Is Water Baptism Necessary for Salvation ?

[FHII]

If you are saying he didn't need it, I agree. He was baptized into Christ.... No need for symbolism.

the problem i have with separating Baptism from salvation, besides my belief that it is a sacrament, is that it was synonomous with becoming a Christian throughout the entire Church until the more radical Reformers decided it was optional. claiming that baptism was unnecessary before the Reformation was akin to saying that having relationship with Christ is not really necessary, today. it also is a very convient way for dismissing the authority of the Church

I have been thinking about this particular post for a couple of days. It's interesting that it was synomous with becoming a Christian throughout the entire [Catholic] church. That's true. And it may be a shock to some of you, but I don't have a problem with that. The problem I do have is that it was not necessary in the days of the Apostles. It was done, but not for every Christian. I imagine it's a very wonderful and moving experience (I haven't had a water baptism myself), and I don't have a problem with it. Neither does the Bible.

It may also come as a shock to some of you, but I am real big on the authority of Church. Not so much Church, but to a man of God. I'm a strong believer in leadership. So if a Church leader says, "Ok, we are going to have a water baptism!" I'm all for it. I'd do it. But if a Church leader (Priest, minister, Apostle, Pope... whomever is in charge of your Church) says it must be done or you are not a Christian, I gotta question that.

But a real Church ain't going to do that. A real Church baptizes with the Word. If they offer the symbolism of water baptism.... I can and would go along with it.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If you are saying he didn't need it, I agree. He was baptized into Christ.... No need for symbolism.

The problem I do have is that it was not necessary in the days of the Apostles. It was done, but not for every Christian. I imagine it's a very wonderful and moving experience (I haven't had a water baptism myself), and I don't have a problem with it. Neither does the Bible.

It may also come as a shock to some of you, but I am real big on the authority of Church.

1)The thief was not an example of NT salvation.


2)The apostles lived partly under the OT and NT law.

In Luke's account of the great commission, Lk 24:47, Luke recorded Christ saying "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

So the preaching of the gospel would begin at Jerusalem. In Acts 2 Peter and the other apostles were in Jerusalem where Peter preached repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins....just as the Lord had said in Lk 24:47, So in Acts 2 we have the first recorded gospel sermon and where the gospel began and where water baptism in the name of the Lord for remisson of sins took effect. So from Acts 2 onward, I read nowhere of "unbaptized Christians". In the great commission, human adminstered water baptism was how disciples were made, Matt 28:19,20.

Furthermore, after Jews were water baptized and became Christians in Acts 2, later the Gentiles were water baptized and became Christians also, Acts 10. Then in Acts 15:11 Peter says "But we believe that we (Jews) shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they (Gentiles)"

Peter is simply saying Jews and Gentiles are all saved the same way. Everyone that will be saved on judgment day who lived under Christ's NT law will be saved in the same way. One person will not be saved in a different way from another, that is, one will not be saved by faith only, while another saved by water baptism, another saved by saying a "sinner's prayer" while another saved by some random choice God supposedly made before the world began. Again, all that will be saved on judgment day that lived under Christ's NT law will be saved the same way. And going through the conversions in the book of Acts beginning with the conversion of the Jews in Acts 2, water baptism was that "like manner" way people were saved under the NT law in all those conversions in Acts.

3) Christ's church gets its authority from God's word. So Christ's church gets its authority to water baptize in the name of the Lord for remission of sins from God's word, Acts 2:38.

 

[FHII]

Ahh... The carnal mind! I can't bother with you Ernest T. Bass.... I have no need for symbolism.... I got the real thing!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ahh... The carnal mind! I can't bother with you Ernest T. Bass.... I have no need for symbolism.... I got the real thing!

I do not get where you get the idea that water baptism is just symbolic and nothing more. When Mk 16:16, Acts 2:38, and many other verses speak of baptism as the means by which God saves....."baptism doth also now save us"


In all the conversion in Acts from Acts 2 onward water baptism was the like manner way all were saved.

 

[FHII]

I got it from you and for once you were right. Water baptism is nothing more than a symbolic representation of a baptism into the Word (the teaching) of Jesus. Likewise, eating bread and wine is only symbolic of being partakers of his body and blood.

I appreciate you understand the truth of that.... Don't back down.... Don't be like a dog turning back to it's vomit. You discovered a great truth in that water baptism is only a symbol for something greater. Be glad and rejoice in the Truth.

 

[Poppin]

1 Jn 1:7 the purpose of the continued walking is to have a continued cleansing of all sin. Cleansing away of all sins has everything to do with being a Christian and saved. No uncleansed sins will enter heaven.

Eph 1:4; 2 Pet 3:4 a Christian is holy, without spot, without blame. How can a Christian who occasionally sins ever be without spot, without blame?
By the continued washing away of ALL sin by the blood of Christ. If a Christian quits walking in the light, then Christ blood no longer cleanses away all sin and he then has spot and blame and has fallen away. Again, not one single, solitary sin will enter into heaven.

And none of this applies to the sinner who has not been buried with Christ in baptism, and raised with Him in His resurrection, imo.
God is not man that He should fail. I do not believe that if someone had not time nor ability to be baptized before going to be with the Lord this nullifies their salvation. But even for we who wish to say baptism is an outward show of our faith (obedience) - which the Bible says nowhere, btw...then why the delay or downgrading of it. it is right there in the Great Commission.
The Spirit baptizes us into Christ`s death and raises us into new life - so in this sense only is it Holy Ghost Baptism (not the second blessing doctrine that methodism and pentecostalism teach).
i am not one who believes Baptism of the Holy Ghost, as they say (per Acts) nullifies water baptism. I mean no offense, i am merely stating my beliefs. i am a cessationist and the overwhelming by the Power from on High the disciples experienced was a one time events )though i was performed by God few more times, most importantly when the Spirit fell on the gentiles for the first time)
If baptism, as some say, is only getting wet, who do we do it at all. if, as some say, Holy Ghost Baptism replaced water baptism - i hope those do not baptize with water, for we are told:

Ephesians 4
Unity in the Body
4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all

i do believe water baptism is the one baptism, and that the Spirit is one who does the baptizing. :)
God Bless you all!
Poppin

 

[FHII]

Good words Poppin.

Small thing, but I saw that you enjoyed and were happy to be going to Church. Wish more folks felt the same way.... For me it is the high light of my week.

 

[Poppin]

Good words Poppin.

Small thing, but I saw that you enjoyed and were happy to be going to Church. Wish more folks felt the same way.... For me it is the high light of my week.

Thank you FHII! God bless you!
yes, it took many years or trial and error, and many years of loneliness (some despairing), but i finally found my place. I love my church; i love the Lord`s church...i believe He has many people in many cities (churches). Going to church is the highltight of my week.
God bless you! grace upon grace and mercy overflowing.
Poppin.

 

[FHII]

Wow... That encourages me Poppin. I pray that your pastor is preaching the Truth and you grow in the Lord.

 

[Poppin]

Wow... That encourages me Poppin. I pray that your pastor is preaching the Truth and you grow in the Lord.

Amen.
I am in my 3rd year at my church and i couldn`t be happier, more at peace and so well fed!!
Yes, my pastor preaches truth, for he preaches from the Bible - using a lectionary system whereby an OT passage; a Gospel passage and a NT epistle lesson is included in the teaching for that day. it is settled each year in advance, and so excludes the possibility that he can wander off into personal stories or jokes or any of that. The Word speaks. the pastor carefully crafts his sermon from the passages he is given, distinguishing Law and Gospel.
He preaches Law....then Gospel. we see Jesus in every chapter of both Testaments. He is There!
by the time i hear the Gospel though, i am ready. WHEW!
for the Law does its work and show me how far i fall short. and that is what it was added for - because of transgressions and to show us how sinful we really are! it was added because of transgressions, BUT!

THE GOOD NEWS.....

UNTIL John! when The One about whom it all represented (types ans shadows) came and fulfilled it. What a Glorious and Wise God we have. That the Son would come from Glory to become a man, made like unto his brothers. that he might be a faithful kinsman redeemer. and the gentiles - wild by their very nature! would be grafted in by faith in the Son of God. This is very very Good News indeed.

a good Church is very good. the sheep can be fed by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God; The Spirit working in them to confront them with their sins, leading them to confess to the high priest and receive forgiveness and be cleansed, and to go in peace, knowing their sins are forgiven. the fellowship of the saints is glorious and such a gift. and the Lord`s Supper....well....it makes me cry.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I got it from you and for once you were right. Water baptism is nothing more than a symbolic representation of a baptism into the Word (the teaching) of Jesus. Likewise, eating bread and wine is only symbolic of being partakers of his body and blood.

I appreciate you understand the truth of that.... Don't back down.... Don't be like a dog turning back to it's vomit. You discovered a great truth in that water baptism is only a symbol for something greater. Be glad and rejoice in the Truth.

Rom 6:4,5 water baptism is symbolic of Christ's death, burial and resurrection. If one is not water baptized then his old man is never crucified with Christ and one never is raised to walk in newness of life. So water baptism is not just symbolic but a necessary part of salvation, Mk 16:16; Act 2:38, Rom 6:3-5, etc

 

[FHII]

No... It's only symbolic. You said so yourself. Not everyone in the NT was water baptized. You are old school and not present testament.

But have a nice day.

RIP the teachings of Earnest T. Bass. A fictionial character with fictional teachings.

Nevermore....

Thus quoteth the Raven.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

And none of this applies to the sinner who has not been buried with Christ in baptism, and raised with Him in His resurrection, imo.
God is not man that He should fail. I do not believe that if someone had not time nor ability to be baptized before going to be with the Lord this nullifies their salvation. But even for we who wish to say baptism is an outward show of our faith (obedience) - which the Bible says nowhere, btw...then why the delay or downgrading of it. it is right there in the Great Commission.
The Spirit baptizes us into Christ`s death and raises us into new life - so in this sense only is it Holy Ghost Baptism (not the second blessing doctrine that methodism and pentecostalism teach).
i am not one who believes Baptism of the Holy Ghost, as they say (per Acts) nullifies water baptism. I mean no offense, i am merely stating my beliefs. i am a cessationist and the overwhelming by the Power from on High the disciples experienced was a one time events )though i was performed by God few more times, most importantly when the Spirit fell on the gentiles for the first time)
If baptism, as some say, is only getting wet, who do we do it at all. if, as some say, Holy Ghost Baptism replaced water baptism - i hope those do not baptize with water, for we are told:

Ephesians 4
Unity in the Body
4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all

i do believe water baptism is the one baptism, and that the Spirit is one who does the baptizing. :)
God Bless you all!
Poppin

Hi,

Water baptism is the one baptism of Eph 4:5 but the Holy Spirit does not do the baptizing.

Mt 28:18,19 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

Jesus commissioned His disciples to go and baptize, so water baptism is administered by disciples/humans as Phillip water baptized the eunuch, Acts 8 and Paul baptized some of the Corinthians himself, 1 Cor 1:14,16.


Lastly there is no baptism with the Holy Spirit today. I can go into more detail about this if you care to. But in a prior post of mine, I pointed out in Acts 15:11 Peter said Jew and Gentile are saved in like manner. So everyone that is saved on judgment day who lived under the NT will all be saved the same way. No one will be saved in a different manner from another. Beginning with the first recorded gospel sermon in Acts 2 and onward, water baptism is the like manner way all the conversions in Acts took place.

No... It's only symbolic. You said so yourself. Not everyone in the NT was water baptized. You are old school and not present testament.

But have a nice day.

RIP the teachings of Earnest T. Bass. A fictionial character with fictional teachings.

Nevermore....

Thus quoteth the Raven.

Again, water baptism is symbolic of Christ's death burial and resurrection but it is not only symbolic, it saves..."baptism doth also now save us" 1 Pet 3:21


From Acts 2 onward when the gospel began to be taught, the like manner way they were saved was by water baptism: Jews in Acts 2; Simon, the Samaritans, the eunuch Acts 8; Saul in Acts 9; Gentiles in Acts 10; Lydia, jailer Acts 16; Crispus and Corinthians Acts 18

 

[Poppin]

Hi,

Water baptism is the one baptism of Eph 4:5 but the Holy Spirit does not do the baptizing.

Mt 28:18,19 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

Jesus commissioned His disciples to go and baptize, so water baptism is administered by disciples/humans as Phillip water baptized the eunuch, Acts 8 and Paul baptized some of the Corinthians himself, 1 Cor 1:14,16.

well, i agree with you that men baptize each other. but I believe the Spirit works through baptism. - baptizing us into Christ`s death and raising up to walk in newness of life. i believe by that baptism, by the power of the Spirit, we are baptized into Christ, and into His body hIs church.
i do not believe that we today are overwhelmed (immersed) by the Spirit as they were at Pentecost for supernatural ministry; to receive direct revelation and so on. (what some people call Holy Ghost Baptism). but that`s okay - these are just my beliefs.
God bless you!

 

[horsecamp]

Yes Jesus is necessary for salvation and that is exactly who God gives us in holy baptism.

Yet we wont beat you over the head with Jesus..

we will proclaim him ... since he called us out of darkness into his wonderful light by his holy baptism.


Lutherans just about always cry when they hear these two hymns .

So a warning !!! Lutherans listen at your own risk



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjM18fEzD60


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5V8LTawhpw

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

well, i agree with you that men baptize each other. but I believe the Spirit works through baptism. - baptizing us into Christ`s death and raising up to walk in newness of life. i believe by that baptism, by the power of the Spirit, we are baptized into Christ, and into His body hIs church.
i do not believe that we today are overwhelmed (immersed) by the Spirit as they were at Pentecost for supernatural ministry; to receive direct revelation and so on. (what some people call Holy Ghost Baptism). but that`s okay - these are just my beliefs.
God bless you!

Jn 3:5 speaks of the new birth, and this new birth consists of two elements 1) water 2) spirit


The role of water of this new birth is of course water baptism

The role of the Holy Spirit of this new birth is the Holy Spirit authored the word and the HS begets those that believe and obey the Holy Spirit's word, 1 Pet 1:23 James 1:18 1 Cor 4:15 So the Holy Spirit begets or births one through the word, the gospel as his word, the seed operates upon the human heart.

So as one reads the Holy Spirits word it operates upon the heart leading one to believe, repent, confess and being water baptized to be saved.

Yes Jesus is necessary for salvation and that is exactly who God gives us in holy baptism.

Yet we wont beat you over the head with Jesus..

we will proclaim him ... since he called us out of darkness into his wonderful light by his holy baptism.


Lutherans just about always cry when they hear these two hymns .

So a warning !!! Lutherans listen at your own risk

Jesus' baptism is the baptism of the great commission Matt 28:19,20 which is human administered water baptism.

Jn 3:5 speaks of the new birth, and this new birth consists of two elements 1) water 2) spirit


The role of water of this new birth is of course water baptism

The role of the Holy Spirit of this new birth is the Holy Spirit authored the word and the HS begets those that believe and obey the Holy Spirit's word, 1 Pet 1:23 James 1:18 1 Cor 4:15 So the Holy Spirit begets or births one through the word, the gospel as his word, the seed operates upon the human heart.

So as one reads the Holy Spirits word it operates upon the heart leading one to believe, repent, confess and being water baptized to be saved.

Jesus' baptism is the baptism of the great commission Matt 28:19,20 which is human administered water baptism.

(Off topic, per your youtube video, Christ commanded his church to sing, not sing and play)

 

[horsecamp]

King David whom was a man after Gods own heart was famous for singing and playing the harp enough said about that..

of CORSE ITS ADMINISTERED by humans just as a human administrated water on his eyes as Christ commanded and then he saw by the power of God . same with baptism man administers as God commands and God makes the impossible happen through Gods sacrament that he let man administer..

now more about baptism

we cannot find a better resource than Christ’s words quoted , “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved” [Mark 16:16]. Therefore, state it most simply in this way: the power, work, profit, fruit, and purpose of Baptism is this– to save [1 Peter 3:21]. For no one is baptized in order that he may become a prince, but, as the words say, that he “be saved.” We know that to be saved is nothing other than to be delivered from sin, death, and the devil [Colossians 1:13-14]. It means to enter into Christ’s kingdom [John 3:5], and to live with Him forever.
–Large Catechism, Part IV.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

King David whom was a man after Gods own heart was famous for singing and playing the harp enough said about that..

of CORSE ITS ADMINISTERED by humans just as a human administrated water on his eyes as Christ commanded and then he saw by the power of God . same with baptism man administers as God commands and God makes the impossible happen through Gods sacrament that he let man administer..

now more about baptism

we cannot find a better resource than Christ’s words quoted , “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved” [Mark 16:16]. Therefore, state it most simply in this way: the power, work, profit, fruit, and purpose of Baptism is this– to save [1 Peter 3:21]. For no one is baptized in order that he may become a prince, but, as the words say, that he “be saved.” We know that to be saved is nothing other than to be delivered from sin, death, and the devil [Colossians 1:13-14]. It means to enter into Christ’s kingdom [John 3:5], and to live with Him forever.
–Large Catechism, Part IV.

David has nothing to do with NT worship.

I agree with what you posted...the purpose of water baptism is to be saved.

 

[Dodo_David]

When the thief on the cross confessed faith in Jesus, what did Jesus say to the thief in return?

"Today, you shall be with me in Paradise."

The last time that I checked, Paradise isn't Hell.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

When the thief on the cross confessed faith in Jesus, what did Jesus say to the thief in return?

"Today, you shall be with me in Paradise."

The last time that I checked, Paradise isn't Hell.

The thief is not an example of NT salvation.