Is water baptism necessary for salvation?

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Willie T

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For a start using the words that Jesus gave us - baptise "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".
Also done with the right intention and belief - i.e. it's just a public declaration of becoming a Christian is incorrect.

As far as I know Presbyterians baptise correctly. But even if a Church officially does it correctly individuals may not.
There was a case in Australia a few years ago - in a Catholic church - where a priest being all PC baptised "in the name of the Creator and of the Redeemer and of the Sanctifier". When the Bishop found out he said all those baptised that way had to be re-baptised.
But I digress.
I'm sorry, but I see reading, "in the name of...", here, the same way I see it when Jesus said, "Whatever you ask in my name...."

Of course some people have actually taken that latter one to mean that a prayer to Jesus is not "official" if we don't verbally utter the exact words "...in Jesus' name, Amen."

I didn't choose to follow Jesus in the hopes that He would simply give me an alternative set of rules and procedures from those that the Jews happen to have.
 

Grailhunter

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I've been reading some of John Wesley's life and sermons. One thing that hit me was he distinguished between current state of salvation, and future state of salvation. We must always be in a current state of salvation and endure that way to the end, rather than depending on a future state of salvation and you can live your life in between as you like. That last fallacy is OSAS.

Probably some truth to that.
I think most of the confusion is the understanding of "saved" Most equate it to the entirety of salvation and a ticket to the highest heaven, not just saved from hell. The word is saved, not reservation in heaven....There is a lot that needs to happen and can happen from the moment of faith, saved, and the process of salvation....which moves in sanctification....the walk of life....the walk with Christ. Some do not know why there is a need for baptism when Christ died for the sins of the world. Some think that there is only one level of heaven. Levels of reward....Being saved from hell is like the worker in the vineyard....it all pays the same.
 

CharismaticLady

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Probably some truth to that.
I think most of the confusion is the understanding of "saved" Most equate it to the entirety of salvation and a ticket to the highest heaven, not just saved from hell. The word is saved, not reservation in heaven....There is a lot that needs to happen and can happen from the moment of faith, saved, and the process of salvation....which moves in sanctification....the walk of life....the walk with Christ. Some do not know why there is a need for baptism when Christ died for the sins of the world. Some think that there is only one level of heaven. Levels of reward....Being saved from hell is like the worker in the vineyard....it all pays the same.

I haven't though about different levels of heaven, but as for the other, there are some translations that say "being saved." That is continuously. Personally, I love staying in the presence of the Lord.
 

Grailhunter

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I haven't though about different levels of heaven, but as for the other, there are some translations that say "being saved." That is continuously. Personally, I love staying in the presence of the Lord.

Not trying to confuse you. Saved from hell is permanent....exceptions few.
What makes sense?
Here is an extreme....A lifelong serial killer finds Christ and repents and is Baptized etc...and then dies.
Do you think he will be standing shoulder to shoulder with you in heaven?
If you look to your left are you going to see Hitler holding a Rosary?
What I am saying is that there are various levels of rewards commensurate with your walk with Christ.
 

Willie T

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Not trying to confuse you. Saved from hell is permanent....exceptions few.
What makes sense?
Here is an extreme....A lifelong serial killer finds Christ and repents and is Baptized etc...and then dies.
Do you think he will be standing shoulder to shoulder with you in heaven?
If you look to your left are you going to see Hitler holding a Rosary?
What I am saying is that there are various levels of rewards commensurate with your walk with Christ.
Perhaps you misunderstood the meaning of the parable of the workers who worked different hours, but were all paid exactly the same wage.... even if they only worked one hour?

To man's thinking, that is very unfair of God (the vineyard owner) and we would be upset to see the killer get the same good afterlife treatment we get.
 

Grailhunter

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Perhaps you misunderstood the meaning of the parable of the workers who worked different hours, but were all paid exactly the same wage.... even if they only worked one hour?

To man's thinking, that is very unfair of God (the vineyard owner) and we would be upset to see the killer get the same good afterlife treatment we get.

No...I actually sighted that. Saved pays the same. If you do it when you are 12 or 100.
 

Grailhunter

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But, you seem to be saying that not being as good as you or me (while living) disqualifies the killer from the more choice stuff we are going to get.

Yes I am saying that....still the judgment of Christ is the final say.
People do not understand, so a lot of the theology has got mixed up.
How solid is being saved?
What is the need for Baptism?
Why be of good character?
Why do anything good if it is all the same?
Do you think Christ did not speak of rewards?
Good character and Good deeds do not save you....but it can make a difference in the afterlife.
 

Steve Owen

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There are two main reasons why I do not believe that the phrase Water and Spirit can refer to baptism. Firstly, if baptism is intended by this phrase then that ordinance is absolutely necessary for salvation. ‘Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’. On that basis, the thief on the cross is damned; likewise such groups as the Quakers and the Salvation Army, who do not practise water baptism, are, every single one of them, utterly lost. Yet there is no other Bible text that teaches this. On the contrary, two verses (1Peter 1:23; James 1:18) ascribe the New Birth not to baptism, but to the Word. Moreover Paul (1Cor. 1:17) wrote that, ‘Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel’, a strange thing to say if baptism is so very necessary to salvation.
Secondly, I cannot believe that our Lord would be reinforcing what is the chief error of Pharisaism; the idea that outward purification can bring about inward cleansing. Pharisees like Nicodemus spent all their time in ritual washings and cleansings (Mark 7:3-4). Is it really likely that the Lord Jesus would be saying to him, “What you need, Nicodemus, more than anything else, is another ritual washing”? If that was our Lord’s meaning, then why was Nicodemus so dumbfounded by it? More ceremonial, outward cleansings would have been right up his street, water off a duck’s back in more ways than one! No, Nicodemus’ problem was not on the outside but the inside. “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness” Mark 7:21f). Can an external washing purify a man from inward sin and depravity? Of course not! “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also. …….. For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness” (Matt. 23:25ff). In the Shakespeare play, Lady Macbeth cries out, “Will these hands ne’er be cleansed?” No matter how many times she washed them, the blood of her sin still seemed to stain her hands. No outward washing could make her inwardly clean. The cleansing she needed would have had to deal with her guilt within.

So if the expression Water and Spirit does not mean baptism, what does it mean? As usual, our clue lies in our text: ‘Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do you not know these things?”’ (John 3:10). What our Lord is saying is that if Nicodemus was such a great Old Testament teacher, he would know what He was talking about instead of being so totally confused and dumbfounded. Therefore there must be some reference in the Hebrew Scriptures to the New Birth and to Water and Spirit which would have helped Nicodemus to understand; otherwise our Lord’s rebuke would have been unfair. With this in mind let us consider the following verses:-

‘For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take your heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them’ (Ezek 36:24ff).

“Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts, and in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom. Purge [N.I.V., ‘cleanse’] me with hyssop and I shall be clean; wash me and I shall be whiter than snow ……..Hide Your face from my sins, and blot out my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me (Psalm 51:6,7,9,10).

Here, in these two texts, we surely get a preview of the work of God, the Holy Spirit, in the New Birth. It is a two-fold work of water and Spirit: an inward cleansing from sin and idolatry, and a renewal of the heart and spirit for future obedience. That it is a spiritual cleansing rather than baptism that is meant in these passages is indicated by the mention of hyssop in Psalm 51. This is not some ancient Hebrew soap, as I first thought when I read the Psalm as a very young Christian, but rather the sprig of a plant. On the day of the Passover, the Israelites were instructed (Exod.12:22) to dip the hyssop in the blood of the slain Passover lamb and sprinkle it on the lintel and the doorposts of their houses. Therefore, to be cleansed with hyssop is to be washed in the blood of the Lamb (Heb.9:11ff; Rev. 7:14). No outward ablution could ever cleanse us from moral ‘filthiness and idolatry’. We need a cleansing which works from within.

In the New Testament, one gets an inkling of this two-fold process in verses such as 1Cor. 6:11 or Eph. 5:26, but the clearest expression is found in Titus 3:3-5. Here Paul has been telling Titus not to be too harsh to the Cretan converts, but to show a little gentleness and humility. ‘For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another…..’ that’s what Paul and Titus were like before they were born again. ‘…..But when the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit. What is the nature of the New Birth? It is a spiritual birth of Water and Spirit; the washing away of indwelling sin and corruption, and renewal by God, the Holy Spirit.

Having said all that, baptism is an ordinance of the Lord Jesus Christ. I find it very strange if someone who claims to have been saved by Christ, does not wish to follow His command to be baptized.
 
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Grailhunter

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But, you seem to be saying that not being as good as you or me (while living) disqualifies the killer from the more choice stuff we are going to get.

Understand I do not have a denomination to defend or a denomination to promote. I give ideas to consider….no offense. No offense to me if you do not agree.
 

OzSpen

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In another thread, the subject of water baptism has intervened into the subject of the thread, and threatens to divert (The Hope Of The World). This subject can be a contentious one, but I hope it can be approached with love on all sides.

On the side of the necessity for water baptism for salvation, certain verses were quoted in that thread by a participant, which could provide a starting point.

John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21

charity,

Excellent topic. Since the thief on the cross went straight to be with Jesus in Paradise at death (without baptism) was he a saved or unsaved person in Paradise? (see Luke 23:43).

As for Mark 16:16, it is doubtful if it should be in the NT as Mk 16:9-20 is not included in some of the earliest manuscripts. In fact, Mk 16:9-20 contains heretical doctrines:
  • 'If they pick up snakes or drink any poison, they will not be hurt' (Mk 16:18 ERV).
There are snake-handling churches in the USA.
A snake-handling Pentecostal pastor died from a snake bite.

Since this passage about snakes and drinking poison are not in the earliest MSS of the NT, it seems to me it was added later by copyists as it was among traditions being passed around. I have examined this passage in, Does Mark 16:9-20 belong in Scripture?

As for John 3:5 and 1 Peter 3:21 (especially) being used to support baptismal regeneration, each of these passages requires some exegesis and contextual interpretation.

Oz
 

farouk

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I've been reading some of John Wesley's life and sermons. One thing that hit me was he distinguished between current state of salvation, and future state of salvation. We must always be in a current state of salvation and endure that way to the end, rather than depending on a future state of salvation and you can live your life in between as you like. That last fallacy is OSAS.
Romans 8.38-39 and John's First Epistle speak strongly of the true believer's eternal security and assurance.
 
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Waiting on him

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Perhaps you misunderstood the meaning of the parable of the workers who worked different hours, but were all paid exactly the same wage.... even if they only worked one hour?

To man's thinking, that is very unfair of God (the vineyard owner) and we would be upset to see the killer get the same good afterlife treatment we get.
This is because most have not been revealed their true state,as this is something that only God can reveal.
 

farouk

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This is because most have not been revealed their true state,as this is something that only God can reveal.
Paul reminds us that the Lord knows them that are His.

“Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” (2 Timothy 2.19)
 
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CharismaticLady

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Not trying to confuse you. Saved from hell is permanent....exceptions few.
What makes sense?
Here is an extreme....A lifelong serial killer finds Christ and repents and is Baptized etc...and then dies.
Do you think he will be standing shoulder to shoulder with you in heaven?
If you look to your left are you going to see Hitler holding a Rosary?
What I am saying is that there are various levels of rewards commensurate with your walk with Christ.

I don't expect to see Hitler at all. I don't care if the Catholic church has him in good standing or not. It is not up to them.

As for a serial killer who comes to Christ like Jeffrey Dahmer, Susan Atkins, Tex Watson or the Son of Sam, we will be shoulder to shoulder.

You are reasoning with human reasoning, but Jesus says otherwise:

Matthew 20:
“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 and said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. 5 Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day?’ 7 They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.’

8 “So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’ 9 And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. 11 And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, 12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’ 13 But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’ 16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”
 

Willie T

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I get the impression that some people here think John The Baptist invented baptism. Do they not know that many non-Christian religions had some form or other of baptizing for thousands of years before Jesus was even born?
 
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CharismaticLady

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Romans 8.38-39 and John's First Epistle speak strongly of the true believer's eternal security and assurance.

Hi farouk,

38-39 is all things outside the believer, and no outside force can separate us from God. But sin is an inside force. Willful sins of lawlessness after being sanctified can and does separate us from God.

Hebrews 10:26-31
 

farouk

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Hi farouk,

38-39 is all things outside the believer, and no outside force can separate us from God. But sin is an inside force. Willful sins of lawlessness after being sanctified can and does separate us from God.

Hebrews 10:26-31
The scenario you mention shows the person who lives in, is overcome by and dies in sin, was never truly born again in the first place; this is my understanding of Scripture.
 
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Waiting on him

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The scenario you mention shows the person who lives in, is overcome by and dies in sin, was never truly born again in the first place; this is my understanding of Scripture.
Be careful once Pandora is out of the box, she doesn’t fit back in very nicely.