Jesus is God or Lord?

[Odn]

Hi Stranger, thanks for your input. I also understand what you are saying...This is my opinion which it does not necessarily reflect the forums position in any way. You quoted Isaiah 9:6 which can easily correspond with Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23 as giving birth to/conceiving a son. Luke 1:35 also states "And the angel answered her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God." ESV. This verse indicates a future tense and not present tense. Not all biblical scholars believe in the doctrine of eternal sonship and there are evangelicals on both sides of this debate.

John1:1-3 tells us that Jesus is God. John 1:14 tells us that he became flesh and lived among us. Those who were with him observed his glory as the only begotten. HCSB says ~"the one and only son from the Father". This does not discount the idea that those who were observing him were not referring to his virgin birth.

Greetings Angelina, I understand that John 1:3 says that "the Word was God", but can we just ignore everything written before or after that verse, .. you know what I mean?
First, who was the Word?
Well, John 1 says "the Word became flesh", and in other Scriptures we learn that the Word of God is also named Jesus Christ, I doubt anyone would disagree with that, right?

Now if "the Word" was truly God, John chapter 1 would not make any sense, for we would have to read it with an added Trinitarian interpretation like so:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the God, and the God was with God, and the God was God. 2 He, God was with God in the beginning. 3 Through God all things were made; without God nothing was made that has been made.

I'm sure you agree that God is Spirit, yes?
That "no one has ever seen God", just as no one has seen our mind/spirit, .. do we still agree?
That God has always used His creation (wind, thunder, Fiery-Angel in a bush that looked like it's on fire, Prophets, even a donkey) to communicate with man, .. right?
God also communicated in these last Days by sending His Only Begotten Son Word, who by His Spirit (God is Holy and He is Spirit) came upon Mary, transplanted the DNA information of His Son Word into Mary's egg, and Jesus was born.

The Bible is clear that God sent His Son, .. not Jesus, but it was the 'Word' that became flesh, who was later named Jesus.

So we understand that Conscious Infinite/Eternity (AKA God) created a place within Himself (there is nothing besides or outside of Infinite) He calls Heaven where God beget a Son whom He named Word. This signified a beginning with our Holy Infinite and Eternal Spirit God. Then through the Word (His son) God created all things in Heaven and earth, nothing, that means not one thing that has ever been created was created without His Son.

Just like the image God created of Himself and His Son Word, man, remember? "Let us make man in our own image"
Adam in the image of God, and Eve in the image of His Son Word.
Just as Eve was Adam before God took her out of Adam (rib), the Word was God before God beget him from Himself.

God bless us all so we may be of One mind, one heart and soul with God. We have to remember that God is NOT divided, especially into three deities who reside in the supernatural realm.

 

[lforrest]

As for eternal sonship, I don't see an issue that he existed before he was born. That is in line with his eternal nature.

Wasn't Jesus also referred to as the Lamb of God? That title was given to him long before he went to the cross.

 

[justaname]

The Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father the only begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man; he suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost. But those who say: ‘There was once when he was not;’ and ‘He was not before he was made;’ and ‘He was made out of nothing,’ or, ‘He is of another substance’ or ‘essence,’ or ‘The Son of God is created,’ or ‘changeable,’ or ‘alterable’—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.

 

[Angelina]

Hey Justaname and lforrest,
I understand that the Nicene creed had adopted the doctrine of eternal sonship which is fine but there are many believers out there who do not agree with this particular doctrine. That's fine with me whether believers accept that theology or not. I for one am not convinced however, it does not take anything away from the salvation message and that to me is the most important thing here.

 

[Angelina]

Greetings Angelina, I understand that John 1:3 says that "the Word was God", but can we just ignore everything written before or after that verse, .. you know what I mean?
First, who was the Word?
Well, John 1 says "the Word became flesh", and in other Scriptures we learn that the Word of God is also named Jesus Christ, I doubt anyone would disagree with that, right?

Now if "the Word" was truly God, John chapter 1 would not make any sense, for we would have to read it with an added Trinitarian interpretation like so:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the God, and the God was with God, and the God was God. 2 He, God was with God in the beginning. 3 Through God all things were made; without God nothing was made that has been made.

I'm sure you agree that God is Spirit, yes?
That "no one has ever seen God", just as no one has seen our mind/spirit, .. do we still agree?
That God has always used His creation (wind, thunder, Fiery-Angel in a bush that looked like it's on fire, Prophets, even a donkey) to communicate with man, .. right?

Hi Odn, I agree

God also communicated in these last Days by sending His Only Begotten Son Word, who by His Spirit (God is Holy and He is Spirit) came upon Mary, transplanted the DNA information of His Son Word into Mary's egg, and Jesus was born.

The Bible is clear that God sent His Son, .. not Jesus, but it was the 'Word' that became flesh, who was later named Jesus.So we understand that Conscious Infinite/Eternity (AKA God) created a place within Himself (there is nothing besides or outside of Infinite) He calls Heaven where God beget a Son whom He named Word. This signified a beginning with our Holy Infinite and Eternal Spirit God. Then through the Word (His son) God created all things in Heaven and earth, nothing, that means not one thing that has ever been created was created without His Son.

When did God beget a son in heaven?

Just like the image God created of Himself and His Son Word, man, remember? "Let us make man in our own image Adam in the image of God, and Eve in the image of His Son Word.Just as Eve was Adam before God took her out of Adam (rib), the Word was God before God beget him from Himself.

So you are saying that God created his son? the word? The Son is created?
Ohhhh...I think I'm getting what you are saying :huh: They were one and God Almighty pulled out "Word" from out of himself and "Word" although he existed eternally, became a separate spiritual being..Is this what you mean?

God bless us all so we may be of One mind, one heart and soul with God. We have to remember that God is NOT divided, especially into three deities who reside in the supernatural realm.

Well that actually makes a lot of sense when you put it that way Odn. Thank you

They [ 3] were there in Genesis 1:1-5 and again in John1:1-5

 

[Angelina]

Hi Stranger,

The resurrection was the day that The Son, who existed with God from all eternity, became begotten of God. He was not begotten as The Son who existed with God the Father in all eternity. He was begotten at the resurrection. (Acts 13:33)

Sorry, I don't agree with you. I think Jesus was God's begotten son when he came into being as a human while in the womb of Mary through the power of the Holy Spirit.

So, you do not believe that Jesus as 'Firstborn among many brethren' speaks to you and I as born sons of God?

If you had read my post you would have noted that I said ~ Jesus was called the first born of many brethren because no one had ever been raised from the dead and ascended into heaven. He was also called the firstborn from the dead ~1 Colossians 1:18, Revelation 1:5. The firstborn among many brothers ~ Romans 8:29.

He was the first and then there were the firstfruits and all those who believe in him by faith....including us...

I gave you John 17:5 which is clear. The Son is talking to The Father. He testified that He Himself existed with the Father before the world began.

I have no issue with that and if you had read my posts, you would have noted that...

I have always said that God the Son existed with God the Father throughout all eternity. I have always said that when The Son, who existed with God throughout eternity, was declared as begotten of God the Father, it was at the resurrection. (Acts 13:33)

I have always believed that God Almighty is eternal and God the word was with him as well as God the Holy Spirit. God almighty is the Father because he had a son who was born into the world from a woman and the Holy Spirit. His name was Jesus the Messiah, the anointed one. He was God's son on earth and his mandate was to fulfill Father God's plan of redemption through Christ's powerful work on the cross...

 

[justaname]

Hey Justaname and lforrest,
I understand that the Nicene creed had adopted the doctrine of eternal sonship which is fine but there are many believers out there who do not agree with this particular doctrine. That's fine with me whether believers accept that theology or not. I for one am not convinced however, it does not take anything away from the salvation message and that to me is the most important thing here.

Agreed...

 

[Stranger]

Hi Stranger,


Sorry, I don't agree with you. I think Jesus was God's begotten son when he came into being as a human while in the womb of Mary through the power of the Holy Spirit.


If you had read my post you would have noted that I said ~ Jesus was called the first born of many brethren because no one had ever been raised from the dead and ascended into heaven. He was also called the firstborn from the dead ~1 Colossians 1:18, Revelation 1:5. The firstborn among many brothers ~ Romans 8:29.

He was the first and then there were the firstfruits and all those who believe in him by faith....including us...

I have no issue with that and if you had read my posts, you would have noted that...


I have always believed that God Almighty is eternal and God the word was with him as well as God the Holy Spirit. God almighty is the Father because he had a son who was born into the world from a woman and the Holy Spirit. His name was Jesus the Messiah, the anointed one. He was God's son on earth and his mandate was to fulfill Father God's plan of redemption through Christ's powerful work on the cross...

But (Acts 13:33) says differently. "...in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." Resurrection day.

If you have no issue with what I said concerning (John 17:5), then why do you have an issue with the eternality of the Son? "..with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Stranger

 

[Angelina]

Hi Stranger,

But (Acts 13:33) says differently. "...in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." Resurrection day

I can't see how it is any different from the verses I have already quoted incl ~ Matthew 2:15, Matthew 3:17, Matthew 17:5, Luke 1:35...

If you have no issue with what I said concerning (John 17:5), then why do you have an issue with the eternality of the Son? "..with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

...because the Word was with God Almighty before he began his ministry on earth but that does not mean that he had the title of Son prior to that, while in heaven....

Be Blessed!

 

[Stranger]

Hi Stranger,


I can't see how it is any different from the verses I have already quoted incl ~ Matthew 2:15, Matthew 3:17, Matthew 17:5, Luke 1:35...


...because the Word was with God Almighty before he began his ministry on earth but that does not mean that he had the title of Son prior to that, while in heaven....

Be Blessed!

It is different because:

1. Matt. 2:15, 3:17, 17:5, and Lu. 1:35 speak to Jesus as the Son of God. As he was. He was always The Son, unbegotten. At the incarnation, a body was prepared the Son. But He was not begotten.

2. But The Son, is begotten of the Father at the resurrection. "This day have I begotten thee". (Acts 13:33)


Concerning Christ's title of the Son prior to the incarnation:

(Pro. 30:4) "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment/ who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

(John 3:13) "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Stranger

 

[Angelina]

1. Matt. 2:15, 3:17, 17:5, and Lu. 1:35 speak to Jesus as the Son of God. As he was. He was always The Son, unbegotten. At the incarnation, a body was prepared the Son. But He was not begotten.
2. But The Son, is begotten of the Father at the resurrection. "This day have I begotten thee". (Acts 13:33)

So you are saying that although Jesus was born of a virgin, born by the Holy Spirit, he was not begotten [meaning Fathered or being an offspring] but that his becoming begotten began at the resurrection? Yet Hebrews 11 says ~
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,[G3439] In reference to John3:16

Concerning Christ's title of the Son prior to the incarnation:
(Pro. 30:4) "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment/ who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
(John 3:13) "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

So who was he when he ascended into heaven? The Son of God or the Son of man?

Please also note the meaning of begotten in these verses;
Psalm 2:7 Begotten ~ yâlad H3205
A primitive root; to bear young; causatively to beget; medically to act as midwife; specifically to show lineage: - bear, beget, birth ([-day]), born, (make to) bring forth (children, young), bring up, calve, child, come, be delivered (of a child), time of delivery, gender, hatch, labour, (do the office of a) midwife, declare pedigrees, be the son of, (woman in, woman that) travail (-eth, -ing woman).

John 3:16 Begotten ~ monogenēs G3439
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).
G3441 monos Probably from G3306; remaining, that is, sole or single; by implication mere: - alone, only, by themselves.

Act 13:33 Begotten ~ gennaō G1080
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.
G1085 genos ~ From G1096; kin (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock

Blessings!!!

 

[Stranger]

So you are saying that although Jesus was born of a virgin, born by the Holy Spirit, he was not begotten [meaning Fathered or being an offspring] but that his becoming begotten began at the resurrection? Yet Hebrews 11 says ~
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,[G3439] In reference to John3:16


So who was he when he ascended into heaven? The Son of God or the Son of man?

Please also note the meaning of begotten in these verses;
Psalm 2:7 Begotten ~ yâlad H3205
A primitive root; to bear young; causatively to beget; medically to act as midwife; specifically to show lineage: - bear, beget, birth ([-day]), born, (make to) bring forth (children, young), bring up, calve, child, come, be delivered (of a child), time of delivery, gender, hatch, labour, (do the office of a) midwife, declare pedigrees, be the son of, (woman in, woman that) travail (-eth, -ing woman).

John 3:16 Begotten ~ monogenēs G3439
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).
G3441 monos Probably from G3306; remaining, that is, sole or single; by implication mere: - alone, only, by themselves.

Act 13:33 Begotten ~ gennaō G1080
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.
G1085 genos ~ From G1096; kin (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock

Blessings!!!

Yes. Jesus was born of a virgin, of the Holy Ghost, but not begotten of God at the incarnation. As (Heb.10:5) says, "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:"

Concerning Abraham and Isaac, I mentioned this before. Isaac is called the 'only begotten'. But in reality he wasn't the only begotten. Ishmael was the first son of Abraham. But Isaac was the Covenant Son. The one in whom all the promises of God in Abraham would be passed on. Just like Jesus is the 'only begotten' in that in Him are all the promises given. But in reality, He is not the only begotten numerically because all who are born-again are also sons of God.

It is God who chose the 'birthing place'. It is He Who chose the method of birth knowing that others would be born later to Him also. And as (Acts 13:33) clearly states, "this day have I begotten thee", it is at the resurrection. Just as (1Peter 1:3) says also. "begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

When Jesus ascended into Heaven He was and is The Son of God and The Son of Man. The God Man.

Stranger

 

[Angelina]

Okay well I've just about had my share of this conversation. We are just going back and forth with the same conversation and not getting anywhere so I'm going to close it. Thanks for your input. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Bless ya!