Is your pastor deceiving you, or is he just ignorant?

[Zachary]

The more I study the NT the more WARNINGS I see,
but all the while … most pastors are preaching GRACE!
Most of the NT was written to born-again Christians in the churches,
so many warnings were written to YOU (if indeed you are born-again).
However, most believers today are blind to them (for several reasons).
Dozens of verses WARN: If you choose to keep on sinning without
serious confession and repentance (sincere regret and desire to change),
you will fall from grace and forfeit your salvation!

• “… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.” (1 John 3:7)

• “… everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)

• “… whoever (reverentially) fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him” (Acts 10:35)

• “… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin leading to death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness … so now present your members as slaves
of righteousness for holiness … the wages of sin is (eternal) death” (Romans 6:16, 19, 23)

• “For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death
the (sinful) deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by God’s Spirit,
these are sons of God.” (Romans 8:13-14)

Jesus warned: “And these (the unrighteous) will go away into everlasting punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)

“To not obey is to not believe” is taught in Hebrews 3:18-19 …
which links back to the applicable examples of: sinning (3:17), rebelling (3:16),
hardening of the heart (3:15), and not remaining faithful (3:14).

• “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved,
he will receive the crown of (eternal) life … But each one is tempted when he is drawn
away by his own desires … Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin when it is full-grown brings forth (eternal) death.” (James 1:12-16)

• “Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of (eternal) life.” (Revelation 2:10)

• Everyone who is “cowardly (fearful), unbelieving (includes unfaithful), abominable,
murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in
the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)

• “… reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men” (2 Peter 3:7)
Yes, everyone who is ungodly will be thrown into the lake of fire!

• Jesus is coming back for:
“… a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing …
holy and without blemish.” (Ephesians 5:27)
“… holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God” (Hebrews 12:14)

• To continue your progressive sanctification unto holiness,
it is critical to regularly confess and repent of your sins …
• “IF we walk in the light … the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin
… IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us (of) our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:7-9)

 

[H. Richard]

The more I study the NT the more WARNINGS I see,
but all the while … most pastors are preaching GRACE!
Most of the NT was written to born-again Christians in the churches,
so many warnings were written to YOU (if indeed you are born-again).
However, most believers today are blind to them (for several reasons).
Dozens of verses WARN: If you choose to keep on sinning without
serious confession and repentance (sincere regret and desire to change),
you will fall from grace and forfeit your salvation!

• “… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.” (1 John 3:7)

• “… everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)

• “… whoever (reverentially) fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him” (Acts 10:35)

• “… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin leading to death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness … so now present your members as slaves
of righteousness for holiness … the wages of sin is (eternal) death” (Romans 6:16, 19, 23)

• “For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death
the (sinful) deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by God’s Spirit,
these are sons of God.” (Romans 8:13-14)

Jesus warned: “And these (the unrighteous) will go away into everlasting punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)

“To not obey is to not believe” is taught in Hebrews 3:18-19 …
which links back to the applicable examples of: sinning (3:17), rebelling (3:16),
hardening of the heart (3:15), and not remaining faithful (3:14).

• “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved,
he will receive the crown of (eternal) life … But each one is tempted when he is drawn
away by his own desires … Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin when it is full-grown brings forth (eternal) death.” (James 1:12-16)

• “Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of (eternal) life.” (Revelation 2:10)

• Everyone who is “cowardly (fearful), unbelieving (includes unfaithful), abominable,
murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in
the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)

• “… reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men” (2 Peter 3:7)
Yes, everyone who is ungodly will be thrown into the lake of fire!

• Jesus is coming back for:
“… a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing …
holy and without blemish.” (Ephesians 5:27)
“… holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God” (Hebrews 12:14)

• To continue your progressive sanctification unto holiness,
it is critical to regularly confess and repent of your sins …
• “IF we walk in the light … the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin
… IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us (of) our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:7-9)

So you are saying that if a child of God sins they are not saved . But if they repent and stop sinning in the flesh they will be saved.

Sounds like someone who thinks they no longer sin in the flesh.

I thank God always that He planed a salvation that does not require that I keep the Law because in sinful flesh no one can keep the law even those that think they do.

 

[heretoeternity]

So you are saying that if a child of God sins they are not saved . But if they repent and stop sinning in the flesh they will be saved.

Sounds like someone who thinks they no longer sin in the flesh.

I thank God always that He planed a salvation that does not require that I keep the Law because in sinful flesh no one can keep the law even those that think they do.

If you cannot keep God's law, the ten commandments you are in big trouble if you want to call yourself a christian....you better check what spirit you are following, because it isn't from God....!st John "sin is transgession of the law" and "those that say they know Him and keep NOT His commandments are liars, and the truth is not in them"...........will unrepentant liars, and sinners in general inherit the eternal kingdom of God? Lots of sections of the Bible say Nope....try Hebrews 6 for starters, then work your way through 1st, 2nd and 3 John, then the four Gospels, the Revelation 14 "salvation is for those who have the testimony of Jesus and follow the Commandments of God", and Revelation 22 Jesus says 'behold I come quickly and my reward is with me for every man according to his WORKS"....

 

[mjrhealth]

hmm what does the bible say about sin...'


Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

See those who are troubled by sin, simply dont believe....

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

You really should read romans 6.

Unbelief it is waht seperates man from God.

In all His Love

 

[Zachary]

But if they repent and stop sinning in the flesh they will be saved.

Yes, Jesus is coming back for a holy church.
Overcoming is necessary (Revelation 2-3) ... overcoming sin, Satan, the world, etc.
Rev 3:21 <<< one must overcome as Jesus also overcame!

You have no excuse ... because ...
you have been given a new nature PLUS the precious indwelling Holy Spirit
(if indeed you have been given these things).

 

[Zachary]

You really should read romans 6.

You're kidding, of course.
Not 1 American believer in 100 understand what Paul is really saying in Romans 6.

You really should read (and understand, comprehend) romans 6.

He is warning: If you continue sinning, you have gained eternal death.

 

[Born_Again]

You're kidding, of course.
Not 1 American believer in 100 understand what Paul is really saying in Romans 6.

You really should read (and understand, comprehend) romans 6.

He is warning: If you continue sinning, you have gained eternal death.

Are you kidding? "Not 1 American in 100 understand what Paul is really saying in Romans 6" Are you just being sarcastic? Please, enlighten me.......

 

[IanLC]

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" (Romans 6:1-2)
This comes down to the simple matter "If you profess Jesus you should possess Jesus more so He should possess you!"
We are saved by grace through faith and no goodness or works of our own; yet if one is saved then one will live a holy life. We are enabled to live holy through the Holy Ghost is us!

 

[Barrd]

The more I study the NT the more WARNINGS I see,
but all the while … most pastors are preaching GRACE!
Most of the NT was written to born-again Christians in the churches,
so many warnings were written to YOU (if indeed you are born-again).
However, most believers today are blind to them (for several reasons).
Dozens of verses WARN: If you choose to keep on sinning without
serious confession and repentance (sincere regret and desire to change),
you will fall from grace and forfeit your salvation!

• “… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.” (1 John 3:7)

• “… everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)

• “… whoever (reverentially) fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him” (Acts 10:35)

• “… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin leading to death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness … so now present your members as slaves
of righteousness for holiness … the wages of sin is (eternal) death” (Romans 6:16, 19, 23)

• “For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death
the (sinful) deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by God’s Spirit,
these are sons of God.” (Romans 8:13-14)

Jesus warned: “And these (the unrighteous) will go away into everlasting punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)

“To not obey is to not believe” is taught in Hebrews 3:18-19 …
which links back to the applicable examples of: sinning (3:17), rebelling (3:16),
hardening of the heart (3:15), and not remaining faithful (3:14).

• “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved,
he will receive the crown of (eternal) life … But each one is tempted when he is drawn
away by his own desires … Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin when it is full-grown brings forth (eternal) death.” (James 1:12-16)

• “Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of (eternal) life.” (Revelation 2:10)

• Everyone who is “cowardly (fearful), unbelieving (includes unfaithful), abominable,
murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in
the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)

• “… reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men” (2 Peter 3:7)
Yes, everyone who is ungodly will be thrown into the lake of fire!

• Jesus is coming back for:
“… a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing …
holy and without blemish.” (Ephesians 5:27)
“… holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God” (Hebrews 12:14)

• To continue your progressive sanctification unto holiness,
it is critical to regularly confess and repent of your sins …
• “IF we walk in the light … the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin
… IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us (of) our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:7-9)

The New Testament is literally bristling with these warnings.
I can't figure out how there could possibly be any doubt...we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling...

 

[Barrd]

So you are saying that if a child of God sins they are not saved . But if they repent and stop sinning in the flesh they will be saved.

Sounds like someone who thinks they no longer sin in the flesh.

I thank God always that He planed a salvation that does not require that I keep the Law because in sinful flesh no one can keep the law even those that think they do.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

You are partly right...we all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

But that doesn't mean we can simply go on sinning and expect to go to heaven. There is a requirement that we must confess:
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

And notice...Jesus does not only forgive us our sins...He also promises to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Barrd]

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

We need to be on the watch for these grievous wolves...and even moreso for those who will arise from the church herself, who will speak "perverse things"....and who, sadly, will draw away disciples after them.

 

[Zachary]

Are you kidding?
"Not 1 American in 100 understand what Paul is really saying in Romans 6"
Are you just being sarcastic? Please, enlighten me.......

Requested enlightenment (from lots of experience on Christian forums!) ...
Paul evidently was taught by Jesus over a 17-year period how He wished him to write to the churches, which was:
The dire warnings of losing salvation were to be very tactfully mixed in with copious amounts of popular stuff,
such as edifications, encouragements, exhortations, precious promises (but to whom exactly), etc.
Spiritual Truth was to be revealed by the precious Holy Spirit to whomever God desired to learn what and when.
ALL SPIRITUAL TRUTH COMES ONLY BY SPIRITUAL REVELATION (i.e. not just by reading) IN GOD's TIMING.

Re: the "exactly" above ...
IMO, the promises in Ephesians were written ONLY to the "faithful" saints!!!
Ditto for Colossians.

 

[Barrd]

Requested enlightenment (from lots of experience on Christian forums!) ...
Paul evidently was taught by Jesus over a 17-year period how He wished him to write to the churches, which was:
The dire warnings of losing salvation were to be very tactfully mixed in with copious amounts of popular stuff,
such as edifications, encouragements, exhortations, precious promises (but to whom exactly), etc.
Spiritual Truth was to be revealed by the precious Holy Spirit to whomever God desired to learn what and when.
ALL SPIRITUAL TRUTH COMES ONLY BY SPIRITUAL REVELATION (i.e. not just by reading) IN GOD's TIMING.

Re: the "exactly" above ...
IMO, the promises in Ephesians were written ONLY to the "faithful" saints!!!
Ditto for Colossians.

I'm curious...how do you work it out to a 17 year period?
He only spent three years with the rest of His Apostles...

I'm wondering, too...are you saying that those warnings of losing salvation are hidden? Because it does seem as if people willfully overlook them.

 

[Zachary]

I'm curious...how do you work it out to a 17 year period?
He only spent three years with the rest of His Apostles...
I'm wondering, too...are you saying that those warnings of losing salvation are hidden?
Because it does seem as if people willfully overlook them.

Please see the end of Gal 1 and then Gal 2 ... 3 + 14 = 17.

Yes, the Lord purposely "somewhat hid" the warnings.
I would like to explain ...
Why the many dire warnings were so craftily written in the NT
Why they were so mixed in with edifications, etc. to the churches
Why they do not stand out with extreme clarity to most people
In a word ...
The many dire warnings are only for the elect of God.
They are spiritually revealed to an elect person at the appointed time(s).
They are quite well hidden to the non-elect.
They are there for the non-elect to produce a more law-abiding society.
The truth, which is quite well hidden in the Scriptures, is just too devastating for most to accept.

At the various judgments, the Lord can easily point to a verse or two and say, "I warned you."
Yes, this is true for the non-believers also.
Years ago when I was evangelizing in a foreign land, Jesus told me that
He was sending me to the non-elect unbelievers ALSO (for this very reason).

 

[Barrd]

Please see the end of Gal 1 and then Gal 2 ... 3 + 14 = 17.

Yes, the Lord purposely "somewhat hid" the warnings.
I would like to explain ...
Why the many dire warnings were so craftily written in the NT
Why they were so mixed in with edifications, etc. to the churches
Why they do not stand out with extreme clarity to most people
In a word ...
The many dire warnings are only for the elect of God.
They are spiritually revealed to an elect person at the appointed time(s).
They are quite well hidden to the non-elect.
They are there for the non-elect to produce a more law-abiding society.
The truth, which is quite well hidden in the Scriptures, is just too devastating for most to accept.

At the various judgments, the Lord can easily point to a verse or two and say, "I warned you."
Yes, this is true for the non-believers also.
Years ago when I was evangelizing in a foreign land, Jesus told me that
He was sending me to the non-elect unbelievers ALSO (for this very reason).

Hmmm...
It seems to me that these various warnings are very clearly spelled out.

But it also says, if I remember correctly, that God sends a strong delusion to those who do not love the truth, but take pleasure in a lie.
So, perhaps these OSASers are laboring under a strong delusion....

 

[Zachary]

Hmmm...
It seems to me that these various warnings are very clearly spelled out.
But it also says, if I remember correctly, that God sends a strong delusion to those who do not love the truth,
but take pleasure in a lie. So, perhaps these OSASers are laboring under a strong delusion....

Yes, this could very well indeed be the proper explanation of what is going on in the churches.

And let's not forget that this is a colossal battle between GOOD and EVIL ...
GOOD
the new nature
the indwelling Holy Spirit
the Holy Scriptures
God's still small voice
EVIL
Satan and his demons (some inside, some outside)
man's fallen nature
man's free will
false teachers, etc.

 

[KingJ]

The more I study the NT the more WARNINGS I see,
but all the while … most pastors are preaching GRACE!

Well grace and no judging fills churches.

hmm what does the bible say about sin...'


Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

See those who are troubled by sin, simply dont believe....

Unbelief it is waht seperates man from God.

In all His Love

If you are going to stick with unbelief seperating man then you need to understand that the belief required to please God.... is a gift from God.

We can only believe Jesus is God / Messiah if it is revealed to us. Matt 16:16-17 and 1 Cor 12:3. Now Zachary point still stands as God only reveals Himself / comes in when we draw near to Him James 4:8 / open the door to our hearts Rev 3:20....by sincere repentance Psalm 51:17 / hating what is evil and clinging to what is good Rom 12:9.

 

[KingJ]

The more I study the NT the more WARNINGS I see,
but all the while … most pastors are preaching GRACE!
Most of the NT was written to born-again Christians in the churches,
so many warnings were written to YOU (if indeed you are born-again).
However, most believers today are blind to them (for several reasons).
Dozens of verses WARN: If you choose to keep on sinning without
serious confession and repentance (sincere regret and desire to change),
you will fall from grace and forfeit your salvation!

I believe Paul is responsible for all the confusion. Paul never spoke of saved VS unsaved. He always spoke to all in the church as brethren. He always spoke as those who professed to be saved VS those who don't. We see this in 1 Cor 5. Paul was simply being respectful and not attempting to play God. Even Jesus tells us that we will know each other by our fruits.

Now does this mean that OSAS is wrong? Certainly not. Once we are in Christ we are sealed in Christ. God does not make mistakes. He judges heart and mind at a level we can't Jer 17:9-10.

But, we do not know. This is what Paul's warnings are for. He wants us to be certain that we are in Christ. Work out our salvation in fear and trembling Phil 2:12 / truthfully 1 Cor 11:31. These two verses alone are an achilles heel to any person in mortal sin thinking he is saved.

I always harp on mortal sins, even though I am not a Catholic. Because people annoy me when they quote Rom 7:15 as justification for stil sinning and thinking they are saved. When it is dead obvious that Paul was not referring to the mortal sin of murdering Christians when he says he still sins.

 

[Zachary]

Now does this mean that OSAS is wrong? Certainly not.

Sorry, there ARE many passages written to the churches (and you) that warn of ...
losing eternal life
gaining eternal death
not entering into the kingdom of God (heaven)
etc.

 

[FHII]

Sorry, there ARE many passages written to the churches (and you) that warn of ...
losing eternal life
gaining eternal death
not entering into the kingdom of God (heaven)
etc.

I may be wrong, but it sounds like you believe OSAS can't coexist with any kind of warning about being damned. Is that the case with you?

Personally, I don't associate with OSAS, but my belief is close in that I do believe in predestination. But the point that there are warnings doesn't make predestination , or OSAS, not so.