Jesus crucified and resurrected ?

[Boaz]

 

[rstrats]

Mungo,
re: "The point is that part of a day was still called a day...If I start painting a room on Friday afternoon, and carry on all Saturday, then start again on Sunday morning I might say to someone I've been painting this room for three days now."


But what if you started painting a room on Friday afternoon, and carried on all Saturday, then started again on Sunday morning and you said to someone that you've been painting the room for three days and three nights? Wouldn't you expect that person to think that at least a portion of each of the three nights would have to have been involved?

 

[Mungo]

Mungo,
re: "The point is that part of a day was still called a day...If I start painting a room on Friday afternoon, and carry on all Saturday, then start again on Sunday morning I might say to someone I've been painting this room for three days now."


But what if you started painting a room on Friday afternoon, and carried on all Saturday, then started again on Sunday morning and you said to someone that you've been painting the room for three days and three nights? Wouldn't you expect that person to think that at least a portion of each of the three nights would have to have been involved?

No, because "three days and three nights" is just a Jewish idiom.for three days. It's only our western literalist mindeset that tries to take it literally.

 

[rstrats]

Mungo,
re: "No, because 'three days and three nights' is just a Jewish idiom for three days."


But how do you know that it is a Jewish idiom where three nights actually means two nights?

What examples from the first century or before do you have that show a period of time which is said to consist of a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights where the period absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights?

 

[Mungo]

Mungo,
re: "No, because 'three days and three nights' is just a Jewish idiom for three days."


But how do you know that it is a Jewish idiom where three nights actually means two nights?

What examples from the first century or before do you have that show a period of time which is said to consist of a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights where the period absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights?

"Three days and three nights" is a Hebrew idiom that the Greek of Matthew 12:40 follows. Concerning this idiom, a near contemporary of Jesus, Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah (circa A.D. 100), said, "A day and a night make an ’onah [a twenty-four hour period], and the portion of an ’onah is reckoned as a complete ’onah."[7] In Hebrew, then, a portion of a day could be counted as a complete day. As R. T. France writes, "Three days and three nights was a Jewish idiom appropriate to a period covering only two nights."[8] Numerous commentators support this position. Although written in Greek, Matthew 12:40 expresses the Hebrew idiom—"three days and three nights"—that was understood by the Jews listening to Jesus to mean one full day and portions of two others with the intervening nights.

You can read the whole argument here is you want to. http://www.wordofhisgrace.org/3days.htm

 

[rstrats]

Mungo,
re: "...Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah (circa A.D. 100), said, 'A day and a night make an ’onah [a twenty-four hour period], and the portion of an ’onah is reckoned as a complete ’onah.'"


That quote by Rabbi Eliezar Ben Azariah, is contradicted by Rabbi Ismael, Rabbi Jochanan, and Rabbi Akiba (contemporaries of Azariah) who all agree that an onah was 12 hours long, either a day OR a night. "Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica".

And the definition of Onah from "The Jerusalem Center for Advanced Torah Study":
"The word onah literally means 'time period.' In the context of the laws of niddah, it usually refers to a day or a night. Each 24-hour day thus consists of two onot. The daytime onah begins at sunrise (henetz hachamah, commonly called netz) and ends at sunset (shekiat hachamah or shekiah). The night-time onah lasts from sunset until sunrise."

As regards the Jewish practice of counting any part of a day as a whole day I would agree, but when "nights" is added to "days" to yield the phrase "X days AND/OR X nights" it normally refers to a measurement of a consecutive time period where "day" refers to the light portion of a 24 hour period and "night" refers to the dark portion of a 24 hour period. No one In the history of apologetics as far as I know has ever presented any historical documentation that the phrase "X days AND X nights" was a unique first century idiom of Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek which could mean something different than what the phrase means in English.. Again, if you have any actual examples of writing that absolutely shows that usage, I would very much like to see them.

 

[Webers_Home]

-
I suggest that the best way to begin sleuthing the chronology of Christ's
crucifixion and resurrection is to first define what constituters a Day and
what constitutes a Night. The creator does this for us so it's a no-brainer.

†. Gen 1:3-5 . . And God said: Let there be light-- and there was light. God
saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness.
God called the light Day and the darkness He called Night.

In essence: Day and Night simply label two physical conditions-- the
absence of light, and/or the absence of darkness. Labeling those physical
conditions may seem like a superfluous detail, but when analyzing crucifixion
week in the New Testament, it's essential to keep those physical conditions
separate in regards to the Lord's burial and resurrection if one is to have any
hope of deducing the correct chronology.

†. Gen 1:14-18 . . God said: Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to
separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark
seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the
sky to give light on the earth. And it was so. God made two great lights--
the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night.
He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light
on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from
darkness.

On the first day; God decreed Day as a condition of light; and Night as a
condition of darkness. Then in Gen 1:14-18, He further decreed that days on
the earth are when the sun is up; and nights on the earth are when the sun
is down. These rules occur so early in the Bible that they easily escape the
memories of Bible students as they slip into the reflexive habit of always
thinking of days as astronomical events consisting of one earth rotation of
24 hours. That's okay for calendars but can lead to gross misunderstandings
when interpreting biblical schedules, predictions, and/or chronologies.

†. John 11:9 . . Jesus answered: are there not twelve hours in the day? A
man who walks by day will not stumble, for he sees by this world's light.

Days divided into twelve equal periods of sunlight were regulated by what's
known as temporal hours; which vary in length in accordance with the time
of year. There are times of the year at Jerusalem's latitude when days on
earth consist of less than 12 normal hours of daylight, and sometimes more;
but when Jesus was here; the official number of hours was always 12
regardless. I don't exactly know why the Jews of that era divided their days
into twelve equal periods of sunlight regardless of the seasons, but I suspect
it was just a convenient way to operate the government and conduct civil
affairs; including the Temple's activities (e.g. the daily morning and evening
sacrifices)

†. Jon 1:17 . . And the Lord appointed a great fish to swallow Jonah, and
Jonah was in the stomach of the fish three days and three nights.

†. Matt 12:40 . . Just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly
of the sea monster, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights
in the heart of the earth.

In order to avoid confusion in regards to Matt 12:40 and Jon 1:17; I highly
recommend working with the 12-hour days that Christ mentioned in his
statement at John 11:9.

I also highly recommend working with the definitions of Day and Night that
God decreed as per Gen 1:3-5 and Gen 1:14-18; viz: let Day be daytime
and Night be nighttime; viz: Days are when the sun is up, and Nights are
when the sun is down.

======================================

 

[Mungo]

-
I suggest that the best way to begin sleuthing the chronology of Christ's
crucifixion and resurrection is to first define what constituters a Day and
what constitutes a Night. The creator does this for us so it's a no-brainer.

†. Gen 1:3-5 . . And God said: Let there be light-- and there was light. God
saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness.
God called the light Day and the darkness He called Night.

You missed a bit out of Gen 1:5
[SIZE=12pt]God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” Thus evening came, and morning followed—the first day.[/SIZE]

vs 6 "........[SIZE=12pt]Evening came, and morning followed—the second day.[/SIZE]"
vs 13 "[SIZE=12pt]Evening came, and morning followed—the third day."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]vs 19 "Evening came, and morning followed—the fourth day"[/SIZE]
vs 23 "[SIZE=12pt]Evening came, and morning followed—the fifth day"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]vs 28 "....Evening came, and morning followed—the sixth day."[/SIZE]

The Bible here treats the cycle of daytime and nightime to the morning as a Day

 

[Webers_Home]

-

Evening came, and morning followed

A normal chronology of evening and morning delineates night. However,
according to Gen 1:5, Gen 1:8, Gen 1:13, Gen 1:19, Gen 1:23, and Gen
1:31, evening and morning delineate day.

The Hebrew word for "evening" is ambiguous. It essentially means twilight.
However, there is no specific word for "afternoon" in the Bible, so sometimes
the Hebrew word for evening suffices for the hours between high noon and
sundown. Conversely, the Hebrew word for morning suffices for the hours
between sunrise and high noon; so that the combo "evening and morning"
used like that, delineate the hours of daytime rather than nighttime.

You can avoid the confusion by sticking with God's edicts at Gen 1:3-5 and
Gen 1:14-18 that Day is when the sun is up and Night is when the sun is
down. You can further avoid confusion by sticking with John 11:9 where
Christ's statement limits Days to periods of sunlight; and seeing as
how the predictions recorded at Matt 12:40 and John 2:19-22 are his
statements too, then I suggest we go with what he said at John 11:9 and
define the days of those predictions as periods of sunlight.

======================================

 

[Mungo]

-

A normal chronology of evening and morning delineates night. However,
according to Gen 1:5, Gen 1:8, Gen 1:13, Gen 1:19, Gen 1:23, and Gen
1:31, evening and morning delineate day.

The Hebrew word for "evening" is ambiguous. It essentially means twilight.
However, there is no specific word for "afternoon" in the Bible, so sometimes
the Hebrew word for evening suffices for the hours between high noon and
sundown. Conversely, the Hebrew word for morning suffices for the hours
between sunrise and high noon; so that the combo "evening and morning"
used like that, delineate the hours of daytime rather than nighttime.

You can avoid the confusion by sticking with God's edicts at Gen 1:3-5 and
Gen 1:14-18 that Day is when the sun is up and Night is when the sun is
down. You can further avoid confusion by sticking with John 11:9 where
Christ's statement limits Days to 12-hour periods of sunlight; and seeing as
how the predictions recorded at Matt 12:40 and John 2:19-22 are his
statements too, then I suggest we go with what he said at John 11:9 and
define their days as 12-hour periods of sunlight.

======================================

I see. When Genesis disproves your theory, all of a sudden we should stick to the New Testament. Hmmm!