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IS there a biblical rebuttal to the bogus dr. Laura letter floating around on the net

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by jamesrage, May 21, 2007.

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  1. May 21, 2007 #1
    jamesrage

    jamesrage New Member

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    IS there a biblical rebuttal to the bogus Dr. Laura letter floating around on the net?Liberals and fake Christians usually use this as some sort of rebuttal anytime someone states homosexuality is a sin.For those who do not know who Dr. Laura is,She has a common sense radio advice call-in talk show hostess.(I apologize in advance if this topic has already been done before and or if is in the wrong forum section).
    Dear Dr. Laura: Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. Ihave learned a great deal from your radio show, and I try to share thatknowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend thehomosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need someadvise from you, however, regarding some of the specific Bible laws and howto follow them.a)When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates apleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. Theyclaim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?[​IMG]I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?She's 18 and starting University. Will the slave buyer continue to pay forher education by law ?c)I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in herperiod of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do Itell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.d)Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female,provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mineclaims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify?......Why can't I own Canadians?e)I have a neighbor who insists on working on theSabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morallyobligated to kill him myself, or should this be a neighborhood improvementproject ?f)A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is anabomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. Idon't agree. Can you settle this?g)Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have adefect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does myvision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Would contactlenses help ?h)Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair aroundtheir temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. Howshould they die?i)I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes meunclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?j)My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two differentcrops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of twodifferent kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curseand blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the troubleof getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn'twe just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do withpeople who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confidentyou canhelp. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal andunchanging.Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.
     
  2. May 21, 2007 #2
    HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    The short answer is to know the difference between laws(Commandments), ordinances(precepts), and statutes:II Kings 17:34Unto this day they do after the former manners: they fear not the LORD, neither do they after their statutes, or after their ordinances, or after the law and commandment which the LORD commanded the children of Jacob, whom he named Israel;Nehemiah 9:14And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:Obviously, it'd be sacreligious to burn any sort of offering given that Christ was our offering for one and all time:Hebrews 7:27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.Furthermore, these people remain ignorant of what Christ said:Matthew 5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.This counters just about everything said above in itself. The Law and therefore the Commandments still hold; hence the reason Jesus elaborated on them in Matthew 15. That hasn't changed and this still holds for capital punishment, homosexuality, and so on. The wage is death in the spiritual sense, because the people that ignore the gift of Jesus continue to wallow around in the mud for lack of a better explanation.From there, we get into the individual laws which often have a string to them. For example, it talks about proper land usage in Leviticus if I recall correctly. This event was speaking to those that entered into the Promised Land and the surrounding context affirms that.As for the health food laws, look at the context:Leviticus 11:10And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:I've pointed out the part people skip right over. When the Bible says don't eat something, it's for good reason. However, it's an abomination to ourselves because it only harms us in the end. This has nothing to do with going to hell in a handbasket. This is what Christ was for because they became slave to the Law.Hosea 6:6For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.The NT attests to this quite strongly:Colossians 2:14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;(It doesn't say law it clearly says ordinances!)Hebrews 9 really should be read in it's entirety as well because it contains a reply to people who say what was said in that letter above.
     
  3. May 22, 2007 #3
    Bamp;#39;midbar

    Bamp;#39;midbar New Member

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    The “letter” is clearly trying to be humorous, and not a serious attempt at debate. So, perhaps answer in kind if you like.
    a)When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates apleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. Theyclaim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
    No, that leaves you open to an “eye for an eye” in response. Your best course of action is to offer your neighbor a nice porterhouse steak. And so on. On a pseudo serious note, there is a genuine biblical question that caught my eye in the letter.
    e)I have a neighbor who insists on working on theSabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morallyobligated to kill him myself, or should this be a neighborhood improvementproject ?
    Please refer to the case record of the man found gathering wood on the Sabbath. Numbers 15:35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp."
     
  4. May 22, 2007 #4
    Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I agree with B' that this was an attempt at humor but the fact remains as Denver pointed out
     
  5. May 23, 2007 #5
    jamesrage

    jamesrage New Member

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    The part about the not offering animal sacrifices and not stoning people to death for sins I understand,because we are supposed to confess our sins and repent.There is no commandment to own slaves and have heard some say that certain scriptures ban slavery(Exodus 21:16,Deuteronomy 24:7,Deuteronomy 23:15-16,)or that servant does not always equal slave .Some say that dietary laws have changed back and fourth(Genesis 9:3,Leviticus 11) and that certain verses in the new testament directly change the old (1 Timothy 4:4,Acts 11:6-9)
     
  6. Jun 12, 2007 #6
    antonio

    antonio New Member

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    Dear James, if you want "Biblical", you could stone her. [​IMG] I'm new here so I'm not clear what someone means by biblical. You could ask yourself what would Jesus do in light of his command to Love God and love everyone in the world, even your enemies.antonio
     
  7. Jun 12, 2007 #7
    betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    the word was written in a time when all this was the norm, God had to give rules to regulate it and His rules made sure slaves were not ill treated... for example if you took a woman slave for sexual purposes, you either had to marry her or set her free... there were reasons for putting others to death and it gave the ramifications for those who killed outside those perameters. Yes before Christ blood sacrifice was necessary.. "for without the shedding of blood there is no remittance of sin.." God gave men a day of rest in a time when it was unheard of... only the wealthy were able to have any relief from labor, at the time of the writing of the law God seemed very liberal... but his Word still holds so much truth and wisdom for us in our everyday lives..what other document of the era can say so?
     
  8. Jun 13, 2007 #8
    antonio

    antonio New Member

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    Interestingly, I noticed that several posts said,"The short answer is to know the difference between laws(Commandments), ordinances(precepts), and statutes:
     
  9. Jun 13, 2007 #9
    HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    How does one know the difference and who has decided or decides what the difference is?
    A good place to start is at the verses I listed in that same post. The Bible dictates what they are and they are clearly defined when one takes the time to look unlike the person who originally wrote this letter. It's based in ignorance and in ignorance it will probably remain.
     
  10. Jun 13, 2007 #10
    antonio

    antonio New Member

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    Dear Denver--I read all the verses you quote. I even read the entirety of Leviticus. Frankly, I find nothing, except in in Hosea that even arguably suggests that any of the commands and judgements of God as set forth in the OT no longer apply. I know you said I should start there --1. Is there some language I am missing. btw, it doesn't help for someone to "Interpret" the language. I believe that what God meant in what He wanted written down is available to all who read it.2.Seems to me The OT or Jesus is the last word on the subject. Where does it say the law has either changed, no longer applies, doesn't mean what it says, has been condensed to only some of the law, etc.?thank you for your patience.antonio
     
  11. Jun 13, 2007 #11
    HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    The LAW hasn't changed. I've never made that statement and never will because I know better. Documentation:Matthew 5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. That is where the documented (see above) difference of laws, statutes, and ordinances comes into play. As the Apostle Paul tells us: Colossians 2:14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; We don't sacrifice animals anymore because Christ removed that ordinance. It would be sacreligious to do so because you'd be saying Christ doesn't count. Documentation: Hebrews 9:12-14Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Since you have read Leviticus and studied it, you'll be familiar with some of the ordinances for things such as handling the land when the Israelites entered into Canaan. Obviously that would not apply to us. People like the above, however, like to say (in ignorance) that the ordinance is meant for land at one time and all. Another example would be the shaving of the head which clearly refers to Canaanite practices for their priests. Things like this would not apply to us so you have to understand both the context - which is gotten by reading each in context and the fact that Christ did away with the old ordinances of animal sacrifice. The law has not changed.
     
  12. Jun 14, 2007 #12
    Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    Wow. That Dr. Laura person is a real jerk. And thanks Denver for clearing some things up for me.
     
  13. Jun 14, 2007 #13
    antonio

    antonio New Member

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    We don't sacrifice animals anymore because Christ removed that ordinance. It would be sacreligious to do so because you'd be saying Christ doesn't count.
    Could you tell me where is it that Christ says He removed that ordinance--and by the way, where is animal sacrifce called an ordinace. I'm looking for these things but i'm not finding them.
    Since you have read Leviticus and studied it, you'll be familiar with some of the ordinances for things such as handling the land when the Israelites entered into Canaan. Obviously that would not apply to us. People like the above, however, like to say (in ignorance) that the ordinance is meant for land at one time and all. Another example would be the shaving of the head which clearly refers to Canaanite practices for their priests. Things like this would not apply to us so you have to understand both the context - which is gotten by reading each in context and the fact that Christ did away with the old ordinances of animal sacrifice.
    I'm not sure I'm looking at the verses your referring to. But the ones I found are not obvious to me in their language as no longer applying. Would you be kind enough to give me the verse your referring to? I certainly recognize that if the law applied to a particular situation, it would not apply except in that situation. However, I could find very little law in Leviticus that applied to a unique and limited situation. And if as you say the Law hasn't changed, then it still applies. I must be confused.
     
  14. Jun 14, 2007 #14
    HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Could you tell me where is it that Christ says He removed that ordinance--and by the way, where is animal sacrifce called an ordinace. I'm looking for these things but i'm not finding them.
    Colossians 2:14-23Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using: ) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.I am sorry, but I don't know of any other verses that say it any plainer and any better than these two. Obviously, sacrificing of animals is over and done with for us.As to your other question:Leviticus 19:23-25 - The land. The subject is the Israelites and it refers to the promised land that they are coming into. Obviously this does not apply to subsequent generations as we are not coming into the land there with them.Leviticus 19:27 - The surrounding context - that of enchantment of v. 26 and cuttings for the dead of v. 28 obvious refer to religious practices.
     
  15. Jun 15, 2007 #15
    antonio

    antonio New Member

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    Dear Denver, My question was where was it that Christ says anything about removing, ending, amending any ordinance or law or command of God. You didn't respond to my question.also, I looked up the word ordinance. it is also a law and command of God. So I'm not clear, for the purpose of this discussion about commands of God are still applicable, it makes any differnece whether they are called ordinance or laws or commandments. If it does make a difference, could you also point out where GOD says it does.thank youantonio
    Quote:Could you tell me where is it that Christ says He removed that ordinance--and by the way, where is animal sacrifce called an ordinace. I'm looking for these things but i'm not finding them. Colossians 2:14-23Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us
     
  16. Jun 15, 2007 #16
    antonio

    antonio New Member

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    Dear Denver--I have been reading and I have found several sources that say: The Bible makes no distinction between Moral laws and Ordinances. Does God/Jesus make such a distinction?Also, some writers( my research has been brief) say all the laws, ordinances, commandments etc were what God said to the Hebrews, not to anyone else. They say none of those "laws" are applicable to gentiles or non jews but only if your a christian, and where Jesus is speaking to gentiles, is there any applicable law.Can you answer these questions? I hope so.thank youantonio
     
  17. Jun 15, 2007 #17
    Christina

    Christina New Member

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    AntonioThe animal sacrifices were for the Jews only, never the Gentiles these sacrifices were a prelude, a type if you will of the Lamb to come(Jesus)the ultimate sacrifice. When Christ was crucified(sacrificed) it fulfilled the reason for sacrifice. Thus sacrifice is no longer needed as Christ died for all sins. It is only the Law God came NOT to change. He says he came not to change one iota of the Law so to say the Law is not applicable is wrong
     
  18. Jun 16, 2007 #18
    antonio

    antonio New Member

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    Dear Kriss--I am very new to this. I am really a buddhist(zen) but now I am trying to figure christianity out. My belief is very limited but I do believe in Jesus as God. You wrote
    Antonio The animal sacrifices were for the Jews only, never the Gentiles these sacrifices were a prelude, a type if you will of the Lamb to come(Jesus)the ultimate sacrifice. When Christ was crucified(sacrificed) it fulfilled the reason for sacrifice. Thus sacrifice is no longer needed as Christ died for all sins. It is only the Law God came NOT to change. He says he came not to change one iota of the Law so to say the Law is not applicable is wrong
    I have some questions about what you wrote:1, Did Jesus ever say he was here to replace animal sacrifice?2. If animal sacrifice was for the Jews only, wasn't all the other of God's commands also only for the Jews? I can't find in the OT where God or Moses say the laws, (commands, ordinances, laws) were given to anyone other than the Jews.3. When Jesus said he came not to change one iota of the law, wasn't he talking to the Jews? Would gentiles have had any understanding of what he was saying about "the Law"?thank you for you'r helpantonio
     
  19. Jun 16, 2007 #19
    Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (antonio;11856)
    Dear Kriss--I am very new to this. I am really a buddhist(zen) but now I am trying to figure christianity out. My belief is very limited but I do believe in Jesus as God. You wrote I have some questions about what you wrote:1, Did Jesus ever say he was here to replace animal sacrifice?2. If animal sacrifice was for the Jews only, wasn't all the other of God's commands also only for the Jews? I can't find in the OT where God or Moses say the laws, (commands, ordinances, laws) were given to anyone other than the Jews.3. When Jesus said he came not to change one iota of the law, wasn't he talking to the Jews? Would gentiles have had any understanding of what he was saying about "the Law"?thank you for you'r helpantonio
    AntonioFirst you must understand the reason behind Jesus himself.Jesus was sent by God to the all the world (and people) to be punished(by death)for all sin in the world. Both past and present sins. Thus when we accept this and ask for forgiveness of our sins we ask in the name of Christ because it was he who paid the price for our sins.With this thought in mind God went about teaching us from the beginning of what was to be his plan. He choose a people to use as an example to world the Hebrews (Jews). this is why they are known as Gods chosen people. He went about teaching this tribe of people much the way a parent would start teaching a baby.When they sinned they had to follow certain rules to be forgiven for displeasing God.One of these ways was by a blood sacrifice. This severed to show them that sin was not without pain and sacraficies and also served to be a type of what would later become true Lamb of God(Jesus.) Sacrificing animals(remember only a few animals could be used) didn't really remove the sins but rather pushed them aside till Christ would be crucified for them. However the Jews were not aware of this fact a the time. You are correct that, God gave the Laws,ordinances ext. to the Jews,but over time peoples and tribes that were not Hebrews(Jews) infiltrated the Jews many with pagan believes. Over time just as today many traditions of men crept into the priesthood of the Jews,sin increased. It had always been Gods plan to open salvation to the world the Jews are just where he started. Christ came to do just that open salvation to all mankind known in the bible as Gentiles. Christ himself told us he came not to change the Laws. He was the end of sacrifice because he died for all the past and present sins so animal sacrifice was no longer necessary as what would be the point? Now there were a percentage of the Jewish priest hood who had become corrupt and were making pretty good money and did not appreciate a trouble maker like Christ telling the people they no longer needed to follow the ordinances and rules the priest had set up. So would not accept that Christ was their promised messiah. These priest and the people that listened to them never gave up their Jewish ways and these are the Jews of today that still reconize only the old testament. These are still made up of good and bad Jews.(often called figs)After Christs death the Apostles(who were Jews) went about spreading Christs teachings to the world. Thus they became known as Christians and you have the split between Christian and Jews. We both worship the same God we both accept our beliefs as coming from the same beginnings. One branch progressed(Christians) one did not,(Jews) In the end they will be grafted together. This is of course just a quick outline without a lot of details I would suggest you first read the new Testament and get an understanding of who Christ was what he taught, and then go back to the old testament and it may be easier for you to understand.Hope this helps you to have some understanding.
     
  20. Jun 16, 2007 #20
    antonio

    antonio New Member

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    dear kriss--I have read the New Testament. It is not easy reading and it's not always clear but I haven't found where Jesus said he came to replace animal sacrifice. Did he? I also don't find where Jesus says the laws of the OT are no longer applicable. In fact, He says he didn't come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also, I recall one verse where he says that unless every command of the Law is kept, one can't get into heaven. Is every law and command of the OT still applicable? Could you just answer these questions please. thank you for taking the time to explain things to me. antonio
     
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