It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Scott Downey]

Perhaps it's time to give the rotting corpse of eschatological debate a decent burial.

Oh what a joy it would be to see a thread about how to have a deeper prayer life, victory over sin, heartfelt obedience, walking in the Spirit, or even effectively sharing the Gospel. And wouldn't it bless the Father's heart to see that thread extending into the thousands of comments, each offering more focused than the next on the building up of the Body of Christ and His glorious kingdom. Rather than seeing which one of us could show ourselves to be the greater theologian.
How long must we grieve the Spirit with this nonsense? It's an honest and sincere question. How long?

This is the eschatology forum!

There are plenty of subforums to discuss other subjects. Why attack the subject of this one, go post on those other forums

 

[WPM]

I'm still waiting for you to show that Jesus left on a white horse. To date I give you an F.
Show me how at the return of Jesus the economy will be like Jesus mentioned about His return concerning the days of Noah and Lot. To date I give you an F.

Until you provide an answer my responses on this issue will be the same.

Show me one of your alledged 22 supporting texts of your opinion of Rev 19 that you say supports a 3rd coming of Jesus that mention a white horse?

 

[CrowCross]

I couldn't care less what grade you give me. Seriously! You have failed to show us one text that shows a rapture of the church followed by a tribulation period followed by a 3rd coming. No Pretribbers can.

That is because it is all fiction. That is why Pretribbers are incapable of proving what they have been taught. That is why they run for the exits when challenged. That is why they resort to ad hominem when their theory is exposed. The pattern is predictable and normal.

Their theology is extra-biblical. Their rhetoric is all noise. The doctrine is dead.

You also hung on your own gallows above by failing to show us any corroboration for your claim of biblical support from other scriptural texts for a 3rd white horse coming of Christ and the saints, even though you chided Postribbers for not having the same and claiming you had 22 examples. More noise, zero substance and sheer hypocrisy and duplicity.

Did Noah have a white horse on the Lot?

 

[No Pre-TB]

I'll be returning with Jesus on my own white horse fighting with Jesus.....14 The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses.

Where does it say the church returns on a white horse? Is the church ever described as an army?

You mentioned fighting with Jesus. Thats interesting because when he does come back riding on a white horse, he treads the wine press alone. No one is fighting with him.

If you think the armies that wear white linen is the reason why you think it’s the church, how do explain Revelation 15:6? The angels also wear white linen. Therefore, there must be more context to prove someone wearing white linen is human and not angelic and that’s not in the text.

Have you ever looked at the Greek word that it uses for army? The word is actually strateuma. It’s Hebrew equivalent in the KJV is Tsaba which means army. But the KJV translators usually use the English word for host and you would see that the armies of heaven existed all throughout the Old Testament as the heavenly host, not a raptured church. Examples below:
1 Kings 22:19
Joshua 5:14

Inference to scripture can be dangerous and misleading. I’m not suggesting you’re misleading anyone. But I’m putting this out there for others to read and understand. They need to do their research before saying what they think or what they heard. That goes a long way.

But to drive the point home, angels do come back with Christ.
2 Thess 1:6-10
Matthew 25:31
Matthew 16:27

 

[CrowCross]

Where does it say the church returns on a white horse? Is the church ever described as an army?

14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

The clothing identifies those who belong to the one on the White horse. Fine linen represents the righteous deeds of the saints, made possible through Christ’s saving work

Rev 3:5 Like them, he who overcomes will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out his name from the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels.

You mentioned fighting with Jesus. Thats interesting because when he does come back riding on a white horse, he treads the wine press alone. No one is fighting with him.

Then why are those dressed in white pure fine linen presented as an army?

If you think the armies that wear white linen is the reason why you think it’s the church, how do explain Revelation 15:6? The angels also wear white linen. Therefore, there must be more context to prove someone wearing white linen is human and not angelic and that’s not in the text.

I think the word used in Rev 15:6 is 2986. lampros...bright, not white.
The word used in Rev 19:14 is 3022. leukos which means ...white. Not bright.

Now, perhaps if you used ...All-Tempa-Cheer or Tide you might get brighter whites.

Have you ever looked at the Greek word that it uses for army? The word is actually strateuma. It’s Hebrew equivalent in the KJV is Tsaba which means army. But the KJV translators usually use the English word for host and you would see that the armies of heaven existed all throughout the Old Testament as the heavenly host not a rapture church. Examples below:
1 Kings 22:19
Joshua 5:14

I looked up 4753. strateuma....The word is only used 8 times...and it speaks of troops, armies and soldiers.

Now, I do agree that 4756. stratia is used in the bible and means "host"...such as in Luke 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying....but a different word is used Rev 19:14.
If Rev 19:4 meant host...then why a different word that the greek means army?

Inference to scripture can be dangerous and misleading. I’m not suggesting you’re misleading anyone. But I’m putting this out there for others to read and understand. They need to do their research before just saying what they think or what they heard.

I just presented some research....and, it kinda shows you were following what some guy told you on a podcast and not what the bible really says in the greek.

But to drive the point home, angels do come back with Christ.
2 Thess 1:6-10
Matthew 25:31
Matthew 16:27

OK???

 

[No Pre-TB]

Then why are those dressed in white pure fine linen presented as an army?

I covered that. You’re inferring they are glorified saints. The text doesnt say that so what do we do? Are we ever referred to as an army? No. Is there scriptural backing that demonstrates the armies of Heaven have existed before? Yes, in those OT passages. Tsaba is the Hebrew equivalent to the Greek strateuma.

I just presented some research....and, it kinda shows you were following what some guy told you on a podcast and not what the bible really says in the greek.

I don’t watch podcasts. I don’t understand your comment here unless it’s ad hominem. I enjoy spending time in God’s word. What would it benefit me if I didn’t? A tree without water? Twice dried up at the roots? Instead of attacks and deflection, can we focus on the subject?

 

[WPM]

Did Noah have a white horse on the Lot?

Your childishness and avoidance exposes your false Jesuit doctrine. Your hyper-literal approach to the most figurative book in the Bible shows your hermeneutical ignorance.

 

[WPM]

Did Noah have a white horse on the Lot?

You invented this pettiness and have hung on your own hallows like Haman.

Show me one of your alledged 22 supporting texts of your opinion of Rev 19 that you say supports a 3rd coming of Jesus that mention a white horse? Everyone knows you have zero support. You have nothing.

That is why Pretribbers avoid and insult. They have nothing else. Scripture exposes their error.

You are only serving to reinforce the Op. For that I am grateful.

 

[CrowCross]

I covered that.

??????

You’re inferring they are glorified saints.

yes, the saints that come back with Christ on the white horses are glorified.

The text doesnt say that so what do we do? Are we ever referred to as an army?

yes, in Rev 19.

No. Is there scriptural backing that demonstrates the armies of Heaven have existed before? Yes, in those OT passages. Tsaba is the Hebrew equivalent to the Greek strateuma.

I presented you with two different similar words...I don't see you making your point.

I don’t watch podcasts. I don’t understand your comment here unless it’s ad hominem. I enjoy spending time in God’s word. What would it benefit me if I didn’t?

You don't seem to be interested in seeing how both words are similar yet different.

A tree without water? Twice dried up at the roots? Instead of attacks and deflection, can we focus on the subject?

I've been biblically enhancing the conversation...heck, I even posted the word and the definitions. But, if you need to use your own definitions, so be it.

 

[CrowCross]

You invented this pettiness and have hung on your own hallows like Haman.

Show me one of your alledged 22 supporting texts of your opinion of Rev 19 that you say supports a 3rd coming of Jesus that mention a white horse? Everyone knows you have zero support. You have nothing.

That is why Pretribbers avoid and insult. They have nothing else. Scripture exposes their error.

You are only serving to reinforce the Op. For that I am grateful.

Show me where Jesus left on the white horse. If you can't then you must retract.
Show me where the social economy of Noahs and Lots day are what the end of the tribulation will be like. If you can't then you must retract.

 

[WPM]

Show me where Jesus left on the white horse. If you can't then you must retract.
Show me where the social economy of Noahs and Lots day are what the end of the tribulation will be like. If you can't then you must retract.

You cannot answer simple basic questions. That is because they expose your man-made teaching. Avoidance and ad hominem is all you have. That is all Pretribbers have.

It is funny to watch. You guys expose yourselves. You reinforce the Op.

 

[WPM]

Show me where Jesus left on the white horse. If you can't then you must retract.
Show me where the social economy of Noahs and Lots day are what the end of the tribulation will be like. If you can't then you must retract.

Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant [Gr. loipoy or remaining ones or those left behind] were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Check out the detail here and show me how anyone could survive this? Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. This shows how Premillennialists are not the literalists they constantly claim. They spiritualize multiple passages that expose their doctrine. You localize the destruction in Revelation 19, despite it saying the opposite, that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premillennialists couldn’t wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Work that out! That is as water-tight and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premillennialists, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.

 

[CrowCross]

You cannot answer simple basic questions. That is because they expose your man-made teaching. Avoidance and ad hominem is all you have. That is all Pretribbers have.

It is funny to watch. You guys expose yourselves. You reinforce the Op.

Show me where Jesus left on the white horse. If you can't then you must retract.
Show me where the social economy of Noahs and Lots day are what the end of the tribulation will be like. If you can't then you must retract.

 

[CrowCross]

Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant [Gr. loipoy or remaining ones or those left behind] were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Check out the detail here and show me how anyone could survive this? Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. This shows how Premillennialists are not the literalists they constantly claim. They spiritualize multiple passages that expose their doctrine. You localize the destruction in Revelation 19, despite it saying the opposite, that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premillennialists couldn’t wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Work that out! That is as water-tight and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premillennialists, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.

Buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. You failed again.

Show me where Jesus left on the white horse. If you can't then you must retract.
Show me where the social economy of Noahs and Lots day are what the end of the tribulation will be like. If you can't then you must retract.

 

[WPM]

Show me where Jesus left on the white horse. If you can't then you must retract.
Show me where the social economy of Noahs and Lots day are what the end of the tribulation will be like. If you can't then you must retract.

If the day of the Lord 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34 they will 'eat, drink, and be given in marriage' up until the day that Jesus comes. This is telling us that life will continue as normal right up until Jesus' return. Christ's coming is going to catch the wicked unexpectedly. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. The wrath of God is sudden and totally destructive. No one survives as this passage tells us.

 

[WPM]

Buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. You failed again.

Show me where Jesus left on the white horse. If you can't then you must retract.
Show me where the social economy of Noahs and Lots day are what the end of the tribulation will be like. If you can't then you must retract.

Avoidance, avoidance, avoidance!!! Your only proof text demolishes what you have been taught.

You have nothing in God's Book. Pretrib is an alarming deception.

 

[WPM]

Buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. You failed again.

Show me where Jesus left on the white horse. If you can't then you must retract.
Show me where the social economy of Noahs and Lots day are what the end of the tribulation will be like. If you can't then you must retract.

Scripture seems to be your biggest enemy. You avoid it like the plague. No wonder you are venomous towards those who present it.