James Was Not Talking about Faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation

[praise_yeshua]

Since faith is obedience.
Obedience is work.
Therefore faith and works save.

There is no work involved in believe in the work of another. Faith is not works and never will be a work. Your statement is contrary to Scripture.

Faith alone salvation excludes obedience.
Obedience only exists when we keep commandments.
Obeying the commandments of Jesus' gospel is how one is saved.
Faith is a commandment that must be obeyed, 1John 3:23-24.

False Gospel.....

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Sure. Jesus Christ commands faith. Nothing more.

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Sure. Jesus Christ demands faith and love. Why can't you leave it at that?

Gods grace is conditional.

Facets of it are. There would be nothing without Grace. God is gracious to unbelievers.

God has prerequisites in His gospel.
One of the prerequisites in Jesus' gospel is to obey the commandment to believe in Jesus Christ.
Therefore When we obey Gods commandments we are doing a work of obedience.
This is not a work of man, but a work of God.

The work of God is to establish something to believe in. Man is not involved in any such work. Faith in the work of God is not work itself. It is trusting the work of another.

John 6:28-29,
Then they said to Him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

Now, this proves that faith is a commandment 1John 3:23-24.
And it is a work of God that we do, John 6:28-29,

No work for man involved.

-Therefore we are saved by a faith that has works, James 2:24,
-Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone?

No. James is wrong. Faith alone.

James pointed to an event 25 plus years after Abraham was both justified and sanctified.
James appealed to trembling demons when demons were not redeemed through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Jesus died for humanity. Not demons. James is rather silly to use such an example. We have a table to eat. Demons do not. They have no hope. James is ridiculous in defense of his error.

 

[Titus]

There is no work involved in believe in the work of another. Faith is not works and never will be a work. Your statement is contrary to Scripture.



False Gospel.....

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Sure. Jesus Christ commands faith. Nothing more.

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Sure. Jesus Christ demands faith and love. Why can't you leave it at that?



Facets of it are. There would be nothing without Grace. God is gracious to unbelievers.



The work of God is to establish something to believe in. Man is not involved in any such work. Faith in the work of God is not work itself. It is trusting the work of another.



No work for man involved.




No. James is wrong. Faith alone.

James pointed to an event 25 plus years after Abraham was both justified and sanctified.
James appealed to trembling demons when demons were not redeemed through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Jesus died for humanity. Not demons. James is rather silly to use such an example. We have a table to eat. Demons do not. They have no hope. James is ridiculous in defense of his error.

Explain how you can claim there is zero works of obedience to be saved,
When in order to be saved we must obey Gods commandment to believe in Jesus Christ,
1John 3:23-24.
Fact: we must obey this commandment to saved.
Therefore faith is an act of obedience.
Obeying Gods commandments requires obedient work.

John 6:28-29
Jesus taught that faith is a work of God.
God said faith is His work.
Faith is a work

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life: and he who does not obey the Son shall not see life,
but the wrath of God abides on him.

Sir,
Explain how we obey the commandment to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23-24,
But according to you, do not do a work.

How can we obey commandments and there be no work involved ?
It is impossible to obey Gods commandments without doing a work.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Explain how you can claim there is zero works of obedience to be saved,
When in order to be saved we must obey Gods commandment to believe in Jesus Christ,
1John 3:23-24.
Fact: we must obey this commandment to saved.

Faith. Which isn't an work.

Therefore faith is an act of obedience.

Absolutely.

Obeying Gods commandments requires obedient work.

Faith is believing. No work involved. It is trusting the work of another. You're the one falsely claiming that obedience is a work.

Explain how believing in the work of Jesus Christ is work of our own? You're conflating. Faith is never more than believing God. Which is the horrible mistake of Arminianism. You MAKE FAITH MERITORIOUS when it is not.

John 6:28-29
Jesus taught that faith is a work of God.
God said faith is His work.
Faith is a work

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Jesus corrected their mistake. They wanted to earn what God was doing. Just like you want to earn what God alone did. Jesus corrected their mistake. He told them that it is the "WORK OF GOD" that they believe upon Him. There would be nothing to believe it were it not for the Atoning work of Jesus Christ.

Your ignoring my reference to

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I know why. If destroys your false narrative/lie.

Sir,
Explain how we obey the commandment to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23-24,
But according to you, do not do a work.

How can we obey commandments and there be no work involved ?
It is impossible to obey Gods commandments without doing a work.

You don't have to call me sir. I don't need nor desire such. I'm just a man. I'm not better nor worse than any other man.

Believing God requires no work whatsoever on our part. It is nothing more than a dying man crying out to God to save him. That man is incapable of helping himself. He relies upon the work of another.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Notice.... the lack of WORK referenced by Paul in Romans 4:5.

 

[Titus]

Faith. Which isn't an work.



Absolutely.



Faith is believing. No work involved. It is trusting the work of another. You're the one falsely claiming that obedience is a work.

Explain how believing in the work of Jesus Christ is work of our own? You're conflating. Faith is never more than believing God. Which is the horrible mistake of Arminianism. You MAKE FAITH MERITORIOUS when it is not.



Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Jesus corrected their mistake. They wanted to earn what God was doing. Just like you want to earn what God alone did. Jesus corrected their mistake. He told them that it is the "WORK OF GOD" that they believe upon Him. There would be nothing to believe it were it not for the Atoning work of Jesus Christ.

Your ignoring my reference to

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I know why. If destroys your false narrative/lie.



You don't have to call me sir. I don't need nor desire such. I'm just a man. I'm not better nor worse than any other man.

Believing God requires no work whatsoever on our part. It is nothing more than a dying man crying out to God to save him. That man is incapable of helping himself. He relies upon the work of another.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Notice.... the lack of WORK referenced by Paul in Romans 4:5.

Thanks for responding,

I hope you will explain to me how obeying direct commandments are not works?

1John 3:23-24
And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him and He in him.
And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

We cannot be saved without obeying/keeping His commandments.

How is commandment keeping faith only?

Acts 10:35
But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

Works of righteousness is commandment obeying/keeping.

Psalm 119:172
My tongue shall speak of Your word,
For all Your commandments are righteousness.

To be saved without works, God must require no obedience to any commandments.
If just one commandment must be kept in order to be saved, then we are not saved by faith and no works.

I agree with you that faith is not a work of man.
Faith is a work of God though.

How can faith not be something that is required for our will.
If God does all the believing for us, as you teach.
Then why does God need to give us a command to believe in Him, 1John 3:23-24?

For example:
If I had the power to transfer my faith directly to someone else,
It would be totally unnecessary for me to command that person to believe.

They would believe based on what I am doing not on what they must do.

A commandment is an order.
You order someone to do something.
No one given a direct command has someone else do that direct order for them.
They must obey that command.

If God is giving you faith.
You are not following an order.
You are receiving what God has done for you.

Commandments do not work this way.

It is true God gives us faith.
But He has given All the ability to believe.
How?

By giving the world the gospel of Jesus Christ.
This is how man comes to faith in God.
Through the word of the gospel of Jesus Christ!

Romans 10:17,
So then faith comes by hearing,
And hearing by the word of God.

God works faith in us through the hearing, preaching, teaching of His gospel.

 

[Titus]

Your ignoring my reference to

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified

I know why. If destroys your false narrative/lie.

Works of the law in the book of Galatians is the old testament law of Moses.
No one today is to follow the law of Moses.
No one can be saved by the old covenant God made with the jews.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Thanks for responding,

I hope you will explain to me how obeying direct commandments are not works?

I already have. Belief/faith isn't a work. Relying upon the work of another, is not, itself, work at any level. I gave you an detailed answer. Don't ignore that fact.

We cannot be saved without obeying/keeping His commandments.

Which isn't work nor labor.

I'm going to stop right here because you're not dealing with what I have said in any meaningful manner. You're repeating yourself which requires that I repeat myself.

You are conflating faith and works. That is your mistake and "James's" mistake. Faith is not work. It doesn't matter how many ways you try to say it is. The Scriptures very clearly say that faith isn't work.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Titus]

I already have. Belief/faith isn't a work. Relying upon the work of another, is not, itself, work at any level. I gave you an detailed answer. Don't ignore that fact.



Which isn't work nor labor.

I'm going to stop right here because you're not dealing with what I have said in any meaningful manner. You're repeating yourself which requires that I repeat myself.

You are conflating faith and works. That is your mistake and "James's" mistake. Faith is not work. It doesn't matter how many ways you try to say it is. The Scriptures very clearly say that faith isn't work.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Alright,
Please explain to me why the book of James is in the Bible if it is error?
Do you think it should be removed?

 

[Titus]

I already have. Belief/faith isn't a work. Relying upon the work of another, is not, itself, work at any level. I gave you an detailed answer. Don't ignore that fact.



Which isn't work nor labor.

I'm going to stop right here because you're not dealing with what I have said in any meaningful manner. You're repeating yourself which requires that I repeat myself.

You are conflating faith and works. That is your mistake and "James's" mistake. Faith is not work. It doesn't matter how many ways you try to say it is. The Scriptures very clearly say that faith isn't work.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Please give the passage that teaches faith is not a work of God?

 

[Titus]

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified

Friend, these passages are teaching the old covenant law of Moses do not save.
They are not the commandments that must be obeyed in Jesus' gospel.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Works of the law in the book of Galatians is the old testament law of Moses.
No one today is to follow the law of Moses.
No one can be saved by the old covenant God made with the jews.

James appeals to the Torah. You can't possibly deny this. If you understand Jewish thought and teachings among the Torah, you can easily recognize the appeal of James to his audience. He appeals to Jews to not abandon the Torah but to fulfill the Torah by keeping its commandments. To the writer, keeping the Torah is keeping God's commandments. To a Jew, the law is liberating. The law isn't the means of recognizing their own failures and guilt. They see the law/Torah as establishing their righteousness. If you don't believe me, ask a Jew.

Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Romans and Galatians can never mix with "James".

 

[praise_yeshua]

Please give the passage that teaches faith is not a work of God?

I have given you several. There are plenty more but if you don't accept the ones I've given you, you will not accept others.

Give me a logical explanation of how believing/expressing faith in the work of another..... actually equates to a "work" yourself?

That is an oxymoron.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Friend, these passages are teaching the old covenant law of Moses do not save.
They are not the commandments that must be obeyed in Jesus' gospel.

I realize that you desperately want to prove yourself to others and you DEMAND that others be like yourself but I don't answer to your approval. I have One Master. Jesus Christ.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Did David "love" Uriah? Did David have righteousness in murdering Uriah? David should have been put to death. Yet, he was forgiven.

The same is true of YOU.

 

[Titus]

James appeals to the Torah. You can't possibly deny this. If you understand Jewish thought and teachings among the Torah, you can easily recognize the appeal of Jesus to his audience. He appeals to Jews to not abandon the Torah but to fulfill the Torah by keeping its commandments. To the writer, keeping the Torah is keeping God's commandments. To a Jew, the law is liberating. The law isn't the means of recognizing their own failures and guilt. They see the law/Torah as establishing their righteousness. If you don't believe me, ask a Jew.

Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Romans and Galatians can never mix with "James".

I agree with you, that they Jews believe that keeping the Mosaical law is where they receive salvation.

But where I cannot agree is that James is teaching the old covenant.

The verse you gave proves that James is teaching the new law of Jesus Christ ie His new covenant.

James 1::25
But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it and is not a forgetful hearer but a DOER of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
James is teaching the law of Christ, not the law of Moses.

Galatians 6:2
Bear one another's burdens, and so fullfil the law of Christ.

James 1:22
But be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
That word is the gospel of Jesus.

James teaches faith in Christ,
Is this not a truth statement from James?
James 5:19-20
Brethren if anyone among you wonders from the truth and someone turns him back,
Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Is James teaching error?

 

[Titus]

I realize that you desperately want to prove yourself to others and you DEMAND that others be like yourself

Are you saying it is ok for us not not believe alike?
Do you want me to believe what you believe?

1Corinthians 1:10
Now I plead with you brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you speak the same thing. And that there be no divisions among you, but that you all be perfectly joined in the same mind and in the same judgment.

 

[Titus]

I have given you several. There are plenty more but if you don't accept the ones I've given you, you will not accept others.

Give me a logical explanation of how believing/expressing faith in the work of another..... actually equates to a "work" yourself?

That is an oxymoron.

We must speak as the Bible speaks,

John 6:28-29
"How may we work the works of God?
Jesus says the work of God is that you believe in Me.

So, when we believe the gospel, we are working the works of God.

All of Gods commandments must be obeyed.
Not one of these commandments are works of men.
They all are works of God because He authorized them.

Faith is Gods work, for He authorized faith, not man.
Repentance is Gods work, for He authorized it, not man.
Confession is Gods work
Baptism is Gods work, Colossians 2:12

 

[praise_yeshua]

I agree with you, that they Jews believe that keeping the Mosaical law is where they receive salvation.

But where I cannot agree is that James is teaching the old covenant.

You're reject clear references to the law mediated through Moses. James appeals to the "law of liberty" in the Torah. There is no other references anywhere in the Scriptures that detail another other law than the Torah. There is only ONE LAW.

Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

This is clearly a reference to the Toran.

James teaches faith in Christ,
Is this not a truth statement from James?
James 5:19-20
Brethren if anyone among you wonders from the truth and someone turns him back,
Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Is James teaching error?

Yes. It is amazing how you're seeing something that isn't there.

"Conversion" is reference to becoming a prostyle to Judaism.

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

It is amazing how you're "grasping at straws"...... Those that appeal to Christ for conversion mention His name frequently and in all things. "James" only uses the good name of Jesus Christ to sell himself. Much like you're doing.

 

[Titus]

I am getting to understand you.
You are of the belief that we are not under law today,

You're reject clear references to the law mediated through Moses. James appeals to the "law of liberty" in the Torah. There is no other references anywhere in the Scriptures that detail another other law than the Torah. There is only ONE LAW.

Explain Paul's admonition that we are under law,
Galatians 6:2
Bear one another's burdens and so fullfil the law of Christ.

The law of liberty cannot be the Mosaical law.
You know the old law does ot set you free.
Do you think James being the brother of Jesus does not know His brothers gospel?

Hebrews 8:7
For if the first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

Do you really believe that James was not aware that the old covenant God made with the Jews was not perfect?

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

Do you believe James did not know the the old law put you under bondage?
Surely
James knew these things,
He was Jesus' brother.
He accepted His brother as the chosen Messiah
He preached faith in Christ!
James 1:1
James a bond servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Jews that held to the Torah never accepted and obeyed Jesus as their Messiah friend.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Are you saying it is ok for us not not believe alike?
Do you want me to believe what you believe?

1Corinthians 1:10
Now I plead with you brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you speak the same thing. And that there be no divisions among you, but that you all be perfectly joined in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Have you ever heard of the concept in the Scripture of "liberty"? Your "commandments" are just that. Your commandments. I'm not bound by what you believe are the commandments I.... should follow.

 

[Titus]

Have you ever heard of the concept in the Scripture of "liberty"? Your "commandments" are just that. Your commandments. I'm not bound by what you believe are the commandments I.... should follow.

Yes, that liberty is in Christs new covenant.

They are not my commandments,
I did not authorize them. God did.

James 1:25
But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it and is not a forgetful hearer...

Please explain to me how sin occurs today without anyone being under law?

 

[praise_yeshua]

We must speak as the Bible speaks,

John 6:28-29
"How may we work the works of God?
Jesus says the work of God is that you believe in Me.

So, when we believe the gospel, we are working the works of God.

That isn't even remotely true. Verse #29 clearly says it is the "work of God". You are ADDING to the Scriptures.

All of Gods commandments must be obeyed.
Not one of these commandments are works of men.
They all are works of God because He authorized them.

God gave them to control lawless humanity and to establish guilt in all of humanity. They were never made to establish righteousness.

When you look at the "law", you think you see liberty when in fact, YOU CONTINUALLY BREAK the law. You are a law breaker. Not a law "doer".

Faith is Gods work, for He authorized faith, not man.
Repentance is Gods work, for He authorized it, not man.
Confession is Gods work
Baptism is Gods work, Colossians 2:12

By all means. Show me the Scriptures that say such. I can read John 6:28. You don't have a "John 6:28" for your list.