.

Readers, according to small boy Johnson, Paul had died and is with the Lord in Heaven until today.

Therefore since the Lord is the firstfruit of the resurrection, Paul became the 'secondfruit'.

To conclude, Paul is not included in the first resurrection of those dead in Christ who then only shall rise.

PS Once Johnson dies he too leaves his body, and he'll be with the Lord in Heaven instantly.

Am out of this 'heresy' for now, no thank you.

 

[keithr]

Present with the Lord is in several versions
KJ21
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Being present with the Lord is a different meaning from being "absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord", which implies that being dead is to be alive and with Jesus. "Is" to be has a different meaning from "and" to be. The Greek word is kai, which means 'and, also, even, indeed, but'; it does not mean "is".