It's a funny thing...

[Matthias]

Christianity began as a sect of Judaism.

As the number of gentile members increased - which is what happened as the church took the Messiah’s gospel to the nations of the world -> the great commission implemented - the Jewish theology was gradually replaced.

That is how Christianity separated from Judaism.



The earliest Christians were Jews who believed Jesus is the Messiah. Christianity was a unique unit within Judaism.

Christianity is within Judaism …. (shift) …Christianity is without Judaism.

Sects within Christianity have historically been persecuted by Christianity. The sect founded by Jesus within Judaism was persecuted by Judaism.

The majority of Jews didn’t (and don’t) believe Jesus of Nazareth, himself a Jew, is the Messiah promised by the God of Judaism. A minority of Jews did (and still do.)



Let’s do it.

Trinitarian (Anglican) support for what I’ve described in post #98 @Riven.

”In later times the church no longer perceiving the power and decisiveness of the agent-son-representative model, and having among its members men used to a more philosophical analysis, felt it necessary to go further in the direction of metaphysical identity between Jesus and his heavenly Father : released from Jewish monotheism, gentile Christians began to think of Jesus as also, in some sense God.”

(A.E. Harvey, Jesus and the Constraints of History, p. 173)

I’ve placed in bold the shift in theology which happened in early church history. This is the breaking away, theologically, of Christianity from Judaism. Church leadership no longer Jewish.

 

[Matthias]

No. Because the Muslims I've spoken with seemed certain that they worship the same god as the Christians. Although they believe that Jesus was a prophet.

Let’s talk about it then before going on. Did the Muslims you spoke with tell you that they were trinitarians?

It even comes from the same region of the world. The desert! Where God seems to prefer to reveal things to mankind. His favorite location, as it were. Which is kind of funny because I have an affinity for deserts myself. I'm not really sure why, but it is so.

 

[Riven]

Let’s talk about it then before going on. Did the Muslims you spoke with tell you that they were trinitarians?

No.

 

[Matthias]

No.

The Quran prohibits identification of Allah with the Trinity.

I don’t know why the Muslims you spoke with told you that the God of Islam and the God of Christianity is the same God when that obviously isn’t the case. If I had been speaking with them, I would have confronted them with the Quran.

If they were ever to say such a thing in a mosque, it would cause a major uproar. What they told you is blasphemous in their religion. Perhaps depending on the country where they would dare say it, it would cost them their lives.

 

[Riven]

The Quran prohibits identification of Allah with the Trinity.

I don’t know why the Muslims you spoke with told you that the God of Islam and the God of Christianity is the same God when that obviously isn’t the case. If I had been speaking with them, I would have confronted them with the Quran.

If they were ever to say such a thing in a mosque, it would cause a major uproar. What they told you is blasphemous in their religion. Perhaps depending on the country where they would dare say it, it would cost them their lives.

I hadn't read the Qur'an. So I was in no position to confront them. They did not affirm the trinity, but they did say that Allah is God. Saying something like this would cost them their lives?

 

[Matthias]

I hadn't read the Qur'an.

Have you read an English translation of the Quran since having that encounter with them?

So I was in no position to confront them. They did not affirm the trinity …

Christianity (broken away from Judaism) affirms the Trinity. The other thing I would have done, if I had had the encounter you experienced, would be to confront them with the Nicene Creed.

… but they did say that Allah is God.

If I had been there, I would have told them that Christianity says that Allah (who has no son) is not God.

Saying something like this would cost them their lives?

Saying that the God of Christianity is the God of Islam would probably have cost them their lives in the setting I described.

 

[Riven]

Have you read an English translation of the Quran since having that encounter with them?

No.

If I had been there, I would have told them that Christianity says that Allah (who has no son) is not God.

After doing a Google search, it appears that Allah is the word for God in Arabic. I don't speak Arabic myself, so can't confirm.

Saying that the God of Christianity is the God of Islam would probably have cost them their lives in the setting I described.

That really doesn't do Islam any favors.

 

[Matthias]

No.

You should read it some time.

After doing a Google search, it appears that Allah is the word for God in Arabic. I don't speak Arabic myself, so can't confirm.

I don’t speak or read Arabic but it is true that allah is the word for God in Arabic.

That really doesn't do Islam any favors.

I’ll leave that thought for Muslims to respond to.

The only other possibility that I’ve thought of in regard to your unique encounter is the Unitarian Universalist Church. Are you familiar with the UU’s? Did the Muslims you were speaking with mention anything about having a connection with them?

 

[Matthias]

@Riven is your rare and unique experience with Muslims a hurdle that you can’t clear?

 

[Matthias]

From my X / Twitter “For you” feed this afternoon @Riven -

“Well, I guess I’m with the Orthodox on Muslims not worshipping the same God.”

https://x.com/5solas2/status/1939525117433765989?s=61

I showed interest in your interest in Orthodox Christianity and boom! X / Twitter is all over me about Orthodox Christianity now.

 

[Riven]

@Riven is your rare and unique experience with Muslims a hurdle that you can’t clear?

No.

From my X / Twitter “For you” feed this afternoon @Riven -

“Well, I guess I’m with the Orthodox on Muslims not worshipping the same God.”

https://x.com/5solas2/status/1939525117433765989?s=61

I showed interest in your interest in Orthodox Christianity and boom! X / Twitter is all over me about Orthodox Christianity now.

Thats funny. It's showing up in my YouTube feed now, too. Ah, the power of algorithms. Lol.

 

[Matthias]

No.

You’ve concluded then for the moment, by means of a highly unusual and irregular personal life experience, that the assertion made by the Christian ministry is false. The information about Jesus’ own religion has made no significant difference yet in your evaluation process. Is that a fair summary?

What would help you clear the hurdle?

Thats funny. It's showing up in my YouTube feed now, too. Ah, the power of algorithms. Lol.

I don’t know if Big Brother is watching us or not but someone (or something) is.

 

[Riven]

You’ve concluded then for the moment, by means of a highly unusual and irregular personal life experience, that the assertion made by the Christian ministry is false. The information about Jesus’ own religion has made no significant difference yet in your evaluation process. Is that a fair summary?

What would help you clear the hurdle?

Allah must stand before me and tell me he is not the god the Christians worship. But if we can't do that, I don't really know. If Jesus practiced Judaism, then why did he speak about establishing a new church?

I don’t know if Big Brother is watching us or not but someone (or something) is.

Do you believe in demons? Do you think they can influence people?

 

[Matthias]

Allah must stand before me and tell me he is not the god the Christians worship.

That’s not how Allah works.

But if we can't do that, I don't really know.

A fallback position which might suffice for you: Allah speaks against the God of the Christians in the Quran.

If Jesus practiced Judaism…

It’s a well established fact that he did.

... then why did he speak about establishing a new church?

When did he do that? Is there a particular passage of scripture you have in mind?

Do you believe in demons?

Yes.

Do you think they can influence people?

Yes.

 

[Riven]

That’s not how Allah works.

It's not how any of these deities work it seems.

A fallback position which might suffice for you: Allah speaks against the God of the Christians in the Quran.

Yes, that would suffice. You'll habe to forgive me for not thinking of this. The past couple weeks have been a rollercoaster for me.

It’s a well established fact that he did.

There are facts, and there are alternative facts.

When did he do that? Is there a particular passage of scripture you have in mind?

Yes. Matthew 16:18.

Yes.

Have you ever encountered them yourself?

Yes.

How much do you think they influence people?

 

[Matthias]

It's not how any of these deities work it seems.

In the ancient Greek and Roman mythologies they - at least some of them -stood before men (and women) frequently.

Yes, that would suffice. You'll habe to forgive me for not thinking of this. The past couple weeks have been a rollercoaster for me.

I’m sorry to hear that you’ve been having a difficult time of late. Things go on behind the scenes in peoples lives that we’re oblivious to. I frequently let unpleasant things that are said pass, chalking it up to the possibility of something going on in their lives that I’m unaware of.

There are facts, and there are alternative facts.

I often run into that. For example, some time back I was speaking with a person who was quite certain that Moses was a Catholic. Jesus, too. I reviewed Catholic sources with him - reviewing non-Catholic sources with him wouldn’t have done any good; the only thing he was open to listening to was reading it for himself directly from Catholic sources - which led him to accept that Moses and Jesus were both Jews and practitioners of Judaism.

Yes. Matthew 16:18.

The Greek word rendered “church” in English is ekklesian. It means a religious body or congregation. He was founding a new sect within Judaism.

Have you ever encountered them yourself?

Yes.

How much do you think they influence people?

It runs the gamut from minor to severe.

 

[Riven]

In the ancient Greek and Roman mythologies they - at least some of them -stood before men (and women) frequently.

Yes, and that's part of the reason why I love Greek mythology so much. The gods were part of life. God is more of a mystery that's just kind of out there somewhere. Maybe.

I’m sorry to hear that you’ve been having a difficult time of late. Things go on behind the scenes in peoples lives that we’re oblivious to. I frequently let unpleasant things that are said pass, chalking it up to the possibility of something going on in their lives that I’m unaware of.

I appreciate that.

I often run into that. For example, some time back I was speaking with a person who was quite certain that Moses was a Catholic. Jesus, too. I reviewed Catholic sources with him - reviewing non-Catholic sources with him wouldn’t have done any good; the only thing he was open to listening to was reading it for himself directly from Catholic sources - which led him to accept that Moses and Jesus were both Jews and practitioners of Judaism.

Haha. Well, at least he was amenable to reason in the end. That's really the sign of a person that wants to learn and improve. It's so easy to become comfortable with what you know and become dig in your heels when presented with evidence, or even news ideas, that contradict your own.

The Greek word rendered “church” in English is ekklesian. It means a religious body or congregation. He was founding a new sect within Judaism.

What is the church if not a religious body or congregation?

It runs the gamut from minor to severe.

Hmm... and how does one know whether or not they are under demonic influence?

 

[Matthias]

What is the church if not a religious body or congregation?

It is. His original religious body is a Jewish sect.

Hmm... and how does one know whether or not they are under demonic influence?

The person who is under demonic influence typically doesn’t know. (Some summon demons.) The person observing sometimes knows and sometimes doesn’t know. Medical evaluation is advised to rule out a physical illness.

 

[Riven]

It is. His original religious body is a Jewish sect.

So is it your view then that Christianity is heretical? What place does it have alongside Judaism?