Hi Unorthodox Christian (UC) with Kriss and Denver mentioned:Misunderstandings over interpretations on this Rapture Topic appears to be causing great divisions among the members of Christ’s body on this Board, because many people are mixing together the doctrinal precepts of “Prophecy” seen by the OT Prophets AND elements of “The Mystery” NOT seen by any of them. This is a classic example of both sides being wrong and neither side appears willing to take the necessary steps to reconcile your differences using Scripture and a ‘true’ definition of all the terms. This means every Rapture Topic becomes mired in Semantics where each person is using homemade definitions and pretending everyone is on the same page. Before answering your Opening Post and attempting to assist all sides in seeing ‘the truth’ on this Rapture topic, please allow me to set the stage with a story of how monkeys are trapped in Africa AND how men fall into the same kinds of traps on these difficult Bible Topics: To catch a wild monkey in the jungle one needs a length of rope, a coconut and a small handful of rice. You drill a small hole in one end of the coconut and a larger hole in the opposite end, just large enough for the monkey to insert his hand. You slip the rope through the smaller hole and tie a knot and tie the other end to a nearby tree, then put a small bit of rice into the larger hole. The monkey smells the rice and runs to grab his big handful only to realize he cannot get his fist out of the coconut. :0) Since the monkey is stubborn and will never let go of his choice morsels, then he is sitting there the next morning waiting for the trapper to gather him up. Let us try to read your Opening Post in this light . . .
UC >> Rapture is a man made dogma, Derives from the misuse of 1st Thessalonian 4.
We most certainly disagree. Our
“gathering together” (2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) is just one doctrinal component of Pauline Doctrine based completely upon
“The Mystery” (Ephesians 3:3) of things
“Hidden IN GOD” (Ephesians 3:9) AND revealed through the ministry of the Apostle Paul for the benefit of the
“Body of Christ” (Ephesians 4:12). I have now read enough Rapture Posts from the membership here to determine the culprit is a complete lack of understanding regarding the true definition of the Greek term “musterion” (#3466) commonly translated the “Mystery.” The common mistake of professing Bible scholars in the world today is they refuse to ‘rightly divide’ the word of truth regarding things ‘seen’ by the OT Prophets (Prophecy) AND the things NOT seen by any of them, but ONLY ‘revealed’ through the ministry of the Apostle Paul. Here I sit, behind this computer screen, determining the best method to allow my brothers and sisters IN Christ Jesus to simply let go of their handful of rice. :0) The first step in this lesson is to carefully examine the exact definition of the Greek term used in 1 Corinthians 15:51 (musterion) that PAUL connects directly to our translation to immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53).
http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vi...n.pl?num=1884#1
musterion primarily that which is known to the mustes, "the initiated" (from mueo, "to initiate into the mysteries;" cp. Php_4:12, mueomai, "I have learned the secret," RV). In the NT it denotes, NOT the mysterious (as with the English word), but that which, being OUTSIDE the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known ONLY by Divine Revelation, and is made known in a manner and at A TIME appointed BY GOD, and to those ONLY who are ‘illumined’ by HIS SPIRIT. In the ordinary sense a "mystery" implies knowledge withheld; its Scriptural significance is truth REVEALED. Hence the terms especially associated with the subject are "made known," "manifested," "revealed," "preached," "understand," "dispensation." The definition given above may be best illustrated by the following passage: "the MYSTERY which hath been HID from ALL AGES and GENERATIONS: but NOW hath it been MANIFESTED to His saints" (Col_1:26, RV). "It is used of . . .”
This term “musterion” is used by the Apostle Paul some 20 times to describe things “Hidden in God,” while all the Epistles bearing the names Hebrews, James, Peter, John and Jude use this term NEVER even one time. This term ‘musterion’ has nothing to do with anything being “mysterious” at all, but is all about describing things
“OUTSIDE the range of unassisted natural apprehension.” These things connected to
“The Mystery” can be made known
“ONLY by Divine Revelation, AND is made known in a MANNER and a TIME appointed BY GOD.” This means God selected ‘the time’ for each aspect of “The Mystery” to be revealed through the Apostle Paul, AND God also chooses the time each individual member of Christ’s body receives this Hidden Wisdom in a ‘seed (faith), shoot (knowledge) and fruit (wisdom)’ series of ‘revelations.’ The “Mystery implies KNOWLEDGE WITHHELD” by definition, which means NONE of the Old Testament Prophets ever saw any elements of “The Mystery” revealed in the Pauline Epistles. Jesus Christ is giving PROPHETIC information in His Matthew 24 Olivet Discourse right out of Zechariah 14, but NONE of that has anything to do with Paul’s “The Mystery,” our “gospel” that is “according to the revelation of THE MYSTERY” (Romans 16:25), OR our “mystery” (1 Corinthians 15:51) translation to immortality described to the Thessalonians in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. Men blinded by their Denominationalism combine Prophecy and The Mystery together in complete ignorance of the VAST differences requiring you to ‘rightly divide’ (2 Timothy 2:15) the former (Prophecy) from the latter (The Mystery), as the OT Prophets cannot possibly ‘see’ anything connected to “The Mystery” at all. If you ever want to get this Rapture topic ‘right,’ then you MUST learn to separate the Prophecy doctrinal precepts from anything connected to “The Mystery,” or you will be mired in the mud of semantics running in the same lost place forevermore.
UC >> Kriss and Denver I have both seen you use the Word Fly Up. As I spoke to Jag, We are not going TO fly but be Taken By force with Christ, HARPAZO (Click Here for more detail on the Word. The Hebrew word for Flying away in Ezekiel 13:20 is Parach, to Fly not to be Taken by force.
The Hebrew words have nothing to do with anything on this Rapture Topic. Nothing! Ezekiel cannot see things “HIDDEN IN GOD” (Ephesians 3:9), until LATER ‘revealed’ through the ministry of the Apostle Paul. The ways in which Kriss and Denver wish to characterize “Harpazo” (
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon...726&Version=kjv) has nothing to do with anything. Scripture says,
“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
You can characterize our being ‘caught up’ to meet the Lord IN THE AIR as anything you wish, but the Apostle Paul is teaching this aspect of “The Mystery” seen by NONE of the OT Prophets and NEVER talked about ANYWHERE in Scripture by anyone else. The fact is that many people are confusing Christ’s ‘glorious’ return (Matthew 24:30-31) at the END of the age with His ‘mystery’ coming for His mystery “Body of Christ” described right here in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, as if those are the same event, when NOTHING could be farther from ‘the truth.’ The Apostle Paul is describing how the 1000 Years Day of the Lord will BEGIN, while Jesus Christ (Matthew 24) is describing how the same 1000 Year Period WILL END. That simple fact says our mystery gathering to the Lord takes place some 1000 Years BEFORE the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24, whether you guys ever wake up to realize that fact or not.
Here is a basic diagram designed to help the members of Christ’s body see the differences between the events of “Prophecy” VERSUS the events connected directly to “The Mystery.” Find “Today” on the Mystery/Prophecy Timeline to realize we are approaching the ‘start’ of the 1000 Year Day of the Lord shaded in light blue. Find
“Rapture Of Mystery Church (First Resurrection)” leading straight up the golden arrow through 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 for the “Body of Christ” (Ephesians 4:12 = that’s us) on our way to ‘rewards’ (2 Corinthians 5:10) and ruling with Christ ‘in heaven’ for the entire 1000 years that Satan is chained (Revelation 20:2) in the Pit. Then realize our mystery rapture takes place some 1000 years BEFORE any of the Matthew 24 events transpire at the
END of the same 1000 Year Period. MANY of the members to this fine Bible Board have no clue as to the VAST differences between the Prophetic (seen) Kingdom “Bride” (John 3:29 = Peter, John, James, etc.) VERSUS the Mystery “Body of Christ” under construction in the world ‘today.’ Peter’s “early rains” (James 5:7) Kingdom “Bride” was gathered some 2000 years ago through the “Gospel of the Kingdom” within the blue (Gospels/Acts) portion of this Timeline, while our “Body of Christ” is maturing TODAY during this 2000 Year Mystery Time shaded in red. Satan is the prince of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:2) and the “god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) very much in power today, but he is CHAINED for the upcoming 1000 Years where “we” (Body of Christ) occupy those vacated heavenly seats and rule for the same 1000 years IN HEAVEN. Our citizenship is IN HEAVEN (Philippians 3:20) and NOT on this earth, as we have been called to judge the world and the angels (1 Corinthians 6:2-3). The OT Prophets ‘can’ see the events contained in the ‘blue’ (water witness) portion of your New Testament (Kingdom Epistles), but they see NOTHING inside the red section where the Apostle Paul is our only ‘prophet’ concerning all things related to “The Mystery;” which includes our Mystery Rapture.
UC >> With this I can conclude that we are going to meet Yeshua HaMashiach when he comes, after Translation, After the 5th, 6th, and 7th Trump are sounded.
This is complete and utter NONSENSE pointing to the problems we are facing on this Board where ‘both sides’ have things turned upside down and backwards on this Rapture Topic. There is no mention of any 5th, 6th or 7th Trumpets anywhere in the Pauline Epistles, which finds you running into areas of PROPHECY trying desperately to redefine doctrinal components of our Rapture very much connected to the “mystery” (1 Corinthians 15:51). Go back up to the diagram to realize the seven ‘prophetic’ trumpets all sound off just prior to the END of the age way over by the “Great Tribulation / Short Time” shaded in purple. Then find our “Rapture of Mystery Church” again some 1000 years EARLIER where the 1000 Year Day of the Lord BEGINS. The Pre, Mid-Week and Post-Tribulation Rapture theories are all DEAD WRONG and off by the same 1000 Years contained within the Day of the Lord and Unorthodox Christian has fallen into the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory TRAP set by Denominationalism and those blinded by the “deluding influence” (2 Thessalonians 2:11) forcing people into believing “what is false” all their days. The question is over whether or not you will continue harping on this Dead Wrong church dogma, OR if God will tap UC on the shoulder and say,
“Now is the time for you to see The Mystery,” according to His Divine Will and Intentions.
UC >> The Word Harpazo is to be taken by force. WE WILL NOT FLY like you have pointed up, but with a twinkling of an eye but caught up. Remember Flying is a Process, Being Harpazo(Or Taken up) is IN AN INSTANT, not a process. No where is the Hebrew Word Fly in Ezekiel 13:20, Parach, in anyway shape or form come close to the Greek word Harpazo, taken by force or forcibly snatched.
http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vi...fn.pl?num=420#1 The term “harpazo” means “to snatch or catch away” translated “caught up” to meet the Lord in the air. The emphasis is on GOD doing the snatching apart from MEN doing any flying. :0)
UC >> The Word Rapture shouldn't even be used, it's now where in the bible.
The word “bible” is not used in the Bible either, but we use these words to convey the meaning of what those terms represent from our well-supported OR broken theologies. If a member of Christ’s body decides “Rapture” best describes his understanding of “Harpazo,” then Rapture is as good as any term to convey that message IMHO.
UC >> They took the Greek Connotations for Harpazo, and used another word related to it, which is the Greek means Rapture.
We disagree. No Greek Scholar to my knowledge has translated Harpazo into “Rapture” in any Bible translation, but the Greek term means “caught up.” Men have described their ‘caught up’ doctrine using the term “Rapture,” which coincides with the Greek transliteration of Harpazo. In truth, the English word “Rapture” (
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rapture) is derived from the Latin term “rapere” meaning to “snatch, grab, carry off.”
UC >> I'm not against the Rapture, I'm just against those that believe in the doctrine, yet don't even follow what the Bible says.
Every word of Scripture must be interpreted properly in a true ‘context,’ before anyone can begin following anything. Since you are against those teaching this Rapture (catching away) doctrine, then the Apostle Paul must be the first bad guy on your list. :0)
UC >> Satan comes between the 5th and 6th Trump Revelation 9 says So.
Satan comes? Please forgive, but Satan is already here and has yet to be chained, when the 1000 Years Day of the Lord BEGINS with our Rapture. If you will run back to Revelation 1:10, then you will hear our trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52 , 1 Thessalonians 4:16) sounding off “behind” John LONG before any of the numbered trumpets sound off, just about 1000 years LATER. Please offer us your explanation for the ‘trumpet’ of Revelation 1:10, before concluding our ‘mystery’ gathering is connected to ANY event of Prophecy. Our mystery trumpet sounds off ‘behind’ John, because he is numbered among the NT ‘prophets’ also oblivious to Paul’s teachings on “The Mystery.” All John sees is Christ with His brand new body (Revelation 1:10-19) already gathered, as ‘we’ (body of Christ) are already gathered and “IN” the Lamb for the entire 1000 Years running from Revelation 1-20.
UC >> My message is to Kriss and Denver, the Rapture IS NOT A FLYING AWAY, ti's a HARPAZO, being caught up, or taken with Force, after our bodies are translated, WE WILL MEET YESHUAT ADONAI!
There is no Yeshuat Adonai in my Bible and I am amazed your work is clouded with the use of such confusion. Jesus Christ = Jesus Christ. Please check in your Bible again . . .
UC >> As a cloud, but in the Air. I don't know why you brother and sister say the Harpazo is a lie.
Unorthodox Christian is against Christians believing in the Rapture Doctrine taught by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, so what makes you any different from others against Harpazo? When this member of Christ’s body takes a good look around at the membership comprising the landscape of this fine Bible Board, then I see people with one hand on their Bibles and the other stuck deeply into that coconut unwilling to simply let go of false interpretations based upon false assumptions and the mixing together of Prophecy and the Mystery; apart from ‘rightly dividing’ (2 Timothy 2:15) anything at all. Paul tells these Thessalonians (and you) to
“make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you” (1 Thessalonians 4:11), just prior to ‘revealing’ these mystery truths about our gathering to the Lord. However, Jesus Christ describes a much different scenario leading up to the END of the age some 1000 years LATER in His Matthew 24 Olivet Discourse having NOTHING whatsoever to do with our mystery Rapture at all. If you are ever going to see “The Mystery” events of Pauline Doctrine in a true ‘context,’ then you MUST begin separating those things ‘seen’ (Prophecy) by the prophets from the things “Hidden In God” ONLY to be ‘revealed’ within the Pauline Epistles. In Christ Jesus even now,Terral