Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false

[David in NJ]

There is not rebuttal to that. Who can survive?

At the Second Coming only those who are part of the MoB along with those who have rejected the Gospel will be consumed by fire.

Many have not rejected gospel because it has not been accurately declared to them = they remain in spiritual limbo.

God alone searches the hearts and weighs the intents and motives of a man.

Zechariah chapter 14 proclaims that God will retain some nations/peoples at His Second Coming = as does Revelation

 

[WPM]

At the Second Coming only those who are part of the MoB along with those who have rejected the Gospel will be consumed by fire.

Many have not rejected gospel because it has not been accurately declared to them = they remain in spiritual limbo.

God alone searches the hearts and weighs the intents and motives of a man.

Zechariah chapter 14 proclaims that God will retain some nations/peoples at His Second Coming = as does Revelation

That is simply not true. Where does Scripture teach that? Mankind is split into two. Premillennialists do all types of theological gymnastics to negate that. Men are either saved or lost, righteous or unrighteous, sheep, or goats, wheat or tares. There is no in between. They will either be caught up or caught on when Jesus comes. No wicked survive His return.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 declares: “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

What unregenerate man is excluded from the description of "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1:8)?

 

[WPM]

@Scott Downey

Good Morning

Dwell on this =
When the LORD Returns, He is returning to FIGHT with His angels = Zech ch14 & 2 Thess ch1 & ch2 & Revelation ch19

Therefore, a literal 1,000 Year Reign will be Established by the LORD at His Second Coming

SHALOM

Premils cannot even correlate Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20, never mind rebut the multiple Scriptures they duck around that show a climactic return of Christ. Thankfully, this will spell the end of sin and sinners, dying and crying, disease and decay, corruption and crime, riots and rebellion, war and terror and Satan and his minions. It is time to come clean!

Zechariah 14 doesn't even correlate or support any on the main tenants of Revelation 20.

Premillennialists have a habit of explaining away the clear and explicit New Testament passages with the vague and more-challenging Old Testament passages. This is horrible hermeneutics. That is because, because of their obscure nature, they’re able to translate them to mean whatever they want them to be. It is the same with the book of Revelation. That is where Premillennialists mainly pitch their tent. They have to!

I am sure we could all agree (if we are honest), Zechariah 14 isn't the clearest of prophetic passages. Like many scriptural texts, it is written in a very disjoined manner at times. It seems to mix literal and figurative detail.

Zechariah 14 was written 500 years or so before Christ. While the Old Testament prophets were anticipating the Messiah, they did not have a full grasp on the nature of his earthly ministry and New Testament events. In fact, they looked through an obscure glass. They also didn’t have a clear picture of the distinction between the first coming on the second coming. Much of Zechariah's writing is obscure and shrouded in figurative terms and old covenant vernacular. Thankfully today, we have the benefit of the New Testament that helps us dissect many of these Old Testament passages. What was vague and indistinct in the old is clear and explicit in the New Testament account.

 

[David in NJ]

That is simply not true. Where does Scripture teach that? Mankind is split into two. Premillennialists do all types of theological gymnastics to negate that. Men are either saved or lost, righteous or unrighteous, sheep, or goats, wheat or tares. There is no in between. They will either be caught up or caught on when Jesus comes. No wicked survive His return.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 declares: “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

What unregenerate man is excluded from the description of "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1:8)?

Mankind is split into FOUR
1.) those who hear and are SAVED
2.) those who hear but reject = parable of the sower
3.) those who have not heard
4.) those whom the FATHER will call

Read carefully the Gospel and 2 Thessalonians

 

[David in NJ]

Premils cannot even correlate Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20, never mind rebut the multiple Scriptures they duck around that show a climactic return of Christ. Thankfully, this will spell the end of sin and sinners, dying and crying, disease and decay, corruption and crime, riots and rebellion, war and terror and Satan and his minions. It is time to come clean!

Zechariah 14 doesn't even correlate or support any on the main tenants of Revelation 20.

Premillennialists have a habit of explaining away the clear and explicit New Testament passages with the vague and more-challenging Old Testament passages. This is horrible hermeneutics. That is because, because of their obscure nature, they’re able to translate them to mean whatever they want them to be. It is the same with the book of Revelation. That is where Premillennialists mainly pitch their tent. They have to!

I am sure we could all agree (if we are honest), Zechariah 14 isn't the clearest of prophetic passages. Like many scriptural texts, it is written in a very disjoined manner at times. It seems to mix literal and figurative detail.

Zechariah 14 was written 500 years or so before Christ. While the Old Testament prophets were anticipating the Messiah, they did not have a full grasp on the nature of his earthly ministry and New Testament events. In fact, they looked through an obscure glass. They also didn’t have a clear picture of the distinction between the first coming on the second coming. Much of Zechariah's writing is obscure and shrouded in figurative terms and old covenant vernacular. Thankfully today, we have the benefit of the New Testament that helps us dissect many of these Old Testament passages. What was vague and indistinct in the old is clear and explicit in the New Testament account.

The Holy Spirit has already correlated Zechariah ch14 to Revelation

Refusal/Unbelief only leaves a person with misunderstanding of the Entire Picture of Scripture

 

[Scott Downey]

At the Second Coming only those who are part of the MoB along with those who have rejected the Gospel will be consumed by fire.

Many have not rejected gospel because it has not been accurately declared to them = they remain in spiritual limbo.

God alone searches the hearts and weighs the intents and motives of a man.

Zechariah chapter 14 proclaims that God will retain some nations/peoples at His Second Coming = as does Revelation

That is unscriptural. I highlight the error.
It is not just those who do not obey the gospel who are destroyed, as in those who may have heard it.

Sins done in ignorance under the OC, still required a sacrificial offering.
Sin is sin.
The soul that sins shall die

Ezekiel 18
4“Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.

The below is truth.
2 Thess 1
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

 

[Scott Downey]

Some do not understand the terrible consequence of sin in a person's life, it brings death in the Lake of Fire at the end.
Only if you are in Christ is your sin forgiven.

If you are not OF GOD, you are ungodly. Makes sense. And you will not hear God.
Psalm 1:5
Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

 

[Scott Downey]

Those who are OF GOD, are born of God.
They are saved, and considered righteous.

This idea of some middle ground spiritually is wisdom of this world.

 

[WPM]

Mankind is split into FOUR
1.) those who hear and are SAVED
2.) those who hear but reject = parable of the sower
3.) those who have not heard
4.) those whom the FATHER will call

Read carefully the Gospel and 2 Thessalonians

No. That is manipulating Scripture to support your beliefs. With that type of ad-hoc rational you could potentially invent 153 different religious groups. Frankly, it is ridiculous. It is unbiblical. Men are either saved or not. Those who are not born again are classed as ungodly, are of their father the devil and are on their way to hell.

John the Baptist said in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

Jesus said in Luke 9:48, “whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me.”

Jesus said in Matthew 12:30, “He that is not with me is against me.”

1 John 5:12: “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”

 

[WPM]

The Holy Spirit has already correlated Zechariah ch14 to Revelation

Refusal/Unbelief only leaves a person with misunderstanding of the Entire Picture of Scripture

LOL. I'll take that as an admission that you have nothing. The rest of us know that they do not correlate. Why can you not just be honest?

 

[Scott Downey]

Hebrews 8, here is how God defines His people.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins [b]and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

Hebrews 10 and the remission of sin is only for the people of God.

Christ’s Death Perfects the Sanctified​

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being [d]sanctified.

15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is [e]remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

 

[David in NJ]

That is unscriptural. I highlight the error.
It is not just those who do not obey the gospel who are destroyed, as in those who may have heard it.

Sins done in ignorance under the OC, still required a sacrificial offering.
Sin is sin.
The soul that sins shall die

Ezekiel 18
4“Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.

The below is truth.
2 Thess 1
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

a.) on those who do not know God,
b.) and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The LORD has given us the definitions and qualifications of "those who do not know God"

The LORD has also given us the definitions and qualifications of "those who do not obey the gospel"

The LORD alone searches the hearts and intents.

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.

 

[David in NJ]

LOL. I'll take that as an admission that you have nothing. The rest of us know that they do not correlate. Why can you not just be honest?

LOL = i'll take this as admitting you lack understanding!!!

 

[Scott Downey]

a.) on those who do not know God,
b.) and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The LORD has given us the definitions and qualifications of "those who do not know God"

The LORD has also given us the definitions and qualifications of "those who do not obey the gospel"

The LORD alone searches the hearts and intents.

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.

Your interpretation is fake news

What did Adam and Eve do after being confronted with their sins by God?
They passed the blame defending themselves accusing another.

God is not fooled by them or you either.
What you just said negates the need for the death of Christ on the cross.

 

[Scott Downey]

LOL = i'll take this as admitting you lack understanding!!!

David is preaching another gospel.

 

[WPM]

LOL = i'll take this as admitting you lack understanding!!!

Premils have nothing of evidential worth to bring to the table. If they had, they would bring it. All they have is their own theological statements.

Zechariah 14:16-21 says, “And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.”

Strangers/uncircumcised are prohibited here from Jerusalem and the temple! Egypt is alive and kicking! The Gentiles that come to Christ know salvation, peace, freedom, joy and blessing. Those who refuse experience judgment, misery, wrath, destruction and are cursed. Simple! That is the Gospel!

Zechariah 14 presents more questions and problems for Premil than it creates answers; none more so than confirming the identity and quality of mortal that will inherit the Premil millennial earth. Whilst Premil tries to depict the millennial mortals as righteous or righteous-leaning individuals their support texts present a contrary picture. The mortals that are welcomed onto the new earth in the Premil paradigm are those in Zechariah 14:16-21 who are described as “the families of the earth” who are “left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem.” These are clearly the basest of men that were involved and committed to the destruction of Jerusalem and the cause of God before being ushered into the Premil new earth.

The passage above shows that it will be mandatory for representatives of all the nations to attend the Feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem every year. If a nation doesn't attend, they will suffer drought.

 

[WPM]

Mankind is split into FOUR
1.) those who hear and are SAVED
2.) those who hear but reject = parable of the sower
3.) those who have not heard
4.) those whom the FATHER will call

Read carefully the Gospel and 2 Thessalonians

I Thessalonians 5:2-3: “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

Paul says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day” (II Thessalonians 1:7-10).

How can the wicked survive this? It is impossible! What unsaved person is exempt from this description “them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ”?

Amillennialists take these literally! Premillennialists are forced to spiritualize these away. This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! There are no goats left to enter into the supposed Premil future millennium!!!

 

[Scott Downey]

Here are the only people who know God.
Only the sheep of Christ know God.
Christ has other sheep and He will go and get them.

If you are not a sheep or foreknown sheep who will believe, you do not know God.


John 10
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.

Jesus the Good Shepherd​

7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came [a]before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a [b]hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

19 Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings. 20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is [c]mad. Why do you listen to Him?”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
v16, these other foreknown sheep are people who will believe in the future. As God knows they are His, but they don't know it yet, but they will know Him before they die.

 

[Scott Downey]

The Shepherd Knows His Sheep​

22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in [d]doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, [e]as I said to you.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

30 I and My Father are one.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Only the sheep never perish

Not a sheep of Christ? then you do not know God, you perish.

John 3

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Scott Downey]

When Christ returns it is Judgment DAY. Some do not seem to realize that.
There is no more evangelizing of the unbelieving who do not know God.

Mark 4​

The Purpose of Parables​

10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the [d]mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that

‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’ ”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 12

Who Has Believed Our Report?​

37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said [f]when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

Bible Gateway passage: Mark 4 - New King James Version

The Parable of the Sower - And again He began to teach by the sea. And a great multitude was gathered to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat in it on the sea; and the whole multitude was on the land facing the sea. Then He taught them many things by parables, and said to them in His...

www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: John 12 - New King James Version

The Anointing at Bethany - Then, six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus was who had been dead, whom He had raised from the dead. There they made Him a supper; and Martha served, but Lazarus was one of those who sat at the table with Him. Then Mary took a pound of very...

www.biblegateway.com