Admittedly and not proudly I find myself not getting emotional when others/pastors talk about how Jesus had to die on the cross for us and the suffering He felr...yes it is absolutely terrible, devastating, and I can't imagine...but in my mind I just keep thinking about why did it have to be "set up like that" meaning why out of all the possible ways for us to be saved did it have to be that way? I realize like Paul says who are we mere humans to ask questions.
Jesus dying on the cross
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I don't know. That's a difficult question and I've thought about it a lot. All I can figure is it had to be that way for some reason that hasn't been fully revealed. I'll be curious to see if someone can show if it's been revealed in scripture.
How terrible is sin and separation from God if it could be forgiven by something as frivolous as skipping a rope? How remorseful would you be? How thankful? How appreciative? How loved?
Separation from God is worse than bad. It’s ghastly. See how horrific it is from God’s perspective. See what lengths God will go to in order to cause us to realize the horror of our condition and how great his love to redeem us.
It cost God nothing?
Give your son to be brutalized and lose his life so that others may live in the age to come.
You can’t. God did.
It cost God nothing?
Give your son to be brutalized and lose his life so that others may live in the age to come.
You can’t. God did.
Behold
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There is no greater love then laying your life down for someone you love, a friend or a family member........expect for the Love of God that Sent His Son to die for His enemies as well.
God is Holy, and sinning against Holy God as we all have done, is a captital offense.
So, God sent His Son to be judged for our sins, because This is God showing us, How much He loves us all.
John 3:16-17
Jesus didnt have to go to The Cross.
He didnt have to die for our Sin....but He chose to do it.........because His Father wanted Him to, and because of His great love for all of us.
The reality is.. The Cross of Christ is the proof of God's Love......its the Proof of Christ's love for us all.
And....This type of perfect sacrificial love.......you cant find it anywhere else, because its so pure and its so overwhelmingly generous and compassionate and wholly genuine.
Only God loves like this, only CHRIST loves like this..... and why anyone would refuse their LOVE and instead choose to die a Christ rejector and go to HELL........is something to consider.
Truth is its a great thing he accomplished or there would be no salvation - he opened the gates of heaven for all who have faith in his death and resurrection there is great sadness there but great joy also in heaven and on the earth.
Who else but God Almighty can wipe out our sin? There is nobody else. And God chose to do it by sending Jesus to be the 'scapegoat' who carried all our sin to that terrible death on the cross so that all who choose to accept Jesus as their Saviour can be born again and live free from sin. No sin is too bad for God to forgive for those who come to Him in true repentance. Jesus' blood cleanses us and wipes away all our sin.
But why did He have to die in such a horrible way and be crucified? Why couldn't he have just been killed with a knife, like Abraham was about to do with Isaac, and sacrificed as a burnt offering? One could say it happened the way it did to fulfill scripture; but that just takes us back to the question: Why did God ordain it to happen that way so that prophecy foretold it?
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I wonder if indeed it is the selfless reasons that we are taught in church to prove His love, etc, or is it because He wants us to recognize the incredible feat of going through that horrendous situation...or if something else like you suggest. I often find my analytical mind a hinder.
dak
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Yes, it is revealed in scripture. Testimony is spirit, and the Master says that his words are Spirit and they are Life, (John 6:63). And what did they kill him for? hoping that the world would be saved? No, they killed him for his Testimony because it condemned them, and everyone was beginning to believe his words, (testimony), and teaching, which was a threat to their power and authority over the people.
If his Testimony is Spirit, and it is, then that Testimony is also likened to the living water, thus the Father is the fountain of living waters and the Son, the Word, is the living water.
Jeremiah 2:12-13 KJV
12 Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the LORD.
13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.
Jeremiah 17:13 KJV
13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.
What is the next key understanding?
Water is likened to blood in the scripture.
1 Chronicles 11:16-19 (also 2 Samuel 23:14-17)
16 And David was then in the hold, and the Philistines' garrison was then at Bethlehem.
17 And David longed, and said, Oh that one would give me drink of the water of the well of Bethlehem, that is at the gate!
18 And the three brake through the host of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Bethlehem, that was by the gate, and took it, and brought it to David: but David would not drink of it, but poured it out to the LORD,
19 And said, My God forbid it me, that I should do this thing: shall I drink the blood of these men that have put their lives in jeopardy? for with the jeopardy of their lives they brought it. Therefore he would not drink it. These things did these three mightiest.
Their deeds and actions, even putting their lives in jeopardy, bringing water to the king from the well of Bethlehem, ("the house of bread"), turns the water into blood, (symbolically), because the water becomes tantamount to their blood. By the same analogy the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts is tantamount to his blood because they killed him for his Testimony, and thus, he literally paid for the Testimony given to him from above with his own blood. Anyone therefore who tramples his all important Testimony tramples the Spirit of Grace, (Zec 12:10, Heb 10:29).
The Spirit, the Water, and the Blood: these three Testify, and are one.
1 John 5:6-8 ASV
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood.
7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.
Therefore, if anyone sidelines his Testimony, and refuses to hear, understand, and walk in it: the same has no part in him, for that Testimony is tantamount to his blood, and it is the Atonement. This, at least to me, appears to be one of the greater reasons why it had to be the way it was and is.
I think thatt's something that only God could tell you. It was very public and was the way they did executions in those days so presumably if it had been a different era or a different place it would have been by the execution method used there and then. But it wasn't. God chose Jerusalem under Roman rule to make His big statement. probably because he knew the word would spread quickly.
Lambano
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Way too many years ago, our Pastor's Good Friday sermon was based on an article that had appeared in Reader's Digest concerning The Medical Effects of Crucifixion. Crucifixion ain't pretty; never forget those crosses we wear as jewelry are torture devices. The sermon was a little too intense for an elderly member of our congregation; he had a heart attack and we had to call 911. As the paramedics worked on him out in the Narthex, I overheard the pastor telling his wife, "Well, I guess he got the message!" She threw an elbow into his ribs. Hard.
Lambano
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I agree that those messages are important. I see another message:
Crucifixion was used by the Romans, and before them the Carthaginians and Persians. The purpose is to force a prolonged, agonizing death, and use the fear of it to control a potentially rebellious population. What kind of sick, twisted human mind came up with that one? I think it is significant that some of humanity's most depraved impulses are on full display here. We're a sick, twisted race.
I also note that the Romans reserved crucifixions for slaves and rebels against the state. If Jesus represents us, the message is that we are slaves rebelling against God.
You know, I had been looking at a few thing concerning this for sometime, and I cannot say I am a 100% certain here between every comparison, it needs some work.
But I thought, what if the exact moment of darkness that came over the earth (when Jesus was on the cross) could be found in scripture beforehand, bearing witness to what we are given to know (of the pieces) we have concerning that particular time?
So I was looking at this, if you can see where I am trying to go here.
Amos 8:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
Noon is the sixth hour, and here is also when such a time come (and darkness over the land)
Mar 15:33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
But Isaiah also says this.
Isaiah 9:19 Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened
So how would wrath play into the darkness over the land from the sixth hour until the ninth hour?
Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Here in Isaiah wrath and the hiding of his face are connected
Isaiah 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Which corresponds to the sure mercies of David which follows after (which the apostles speak of in relationship to Christ) through whom we have forgiveness of sins
And so if we take from the last two verses and go forward bringing them into Acts
Isaiah 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
We turn to Acts
Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
Acts 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Which was another utterance of Jesus on the cross
Luke 23:34 "Father forgive them they know not what they do"
Paul continues,
Ephes 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Whom God hath set forth
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
1 Cr 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Turning back, and loooking at this again, adding something else into it here
Christ's forsaken cry comes in at the ninth hour
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Even as it says, through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, a little wrath also pertains to the hiding of his face as shown here
Isaiah 54:7-8 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
The hiding of his face can be done against a nation or a man only as it says in Job
Job 34:29 When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only.
And so when Jesus cries, "My God my God, why hast thou forsaken me" I believe its according to how some of these things in scripture show them in various places, through wrath the land is darkened, and " In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment", whether done against a nation or a man only. When we know, that The LORD had laid upon Jesus Christ the iniquity of us all, and the chastisement of our peace was upon him (Isaiah 53:5)
And this verse again, adding the following verse in (which pertains to Jesus Christ)
Isaiah 55:3-4 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
And ofcourse, again, the apostles springboarding off of Isaiah 55 tell us
Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins
Ephes 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Okay, so I will leave it there, sorry I repeat things because I roll them around in a few ways before deciding I am catching this correctly, but I thought it would fit on this thread.
There a story that is sometimes told about how the lost, the isolated, the rejected, the abused a.l got together to accuse God of not caring, of not understanding what they suffered and how each group stood up saying let God be, rejected, isolated, abused, tortured etc etc etc
Then they slowly realise that Jesus did suffer every form of rejection, abuse etc that they listed and that he went through it for them.
The cross was a brutal degrading humiliating form of execution that demonstrates something of how awful sin is and shows something of the love Jesus has for us.
We don't have to understand all the whys but we do ha e to accept the fact that it did happen, as did the resurrection.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
He died Ernie so that we can be assured that God is not violent. Jesus would rather die than kill. The scripture tells us he laid down his life willingly. John 10:18 It was done to dispel/ nullify Satans accusations.
For what is it worth, here are the final two pages of my commentary on the Book of Daniel...
Love That Waits, Love That Redeems
When we look at the cross, we often focus on what Jesus endured—the lashes, the nails, the suffocating pain. And rightly so. It was horrific. But if we stop there, we miss the deeper message. The cross wasn’t just about physical suffering. It was the Father’s way of showing us what Eden felt like from His side.
“This is how it felt,” God says, “when My children walked away.”
We often ask, “Why did it have to be this way?” Why the brutality? Why the blood? Why did salvation require something so dreadful? Because nothing less could express the grief of a Father who had to send His beloved Son—not just to die—but to feel, absorb, and carry every tear, wound, lie, betrayal, and heartbreak caused by sin since Adam's first step away.
Sin was never just a mistake—it was separation.
And the cross was not just a payment—it was a mirror.
It was God saying:
“This is what your disobedience has done. Not just to Me, but to all of you. This is the weight I have carried every day since Eden.”
Picture a father standing at the door of his home. He watches his teenage daughter—his only child—walk down the front steps with a bag slung over her shoulder. She’s convinced she doesn’t need him anymore. Convinced the world will offer more freedom, more love, fewer rules. She doesn’t know that behind the structure of his home was protection. She doesn’t yet see that the boundaries he gave were love in disguise.
But he knows what she’s walking into.
He knows she may be mocked. Touched. Abused. Forgotten.
He knows predators dress as friends. That love, in the world, often comes with a price.
She is still innocent. But he’s not.
And so he stands there—broken. Not because he’s angry, but because he loves her so deeply. Because he knows.
That’s the Father at Eden.
That’s the Father at Calvary.
And that’s the Father at your doorstep every time you walk away.
This is why, at Passover, the Jewish family was instructed to bring the lamb into their home four days before it was sacrificed (Exodus 12:3–6). The children would come to love it. They’d name it. Feed it. Care for it. So when it was finally taken to be slaughtered, they’d feel it. They’d understand the cost—not just in blood, but in love lost. And even that was only a small reflection of the pain in the Father’s heart.
The Lamb of God was not a transaction.
He was a Son.
And we were the ones who walked away.
But on the cross, God showed us what He was willing to endure to get us back.
“This is how far My love will go,” He says.
“This is what My justice requires—and My mercy fulfills.”
He didn’t stand at the door forever.
He ran.
Bloody footprints. Open arms. No shame. No conditions.
And one day soon, when we return—when we finally see the One whom we have pierced— He will say only this: “Welcome home. I’ve been waiting.”
“Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; upon Him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with His wounds we are healed.”— Isaiah 53:4–5
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” — John 3:16
“Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!”— John 1:29
“They will look on Me, the one they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for an only son.”— Zechariah 12:10
This is the same love that watched Adam walk away…
The same love that gave the Lamb…
The same love that ran to the prodigal…
Is the love that will one day open Israel’s eyes.
“And in this way all Israel will be saved…”— Romans 11:26
One family. One covenant fulfilled. One cross that bore it all.
Can You See Me Now…
Can You See Me Now…
That very well may be true, but why the old testament when there certainly was violence? Jesus and God are the same, why did the time period of the old testament happen? Was it all simply for His glory?
The first mention of violence is in Genesis and it says,
Gen 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
2 Sam 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.
Psalm 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psalm 72:14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
Prov 4:17 For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.
Jerm 22:3 Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.
Jer 22:17 But thine eyes and thine heart are not but for thy covetousness, and for to shed innocent blood, and for oppression, and for violence, to do it.
What John the baptist preached
Luke 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
Of the Lord Jesus Christ it says
Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Here where violence was done to this one would be upon Babylon
Jer 51:35 The violence done to me and to my flesh be upon Babylon, shall the inhabitant of Zion say; and my blood upon the inhabitants of Chaldea, shall Jerusalem say.
And here with violence shall the great city of Babylon would be thrown down
Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
That is the last time violence is specifically mentioned in the scripture
Gen 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
2 Sam 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.
Psalm 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psalm 72:14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
Prov 4:17 For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.
Jerm 22:3 Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.
Jer 22:17 But thine eyes and thine heart are not but for thy covetousness, and for to shed innocent blood, and for oppression, and for violence, to do it.
What John the baptist preached
Luke 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
Of the Lord Jesus Christ it says
Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Here where violence was done to this one would be upon Babylon
Jer 51:35 The violence done to me and to my flesh be upon Babylon, shall the inhabitant of Zion say; and my blood upon the inhabitants of Chaldea, shall Jerusalem say.
And here with violence shall the great city of Babylon would be thrown down
Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
That is the last time violence is specifically mentioned in the scripture
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