Jesus died for you but you don't have to do anything for Him?

[soupy]

Maybe you could tell us why you did post the OP.
If you just threw them out for thought why did you say,
"If we can't answer yes to all of these questions then we are failing as a people."

What do you mean by this?

What is your doctrine, why do you find it necessary to be mysterious about it?

What is your goal?

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

They aren't rules I've made. There simply a few things i tossed out to make people think on. But fair enough.

What is not fair is for you to accuse me of being a denomination of which I am not apart of or a member of. That is where you stepped into the wrong and what this contributes to is a lack fo understanding and misperceptions about me that are unfair and that you have caused.

Ok ..... sorry ...... I have all the JW books in my library ...... including some extremely rare (unaltered) ones from the 1920's ..... and some of your terminology is word for word JW literature ... so that is why I made the assumption .... I am glad you are not JW .... they hooked my mom in the 1970's and it took 35 years before God brought her to Christ.

Best wishes.

 

[Rach1370]

Did you cleanse your thoughts, stop cursing others, judging them unfairly, criticising without basis?

I certainly try, but am hardly perfect. Besides, I know that scripture tells me that without the Spirit's help, I can't do anything good anyway. So I strive, and pray for constant help in these matters. The joy I get when the Spirit does prod me along covers the sometimes frustration of not moving faster!

Did you receive His messengers?

Not exactly sure what you mean here. The Spirit has certainly been received...and through his help the scriptures are being understood. I listen to my pastor and those who are teaching in Jesus' name, clearly preaching the truth of scripture. And I also strive to be guided by the godly people in my life. Is that what you mean?

Did you read the Word and take it to heart?

Yes...I love the word of God. I probably need to read it more, but then when I find the time to do that, I also find that I take too much in, and can't really meditate on it as well!
I love knowing that everything I read is not just intended for the audience when it was written...it's God teaching me and growing me now!

Did you give up pork like His Father asked?

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with this. God asked the OT Israelites to give up pork etc. In the NT, under the new Covenant of Christ, who fulfilled the ritual cleanliness laws completely by his perfect life and death, I am now free of any such need. In fact scripture also tells me that I needn't let others tell me I must steer clear of pork.

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17 ESV)

Any of the writings of Paul confirm these things. If I was truly required to give up pork, it would not be a problem. But the simple fact is that the bible tells me again and again that I am free in what I eat and what day I worship. So with all respect, I am disinclined to listen to people who say differently.

Do you pay tithes?

Yes. I do not tithe 10%, or whatever the OT requirements are. Again, the NT teaches that when the Pharisees stuck to this down to the tithing of their spices, they totally missed the point. The point being...Jesus, and the furthering of his gospel. That takes money...so I give freely what I can to further his work.

Do you study to show yourself approved?

"To show myself approved?" I'm not sure what you mean by that phrasing, but yes...I study. But not to 'show myself approved'. I don't care what others think of me, if I'm well learned or not. I study because the more I discover about God and his wonderful plans, the more I'm awed and in love with him. I also study because the bible says we should be able to answer those who have questions.

Do you observe the Passover by eating lamb?

Jesus IS the passover lamb. I observe it by loving him and committing my life to him.

Have you given up your Christmas trees, Easter bunnies, and Halloween?

Sigh. I'm sorry, but I had thought all this had passed with Christmas. But to re-cap: I don't believe in Santa or the Easter bunny. I don't believe that Halloween is the time when spookies come out. But I do put up a tree...it's pretty. I do buy chocolates and I do eat candy. But I do none of that worshipping pagan deities. I don't believe in pagan deities. The only God in my life, is the ever lasting one of the Bible. So at Christmas time I go about my life enjoying the pretty sparkles in a purely visual way...(just as I enjoy my outdoor solar lights every single day), praising God that he sent his Son...at Easter I munch on Chocolate and amaze that Jesus would actually die for me...and at Halloween I roll my eyes at the fuss and bother...while I eat candy!
And you know what....as long as I don't worship any idols or pagan deities...the bible says I have freedom to enjoy these days for what they are...days that God has made and given me the freedom to thank Jesus for them. Trees are not evil...God made them. Chocolate is not evil, neither is candy. It's how mankind uses these things that are evil...and if I enjoy these things in a manner that thanks and enjoy's God's common grace to all, then I am free to do so.

Have you removed images from your home?

Again...I'm not sure what you mean here. What do you mean by "images"? Are you referring to photos? Pic's of the family, or a landscape? Are you talking about the bird bath in the garden, or perhaps the gnome?
See...here's the problem. Humans have the incredible knack of making idols from anything...it doesn't have to be an 'image'. As you mentioned above with Christmas...some do indeed make an idol from that holiday. Some make idols out of their children, out of sports...out of their dogs, for goodness sakes! They needn't have a little budda set up in a corner...it could be anything.
So as Christians we need to be very aware of this fact, asking ourselves every day if we're putting too much into something. If we would grieve and shrivel if something was taken away from us...if we think about it all the time, if we put our worth and happiness in something. If we do, we have an idol. Nothing, absolutely nothing, should be that important...only Jesus.
So yeah...I have photos on my wall....but if my entire home burned down tomorrow, I would be content...I would have Jesus.

Have you been a witness to others, with patience and longsuffering?

I'm still on this site, aren't I?!!

Have you taken note of the ordinances in the Law and made your life to adjust more correctly with His precepts?

Are you talking the Mosaic Law? I certainly respect it, but as it has been fulfilled by Christ, I no longer subject myself to it. Romans 10, Ephesians 2, Colossians 2 and Galatians 2 and 3 are fantastic to read for understanding about this...as is Hebrews.
But please understand...by this I do not approve the teachings of antinomianism. The NT gives us many things to 'live by'. Jesus himself tells us that the greatest commandment is to love God with all of our being, and to love others as we love ourselves. Paul gives us many things that are good to seek after, and also things we should put to death. And scripture also gives us knowledge of the Spirit's work within us...sanctification that we need to walk hand in hand with the Spirit...forever getting closer to Christ as we go. There are many things in life that help us on this path...reading scripture and praying, for one thing. Actively striving to put sin to death. That sort of thing.

Or does the Son of God have to die for you and nothing is expected of you in return?

If we can't answer yes to all of these questions then we are failing as a people.

I think there is a huge difference between what could be said as an 'expectation' from conversion, and a 'necessity' for it. It almost feels like you have made the above list as a necessity for salvation (please correct me if I'm reading it wrong).
Nothing is done by us to receive or keep salvation. If we needed to do anything to either receive or keep, then we could not say that all glory is given to God for the gift we receive....and clearly scripture teaches that the work and upholding of salvation is entirely his work.

But out of true conversion comes an outpouring we see in fruit...if a person has truly been regenerated by the grace of God, we see evidence of their new hearts. In this God receives glory in our forever coming closer to Christ...and as we see in Ephesians, God is after his own glory. It's what he seeks, what is rightfully his. So in our transformation, he gets glory. That's what he wants...not a Pharisaical tick list that is followed with a sense of "if I don't do this, I'm going to hell".

 

[IAmAWitness]

Let me say for the record, I apologize to you Arnie. I know I have offended you in the past and that may have contributed to a lack of understanding inn future discussions. I feel very passionate about when individuals call me that because frankly, accusations like that lead to misunderstandings and eventually bans if a moderator believes that a person is that. So I have had bad experiences in the past with being called that or Muslim without foundation but I hope in the future you can see through my posts that I try to be independent and sound in my arguments. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Let me say for the record, I apologize to you Arnie. I know I have offended you in the past and that may have contributed to a lack of understanding inn future discussions. I feel very passionate about when individuals call me that because frankly, accusations like that lead to misunderstandings and eventually bans if a moderator believes that a person is that. So I have had bad experiences in the past with being called that or Muslim without foundation but I hope in the future you can see through my posts that I try to be independent and sound in my arguments. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Thank you ..... but I want you to know that you never offended me in the first place .... and you did not owe me any apology .... I am the one who is guilty for suggesting you were maybe JW ..... and it turns out I was wrong

I look forward to many future discussions with you .....
I will try to not be so judgmental next time

Best wishes

 

[shturt678]

Yes, we cannot do anything for Him; however i think, my opinion only and refutable of course, that we cannot carry this to far resulting going to Church on Sunday for an hour and a half ... say "God bless u during the week ... go to mid-week prayer, bible studies Wed. eve omitting "not doing, not meaning "good works"," not in the sense of doing something of ourselves to remove guilt (no merit intended) to be saved, but in the sense of Matt.12:50 just for a take-off? I have been told repeatedly ... "u don't have to do anything, but just except his grace" and have always have had an issue with this in the sense of Matt.7:21 decades ago ... now use Matt.12:50?????????????

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Sometimes I think we forget that the whole message of the bible can be boiled down to this....

Be a Christian believer

Then we have it all.

Much too often we get the idea we should be doing a whole bunch of other things

 

[tgwprophet]

Arnie.. you grew an inch in my eyes.

 

[shturt678]

"Be a Christian believe??? What about Matt.7:21 "doing the will" then move forward to v.22, etc. regarding the warning ... thank for understanding and ur patience.


The Word gotcha ... ur silence is thunderous ... thank u folks ... i thought i had this dialed in, u confirmed it ... thanking the Lord with u.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

shturd678

You talk strange ..... what are you trying to say ?

It appears we do not live up to your expectations.

How do you know how we live our Christian lives ?

And is there something you feel you could teach us ?

 

[Angelina]

Hmm...I think that he's saying we have to doing as well as believe. Hi shturd! Welcome aboard! :huh: the rest is lost in translation I'm afraid

Bless y'all!

 

[shturt678]

Thank u so much and sorry wasn't clear ... U FOLKS HAVE SOMETHING U COULD TEACH ME! ... highlighting, not yelling .. working with u ...what i poorly have been trying to understand why most, my opinion of almost 3 decades, IN THE CHURCHES, press "we don't have to do anything for him" which is absolutely true, to the point of going to Church on Sunday, bringing ur money, for an hour and a half, see u next Sunday mind set, neglecting "DOING his will" ... maybe u can shed some light? thank u again so much sir, ur my teacher.

 

[williemac]

Just a reminder that the intention is that we love Him because He first loved us. Therefore I am not comfortable at all with the mindset that comes up with the phrase or suggestion in the op, that we "have" to do things for Jesus.
One of the real changes that came forth from the new covenant is in the motivation for our good deeds and loving actions. Under the law, they were 'required' to obey the law. Under grace, we are a new creation. The things that the law demanded were unnatural for man, because the law insisted that a sinner behave righteously. But now, the intention is that we simply follow the new nature that has been placed in us. This for most of us, is a process, both of learning the new nature and unlearning the old. There is a matter of putting on and putting off, as Paul called it in Eph.4:22-24.
But the biggest change, the one that sets us free, is that whatever we do for Jesus is now a response or a result of what has already been accomplished (1.) by Him on our behalf, and (2.) in us through the new birth. Under the law, these things were done rather, in anticipation of what God would do in response. On the contrary, we do not work 'for' our life, but rather we simply live out the life He has put in us by His grace.

And the further point is; how well we do in living our our new life in Him will determine our eternal rewards, but will not have any determination towards the keeping of this eternal life. Even if one's works are burned, he himself will be saved, as through fire. That scenario is not recommended, but it does not remove our assurance. And more importantly, it does not cause us to be our own savior. That is not our role. Our role in salvation is to receive the free gift of life. This removes any and all cause or potential for boasting.

 

[I am Second]

Therefore I am not comfortable at all with the
mindset that comes up with the phrase or suggestion in the op, that we
"have" to do things for Jesus.

I think it all boils down to spiritual maturity and your journey to it. Some Christians I believe will never get their other foot out of the world because a part of them still loves the world. Others are quick to listen to the Holy Spirit and are continually set apart to a farther degree from the world from glory to glory. When you are quick to listen and obey His promptings you have experiences where Heaven comes down to you and these revelations are serious faith builders. And when you know that you know that you know He is real you are so amazed that you will do all that He tells you to do because you love Him and you realize that the reward is so great you can't wait for it to happen again. There is nothing else like it.

 

[forrestcupp]

I could probably write a book on each of the points of the original post, but I'll just pick out one for now. The whole pork thing. Where did that come from? Why did you choose pork and not lobster? But most importantly, what about these scriptures from the New Testament that basically says that all foods have been declared clean?


Act 10:11 and he *saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground,
Act 10:12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air.
Act 10:13 A voice came to him, "Get up, Peter, kill and eat!"
Act 10:14 But Peter said, "By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean."
Act 10:15 Again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy."


Mar 7:18 And He *said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,
Mar 7:19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

I believe that salvation is a free gift of God, but that Jesus requires us to "abide in Him" and "obey His commandments" after we are saved. However, as a gentile Christian, I'm not bound by the Jewish national law spelled out in the Old Testament. I'm bound by the laws of the USA, but more importantly, God's law that He has written on my inward parts. Just look at the whole discussion in Acts 15 between Paul and the leaders of the Jerusalem church about circumcision. They ended up telling him to let them know they only needed to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, fornication, meat from animals that were strangled, and blood. Most of the Jewish laws that carry over are moral laws, and they are addressed in the New Testament.

But yes, God does require things of us after we are saved.

 

[Angelina]

I believe that salvation is a free gift of God, but that Jesus requires us to "abide in Him" and "obey His commandments" after we are saved. However, as a gentile Christian, I'm not bound by the Jewish national law spelled out in the Old Testament. I'm bound by the laws of the USA, but more importantly, God's law that He has written on my inward parts. Just look at the whole discussion in Acts 15 between Paul and the leaders of the Jerusalem church about circumcision. They ended up telling him to let them know they only needed to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, fornication, meat from animals that were strangled, and blood. Most of the Jewish laws that carry over are moral laws, and they are addressed in the New Testament.

But yes, God does require things of us after we are saved.

Well said forrestcupp, I enjoyed reading your post. Welcome to CyB ^_^

Bless ya!

 

[I am Second]

Act 10:11 and he *saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground,
Act 10:12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air.
Act 10:13 A voice came to him, "Get up, Peter, kill and eat!"
Act 10:14 But Peter said, "By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean."
Act 10:15 Again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy."

Keep on reading! They are talking about PEOPLE!!
When the messengers of Cornelius arrived, Peter understood that
the vision was indeed from the Lord. The fact that these men were Gentiles led
Peter to understand the true meaning of the vision: "God hath shown me that I
should call no MAN common or unclean" (Acts 10:28). Peter�s explanation
makes it clear that the vision was meant to be understood in a figurative
sense.

Mar 7:18 And He *said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,
Mar 7:19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

Keep reading! They are talking about HAND WASHING!
The subject here—made obvious from verses 2-5—was unwashed hands, not which meats could be eaten. The purification of food referred to the way the body's digestive process eliminates minor impurities such as those that might be present from eating with unwashed hands.


Read here and it will explain it better than I can.
http://www.ucg.org/booklet/what-does-bible-teach-about-clean-and-unclean-meats/does-new-testament-abolish-meat-distinct/

and another here: http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/RA/k/1049/Clean-Unclean-Meats.htm

Jesus's death on the cross did not change the DNA of swine, if it did, please show me that verse.

 

[forrestcupp]

Well said forrestcupp, I enjoyed reading your post. Welcome to CyB ^_^

Bless ya!

Thank you. God bless you. I'm enjoying the forums.

Keep on reading! They are talking about PEOPLE!!
When the messengers of Cornelius arrived, Peter understood that
the vision was indeed from the Lord. The fact that these men were Gentiles led
Peter to understand the true meaning of the vision: "God hath shown me that I
should call no MAN common or unclean" (Acts 10:28). Peter�s explanation
makes it clear that the vision was meant to be understood in a figurative
sense.

Keep reading! They are talking about HAND WASHING!
The subject here—made obvious from verses 2-5—was unwashed hands, not which meats could be eaten. The purification of food referred to the way the body's digestive process eliminates minor impurities such as those that might be present from eating with unwashed hands.


Read here and it will explain it better than I can.
http://www.ucg.org/booklet/what-does-bible-teach-about-clean-and-unclean-meats/does-new-testament-abolish-meat-distinct/

and another here: http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/RA/k/1049/Clean-Unclean-Meats.htm

Jesus's death on the cross did not change the DNA of swine, if it did, please show me that verse.

On the first point, of course I know that Acts 10 is ultimately talking about gentile people. But why in the world would God try and confuse us by giving an example that He doesn't really mean? What if it really is only meant to be symbolic, but God didn't come out and specifically say, this is a symbolic vision; DO NOT REALLY DO WHAT I AM SAYING!!! God would never deceive us and set us up for failure by not being clear that he was just being symbolic. It was a symbol, but He meant what He said, too.

As far as Mark 7, we all know that the whole point of what Jesus was talking about was washing hands, but in the process, "Thus He declared all foods clean". The KJV uses a text variant that refers back to the digestive system, but most translations use the textual variation that points back to "He", which is where we get the whole phrase "Thus He declared all foods clean". People who are against eating pork (but don't usually bother to mention shrimp or lobster) are usually up-in-arms about that because they can't believe that Jesus would change one of the Mosaic laws. I know the health issues people bring up about pork, but I believe that the biggest reason that law was ever even given is to dramatically pronounce what would happen with Cornelius around 1300 years later when God declared all foods clean to prepare Peter's heart for the salvation of the Gentiles.

If you have a problem with pork, I'm not trying to sway your opinion. It's like Paul says in 1 Cor. 8, it's not about the food, but if the food is a problem to someone, don't make it a stumbling block to them.


1Co 8:8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.
1Co 8:9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.

 

[shturt678]

Thank u sir ... accept the refute sir ... just poorly was airing a complaint to God thru u folks about as soon as the Sunday services are over, i have to run to the parkin lot and direct traffic as all in a hurry to get out there for starters, then see them next Sunday, asking them what part of the message did u like? they had no idea saying they were in a hurry having to go somewhere and they claim to be believers? sorry i wasn't lucid and to the point questioning our "belief" system... thank u for ur patience and understanding ... no sarcasm or anything intended.