Is water baptism necessary for salvation?

[Mungo]

Matt 28:19-20

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mark 16:15-16

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


From Matthew's and Mark's account of the great commission, the baptism of the great commission:
--done in the name of, that is, by the authority of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost
--it is commanded
--it is administered by disciples (humans)
--it saves
--it is to be taught to new disciples (perpetually taught till end of the world)
--it is the means by which disciples are made
--it lasts till the end of the world.


From the above facts given by Matthew and Mark, these facts eliminate baptism with the Holy Ghost as being the one baptism of Eph 4:5 for none of the above facts are true of baptism with the Holy Ghost.

--From 2 Thess 1:8 one must obey the gospel to not be in flaming fire.
--1 Cor 15:3-4 the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ.
--In Rom 6:3-7 when one is water baptized there is a death burial and resurrection that takes place hence one obeys the gospel when water baptized.

There is no obeying the gospel, [no death burial and resurrection] in baptism with the Holy Ghost, nor in 'faith only' nor in saying a 'sinner's prayer' nor in death bed conversions

I agree with your points.

There is one point I would like to add. The phrase 'baptism with the Holy Spirit' (or Holy Ghost) does not occur in scripture. It was a phrase invented in the later 19th century by Reuben Archer Torrey at the start of the Pentecostal movement.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Good quote - baptism save us.

But, which of the four I received? Many would say it was the first. But it wasn't. It was the last for the right reasons.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I agree with your points.

There is one point I would like to add. The phrase 'baptism with the Holy Spirit' (or Holy Ghost) does not occur in scripture. It was a phrase invented in the later 19th century by Reuben Archer Torrey at the start of the Pentecostal movement.

You are wrong. Read Acts 1.

5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

 

[Mungo]

Water baptism is NOT necessary for salvation, and the verses which seem to suggest that must be simply interpreted in the light of ALL Gospel truth.
So let's take a closer look at these verses:

WATER IS A METAPHOR FOR THE WORD OF GOD (THE GOSPEL)
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

Yes, born of WATER not born of the word of God.
Just because you claim it is a metaphor does'nt make it one. That's just your opinion for which you provide no supporting evidence..

BAPTISM FOLLOWS HARD UPON SALVATION
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned (Mk 16:16). [Note: Jesus did NOT say "and is not baptized" in the last clause]

But Jesus did say to believe AND be baptised. Then you will be saved.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

[Note: Acts 10 makes it clear that the gift of the Holy Ghost was given BEFORE water baptism was administered, which clarifies Acts 2:38]

Acts 10 was a special occasion to fulfill Joel's prophecy. You should not generalise from it.
Moreover you are confusing the gifts and work of the Holy Spirit. The two occasions are different.

BAPTISM REFLECTS A GOOD CONSCIENCE TOWARD GOD

The like figure [type] whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1 Pet 3:21)

You seem to be ignoring two points:
1. Peter clearly says that baptism saves us.
2. After baptism we have a good conscience towards God because our sins have been forgiven, - just as Peter said in Acts 2:28 which you quoted.

 

[Mungo]

But, which of the four I received? Many would say it was the first. But it wasn't. It was the last for the right reasons.

More likely the first one - in my opinion. But I din't know if it was done correctly.

 

[Mungo]

You are wrong. Read Acts 1.

5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

I said baptism - noun, not baptised - verb.

And I don't believe it is a trivial difference.

 

[Willie T]

Having trouble spelling the word?
Baptised vs. Baptized: What’s the Difference? - Writing Explained

 

[Enoch111]

Yes, born of WATER not born of the word of God. Just because you claim it is a metaphor does'nt make it one. That's just your opinion for which you provide no supporting evidence..

Since you hold to the FALSE DOCTRINE of baptismal regeneration, you would not believe the supporting evidence anyhow. And this is one of the proofs that the Catholic Church promotes false doctrines. No one is saved by having water sprinkled on them. And that will send many to Hell.

 

[Mungo]

Since you hold to the FALSE DOCTRINE of baptismal regeneration, you would not believe the supporting evidence anyhow. And this is one of the proofs that the Catholic Church promotes false doctrines. No one is saved by having water sprinkled on them. And that will send many to Hell.

Baptismal regeneration is Biblical - Titus 3:5.

We are saved by Jesus when we obey him.
He said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved". Do you not believe Jesus?
Pater said "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you" (1Pet 3:21)
Don't you believe the word of God?

 

[CharismaticLady]

More likely the first one - in my opinion. But I din't know if it was done correctly.

It was in a Presbyterian church from what I saw on the certificate. But how can a baby have a good conscience when all they think about is their own wants? LOL

 

[CharismaticLady]

I said baptism - noun, not baptised - verb.

And I don't believe it is a trivial difference.

Do you believe it happens today, or do you believe it does not because of how you believe it is not scriptural?

 

[Mungo]

It was in a Presbyterian church from what I saw on the certificate. But how can a baby have a good conscience when all they think about is their own wants? LOL

A baby hasn't commited any sins to be forgiven so the issue of a good conscience doesn't arise.

A baby does however need to be brought from a child of Adam to a child of God; from 'in Adam' to 'in Christ'. (see Col 1:15:22).
"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Rom 8:1)

A baby also needs to be brought into the New Covenant, a member of Christ's Church.
You may ask where is faith in all this?
The answer is the parents supply the faith, and the child should be brought up in a faith filled community. It is the parents responsibility to see that happens.

 

[Mungo]

Do you believe it happens today, or do you believe it does not because of how you believe it is not scriptural?

Do I believe what happens today?

 

[Willie T]

More likely the first one - in my opinion. But I din't know if it was done correctly.

What would be doing it correctly, as opposed to doing it incorrectly? I hear this same thing concerning communion also. But it still escapes me exactly what is meant when "correctly" or "incorrectly" is referred to.

 

[Mungo]

What would be doing it correctly, as opposed to doing it incorrectly? I hear this same thing concerning communion also. But it still escapes me exactly what is meant when "correctly" or "incorrectly" is referred to.

For a start using the words that Jesus gave us - baptise "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".
Also done with the right intention and belief - i.e. it's just a public declaration of becoming a Christian is incorrect.

As far as I know Presbyterians baptise correctly. But even if a Church officially does it correctly individuals may not.
There was a case in Australia a few years ago - in a Catholic church - where a priest being all PC baptised "in the name of the Creator and of the Redeemer and of the Sanctifier". When the Bishop found out he said all those baptised that way had to be re-baptised.
But I digress.

 

[CharismaticLady]

A baby hasn't commited any sins to be forgiven so the issue of a good conscience doesn't arise.

A baby does however need to be brought from a child of Adam to a child of God; from 'in Adam' to 'in Christ'. (see Col 1:15:22).
"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Rom 8:1)

A baby also needs to be brought into the New Covenant, a member of Christ's Church.
You may ask where is faith in all this?
The answer is the parents supply the faith, and the child should be brought up in a faith filled community. It is the parents responsibility to see that happens.

Exactly, so how could a baptism from a good conscience be legit for a baby who has no sense of right or wrong? However, infant baptism is beneficial for the parents who are dedicating their child to the Lord. I'm sure that presentation helps the parents bring up the child in the way of the Lord. But still that child must choose to become baptized themselves.

Those that quote only half of Romans 8:1 come up with a false assumption. You must walk in the Spirit to have no condemnation.

Romans 8:1 NKJV
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

You see this is true by the rest of the contextual passage.


2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[farouk]

John 3:5 says water and Spirit.



I do. See Titus 3:5
Again water and Spirit.



I don't suggest they do. But I believe they need to do both just as Jesus said in Mk 16:16

Ephesians 5.26 speaks of 'the washing of water by the word'. (This hardly portrays so called clergy supposedly bringing eternal life to a person on contact with water...)

 

[farouk]

For a start using the words that Jesus gave us - baptise "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".
Also done with the right intention and belief - i.e. it's just a public declaration of becoming a Christian is incorrect.

As far as I know Presbyterians baptise correctly. But even if a Church officially does it correctly individuals may not.
There was a case in Australia a few years ago - in a Catholic church - where a priest being all PC baptised "in the name of the Creator and of the Redeemer and of the Sanctifier". When the Bishop found out he said all those baptised that way had to be re-baptised.
But I digress.

If one follows through the themes of creation redemption and sanctification in the New Testament - especially in John's Gospel - one sees that all Three Persons of the Trinity are involved.

 

[Grailhunter]

When are you saved?
The moment of belief...Is it here?
Repentance.....Is it here?
Baptism..........Is it here?
Communion....Is it here?
How much works do you have to do, to be saved?
And what happens if you die in between?

 

[CharismaticLady]

When are you saved?
The moment of belief...Is it here?
Repentance.....Is it here?
Baptism..........Is it here?
Communion....Is it here?
How much works do you have to do, to be saved?
And what happens if you die in between?

I've been reading some of John Wesley's life and sermons. One thing that hit me was he distinguished between current state of salvation, and future state of salvation. We must always be in a current state of salvation and endure that way to the end, rather than depending on a future state of salvation and you can live your life in between as you like. That last fallacy is OSAS.