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It's not a Rapture, but Harpazo(Taken by Force)

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Unorthodox Christian, Dec 4, 2007.

  1. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    Paul says, “We will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” saying “this mortal must put on immortality.” Paul says the Lord will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first, then “we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” Before you expend energy professing what Paul is NOT saying, then please tell everyone here the ‘doctrine’ you teach from these precepts taken directly out of God’s Living Word. Thank you in advance,
    Not addressed to me,but I will answerI Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"Paul is now going to show us a mystery that deals with our generation, for a mystery is something that cannot be understood. However, when the details and clues of the mystery are know, then it is no longer a mystery. This mystery deals with a time when something is going to happen all over the earth to all flesh bodies, when these flesh bodies are not die anymore. Why will this be? Because all people living in their flesh bodies will be changed instantly from their flesh bodies, into their new incorruptible bodies. We have already established that each of us have two bodies, one is of the flesh, and the other body is a spiritual body that is within our flesh body. The spiritual body is not made alive or freed from the flesh body until the flesh body is done away with. I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."The time that it will take to change all the physical or natural bodies on this earth into their spiritual bodies will be faster than you can wink your eye. It is instant. Paul is telling us that this change will come "at the last trump", and that is when there are no more trumps. He identifies that trumpet as the seventh trumpet, and we know that this is the very moment when Jesus Christ comes back to earth to establish His Millennium kingdom, right here on earth. We are talking about God's trumpets here and on the sixth trumpet Satan comes to earth to deceive the whole world. If you are waiting for a rapture, then you are going to be raptured by someone other than Jesus Christ for He is coming to earth to set up His kingdom here. The seventh trump is the exact time when the change takes place, and at no other place. Remember the "dead" are the "spiritually dead" in Christ. "Raised" again means to "become awakened", to become active from another existence. The soul will shed its flesh and blood body to take on the new spiritual body, which is the incorruptible body. You may be spiritually dead, but you will also take on your new incorruptible body, which you will live in for the Millennium age kingdom of Christ.Everyone is going to enter into the only dimension whereby any soul can be judged. This change from the flesh body into your new spiritual or incorruptible has nothing to do with the condition of your soul. If you were lost before, you still will be lost, and if you have received Jesus Christ and are under His shed blood, you will be in that same spiritual condition. What is happening is at the sounding of the seventh which is the last trumpet all flesh will be done away with, and all souls will now exist in their spiritual bodies. This bring out another point to consider, for if you are changed, the instant of the sounding of the seventh trumpet into your spiritual body, then whoever you see at the sounding of the sixth trumpet, when Satan arrives is a fake. If someone claims to be Jesus Christ, and you are still in your flesh body, than that supernatural person is an impostor, a fake, a liar, an Antichrist. That can't be to hard to understand. If your kids are younger than you, or grandma is still in the nursing home, than that man is a fake. This is what we covered above concerning I Thessalonians 4:13-17. This is why Paul does not want us ignorant concerning the dead. Death is not the end but the beginning of the new life, and Paul does not want Christians especially to be ignorant as to were the dead are. Lets review it again. I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him."Believing that Jesus died and rose again is required of all Christians. At the seventh trump God is not going to raise soul rotting in the ground, but they are already there with Him, and at Jesus coming these souls of dead loved ones will return with Christ to the earth. There is not meeting half way as the rapture theory teaches, but at their arrival you who are alive at that time will be changed to the same spiritual bodies that they have.If you have your faith all wrapped up in a rapture doctrine you are walking on very dangerous ground, for you are waiting in the flesh body for something that you will not see in the flesh body. Sure Satan will be supernatural when he comes, and he will present himself exactly as your rapture doctrine expects him to come. The rapture dogma was developed in 1830 by Margaret MacDonald in Scotland when she was in a sick and mentally ill condition. The Scottish minister Edward Irving, took this evil vision, and formed it into what is known today as "the Rapture doctrine", and through Robert Norton's book, "The restoration of Apostles and prophets; in the Catholic Apostolic church", the view became popular. The exposing of the origins of the rapture theory is completely revealed in Dave MacPherson's book; "The Incredible Cover-up". No part of the Catholic church has ever accepted this tradition as truth, yet certain protestant churches have accepted Margaret's evil vision as truth. Margaret MacDonald had these visions, and she later stated that it was evil, but these preachers picked up on every word of her evil vision, and down through the years that "evil lie" has been honed or perfected, and polished into a tradition that much of the church world now believes in.I Thessalonians 4:15 "For this we say by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the time of the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them which are asleep."Like was stated before, in the Greek it states that there is no one that is alive at the Lord's coming that will precede them that are already with Him. If each soul goes back to the Father at death, then there is no way that those souls are still in the ground to be here when Jesus returns. Why? They are already there with Him. I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"This seventh trumpet is the trumpet of God and the other trumpets are the soundings angels of God, sounding out the event of the six trumpets dealing with deceptions by Satan. The trumpet is announcing that something is about to happen before that event comes into operation. The seventh trumpet announces that God has had enough of this age of the flesh, and the new kingdom is about to begin. The dead in Christ shall rise first for they are already with Him. Their soul went immediately to be with the Father when they breathed their last breathe of life in their flesh body. That can't be that hard to understand. In verse fifty Paul said "I want to show you a mystery", and here Paul is saying, "I don't want you to be ignorant"; are you? I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."In Hebrews 12:1; "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us." This is the same Greek usage of the word "cloud" that he spoke in I Thessalonians 4:17. The clouds that Paul is speaking of is that we are going to gather in one large family. Joel talked of a cloud of locust, only here we are talking about a cloud of Christians. The "air" as given here is not "pneuma" or sky, but from "aemi" in the Greek, # 109 in the Strong's, and it means the "breath of life" or your "spiritual body". This is exactly what is said in I Corinthians 15:51, for we are all going to change in an instant into our "breath of life", or "spiritual bodies", to meet the Lord at His arrival at the seventh and last trumpet. Each of us that lives in the flesh bodies at the time of the "day of the Lord", at the seventh trumpet are going to greet the coming of Jesus in our spiritual bodies. Don't get carried away with the fairy-tales of the church world today, or you will have sealed your fate with "the mark of the beast". When some preacher tells you that you do not have to study Revelation or some other part of God's Word, they are trying to seal your mind into taking the mark of the beast. There is a "sealing" time coming and it is going on right now. We are living in the final generation which started with the Jews reestablished their homeland.Revelation 9:4 "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."This is the instructions that God is giving to Satan and his fallen angels when they are coming to this earth. Your "mind" is in your forehead, and "to be sealed" is what you put in your mind that prepares you for what is coming. If you think in your mind that the rapture is true, than you have taken a lie, or "seal" of Satan the beast, and sealed your mind with his mark. However if you have the plan of the entire Word of God in your mind then you know that you will never see Jesus Christ in the flesh, but the one claiming to be Christ is the fake Satan, in the role of Antichrist. You need the entire Word of God to protect you, for in it are all the events that allow you to keep yourself from being deceived by the many false winds of doctrine that are going around today. We will live the entire Millennium age of Christ's kingdom right here on earth in our spiritual body. Jesus is coming back to earth to stay at the seventh trumpet, and He is not leaving. If you are saved under the blood of Christ, you will never leave or be separated again from Him, ever. Those that don't make it will be turned to ashes after the Judgment.
  2. Terral

    Terral New Member

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    Hi N2thelight (N2):
    No sir! You just violated Vine’s first rule concerning “musterion” presented in Post #14 of this thread.http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vi...n.pl?num=1884#1
    God hides “His Hidden Wisdom” (1 Corinthians 2:6-8) in PLAIN SIGHT and decides for Himself ‘when’ each member of Christ’s body will grow into the knowledge and wisdom of these things in a sowing (seeds of faith), watering (shoots of knowledge) and harvesting (fruit = wisdom) process where your soul represents the fertile or stony ground. All I have is ‘seeds’ and perhaps another must come among and ‘water,’ so God can ‘then’ cause the growth.
    The members of Christ’s body posting on this fine Bible Board represent God’s field where I have just started sowing these “The Mystery” (Ephesians 3:3) ‘seeds,’ so that perhaps God will cause the growth. This Rapture Topic is just one of many connected directly to the “revelation of THE MYSTERY” (1 Corinthians 15:51), just like our Gospel (Romans 16:25) and our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32).
    We most certainly disagree. “Our” mystery gathering to the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) is for ‘believers only,’ and for those of us “IN Christ Jesus” by obeying our Gospel.
    No sir. Paul says “we (body of Christ) will be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:52), which has nothing to do with unbelievers destined to something else. “We” are joined with the ‘dead IN Christ,’ as in “the dead IN Christ will rise first” (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Only the believers in our gospel are “Sealed IN Him” (Ephesians 1:13) for “the day of redemption” (Ephesians 4:30).
    All I see here is unsupported statement after unsupported statement with no Scriptural basis in reality whatsoever. There is nothing about our physical bodies being “done away with,” which is man-made dogma taken out of thin air. Your physical ‘water witness’ mortal body SHALL BE CHANGED (1 Corinthians 15:52), when joined with the ‘spirit witness’ angelic half seated right now in the ‘heavens’ waiting in anticipation of being reunited with his lesser half.
    You are mistakenly giving immortality to the whole wide world, when this ‘mystery’ event is reserved ONLY for the members of Christ’s body (1 Corinthians 12:27 = that’s us) for some unknown reason.
    No sir. You are mixing together the “Prophetic” trumpets of Revelation with our “trumpet” (1 Corinthians 15:52 , 1 Thessalonians 4:16) sounding off “behind” John in Revelation 1:10 AND making the same mistake as those blinded by Denominationalism the “mystery of Iniquity” (2 Thessalonians 2:7). Please try to prove Christ returns to set up any temporary 1000 year kingdom ON THIS EARTH using Scripture. Good Luck, because nothing like that exists in your Bible anywhere. Christ told Pilate that His kingdom is NOT of this world or even of this realm (John 18:36), but we (body of Christ) are brought safely to “His HEAVENLY Kingdom.”
    I can give you a dozen arguments supported by God’s Living Word proving beyond all doubt that Christ is about to take His Seat far above this Creation (Hebrews 8:1-2) in the “true tabernacle,” but that is the Topic of another thread and debate.
    Once again your feeble arguments are supported by NOTHING in Scripture and this side of the debate has seen all these MYTHS (2 Timothy 4:3-4) more times than anyone here can number. Please start a thread on Christ’s Temporary 1000 Year Earthly Kingdom using Scripture and we can hash out our differences before these readers and judges.
    Now the 1000 Year Temporary Kingdom on Earth (heh) has become a Millennium Age, which is yet another MYTH spread by those blinded by Dispensationalist Dogma. The members of Christ’s body “Dead IN Christ” are people just like us that died over the past 2000 years, AFTER hearing (Romans 10:17) and believing (Ephesians 1:13-14) our Gospel.
    None of your fantasy is supported by Scripture, because nothing you say has any basis in God’s Word at all. You have the whole wide world translated to immortality, when our mystery gathering to the Lord is ONLY for believers in our Gospel. You have Christ coming down to sit on an earthly throne (NOT), when Scripture says His Seat is above in heaven:
    Where is the part about Christ coming down to sit on an earthy throne? :0) Since when is “His HEAVENLY Kingdom” one on this earth? :0) Scripture says my citizenship is “IN HEAVEN” (Philippians 3:20), but you say Christ is returning to this earth to set up a temporary kingdom. Okay. So what causes that earthly kingdom TO END? :0) Christ is seen returning on the clouds at the END of the Age (Matthew 24:3-31), before He judges the Living (Matthew 25:31-33) and the dead (Revelation 20:11-15). By that time the 1000 Year Day of the Lord WILL BE OVER, as the restored Temple (Ezekiel 40 +) was already defiled by the Antichrist (Matthew 24:15), before Christ ever even returned. Perhaps you fail to realize that God raised Christ from the dead (Romans 10:9) to seat Him “far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.” Ephesians 4:10. Your version of the story says Christ is returning to this earth to sit on an earthly throne, when Scripture proves you wrong at every turn.
    This is nothing but utter NONSENSE, as no sixth or seventh trumpet is ever mentioned by the Apostle Paul anywhere. You have run to Revelation and gathered doctrinal precepts of PROPHECY to then mix that into Paul’s “revelation of THE MYSTERY” without any clue about the VAST difference. Again, our trumpet sounds off “behind” John in Revelation 1:10 and this side of the debate is betting the house that your theology has no explanation for what that trumpet even means. Right? Of course. :0)
    Please forgive, but you are drawing conclusions from NONSENSE apart from supporting anything from God’s Living Word.
    No sir. Let’s not. You quoted a tiny part from one of my posts to begin this grandstanding Mythological charade, about Jesus returning to set up a temporary 1000 Year kingdom on this earth, but thank you anyway.In Christ Jesus,Terral
  3. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    No sir! You just violated Vine’s first rule concerning “musterion” presented in Post #14 of this thread
    Don't know who Vine is and don't really care I follow the word no man,and what Paul just said was that he was going to show me the mystery.Will address your post shortly but let me ask you,where are the dead now?