Jesus is Michael

[ReChoired]

You deny god renamed Jacob to Israel and henceforth that was His natural name?

Yes. Not a 'natural' name. It is the 'spiritual' name, and in scripture he is still called both, naturally Jacob, and spiritually Israel.

So, yes, again, I deny your unscriptural assertion that the name Israel is a natural name. It isn't.

 

[ReChoired]

But the Bible defines its own symbols

I provided all the scripture references wherein the Bible defined those numbers, and names. Did you address any of it? Of course not, you are AFRAID to.

 

[ReChoired]

As you have demonstrated by your reinterpretations without warrant.

Oh I have- that is just you making a false assumption.
And my if is a yea.

Wow. You are very PROUD and BOASTFUL. Two qualities of antichrist.

 

[ReChoired]

Proof?

I gave it you. Try not to quote only part of what I said. The devil does that too.

 

[ReChoired]

So the twelve tribes are phony and not real?

Try reading the scripture references I provided (or are you still AFRAID to do so?).

Start with Matthew 2:13-15,19-21; Hosea 11:1; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33.

Twelve tribes of Revelation do not refer in context to natural sons of Jacob, but rather to spiritual sons of Israel (Jesus), texts already provided.

You sure do like to make up stuff about my position, though I said no such thing as you intimate.

 

[quietthinker]

Jesus is Michael
Seems he has a few names. Are any of them contradictory?

 

[ReChoired]

No as Paul says in every generation there are physical Jews who are saved.

Jews can still be saved in Christ Jesus of course. I stated as much (but did you read what I said? No, you were AFRAID to).

By the way the word "Jews" refers to those of Judah primarily, and later also of Benjamin and remnants of Levi (southern tribes). It never refers to twelve tribes of Jacob.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I see I am dealing with a hardened heart.

Please spare me the false spiritual insights! That is lame accusation given byu those who have no solid defense for their claims.

5. Feet Iron & Miry Clay, Little Horn with mouth & eyes of a man, speaking great words against God, uproots three of ten, beast from the Sea, 7 heads 10 horns = Papal Rome (church & state combined). Used Franks (Clovis) as sword of state.

6. Beast from bottomless pit, King over them, spiritually Sodom & Egypt, gives deadly wound to Papacy, sword of the state turns on Papal Rome = Secular Humanism beginning in France (Napoleon, etc), spreading globally.

7. Beast from the earth, two horns like a lamb, speaks as a dragon = Apostate Protestantism beginning in USA, spreading globally (also the 7th head with ten horns in Revelation 17, being the United Nations)

8. Deadly wound healed, even he is the eighth and is of the seven, just as the little horn after uprooting three is the eighth also = Papacy revived, uniting with Apostate Protestantism and kings of the earth (final triumvirate) as the sword of the state given back to it.

YOu had doen very well till here, then you went to an old debunked interpretation.

Ah!, making stuff up about my position, again?! That's called a strawman, and is yet another logical fallacy.

I no where denied the natural sons of Jacob were in Egypt 430 years. I accept that as fact.

What I said was, that Jesus (Israel; Matthew 2:13-15,19-21; Hosea 11:1) is the real fulfillment, as Matthew states.

If you agree that the natural sons are the type, then I ask you what is the name of the antitype according to Matthew and Hosea?

See what I mean by you being AFRAID to admit so simple a thing? You simply cannot admit that Jesus is the real Israel.

Well I am glad you do accept them as fact! I( had to ask because it seemed you were heading down that very allegorical path. But your accusatio of a strawman is the strawman.

The antitype of Jesus- is the antichrist.

And there are stull enormolus prohecies concerning the twelve tribes that must be fulfilled to them and not somehow spiritually moved to jesus.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I do not have to prove your assertion. I, however, did tell you the evidence for my position. After the Assyrian captivity, those nations taken were supplanted by others of other nations. Those tribes taken never recovered their lands, titles, family names, inheritance, or even a place among the Sanhedrin as elders.

Even some (not all) Jewish rabbis state this:

R. Akiva states that "the ten tribes shall not return again" (Sanh. 10:3). In commenting on Leviticus 26:38, which the rabbis apply to the ten tribes, R. Akiva states that it refers to their complete disappearance (Sifra, Be-Ḥukkotai, 8:1).

The Bible says that God was so angry with them that He removed them out of His sight:

2Kin 17:18: "Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only."

2Kin 17:23: "Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day."

While in scripture, we see also Judah and Jerusalem removed, they by God's grace were allowed back after 70 years exile in Babylon, and Jerusalem rebuilt. However, not in a single place in scripture, is anything ever said of the gathering again, or return of northern tribes of Israel. They are called "the ten LOST tribes" for a reason, irrespective of all the non scriptural nonsense in this world about 'where' and 'who' they are.

Of course you do not have to prove your claim. It just stays a claim!

There are far more rabbis and ancient Rabbis who accept the twelve tribes are still twelve. We may not be able to wrap our pea brains around the fact, But God knows which is why He could list those twelve tribes in REvelation. Remember Rabbi Akiva is not Scripture.

Yes teh Assyrian captivity has removed nearly all the northern ten tribes from the land since. But that does not mean their identity is lost!

Ez. 37 says God will rejoin all 12 together again. Jer. 31 the new covenant is made to the houses of Israel and Judah- all 12 tribes! Rev. shows God selecting 12,000 from 12 tribes! It may be beyond your ability to understand but not for God! Not every Jew back in the promised land are just from the tribes of Benjamin and Judah. No Rabbi would agree with you. I was there and had wonderful conversations about this very subject.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes. Not a 'natural' name. It is the 'spiritual' name, and in scripture he is still called both, naturally Jacob, and spiritually Israel.

So, yes, again, I deny your unscriptural assertion that the name Israel is a natural name. It isn't.

So we shall agree to disagree! But you for your allegorical reinterpretations. And it is not unscriptural!

Jews can still be saved in Christ Jesus of course. I stated as much (but did you read what I said? No, you were AFRAID to).

By the way the word "Jews" refers to those of Judah primarily, and later also of Benjamin and remnants of Levi (southern tribes). It never refers to twelve tribes of Jacob.

YOu love to think I am afraid. you are lousy at mind reading! I do not fear your words.

technically Jews refer top the tribre of Judah yes. but colloquially Jews refer to all of Israeli descent. I speak colloquially.

Try reading the scripture references I provided (or are you still AFRAID to do so?).

Start with Matthew 2:13-15,19-21; Hosea 11:1; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33.

Twelve tribes of Revelation do not refer in context to natural sons of Jacob, but rather to spiritual sons of Israel (Jesus), texts already provided.

You sure do like to make up stuff about my position, though I said no such thing as you intimate.

Well if by spiritual sons of Israel, you mean 12, 000 saved Jews from the twelve tribes I agree! But if you are trying to make it some variation of replacement theology and make it so these 144,000 are saved gentiles who somehow become spiritual Israel, that is politely called HERESY.

I gave it you. Try not to quote only part of what I said. The devil does that too.

YOu ad-hominems are inspiring. But ashow the proof or cite the post #

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Wow. You are very PROUD and BOASTFUL. Two qualities of antichrist.

YOu really do suck at pegging peoples character and then bearing false witness!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I provided all the scripture references wherein the Bible defined those numbers, and names. Did you address any of it? Of course not, you are AFRAID to.

NO what you gave is your opinion of what the names really mean other than what was written! That is known as reinterpreting scripture. There is no warrant to spiritualize this chapter and then reinterpret the plain sense of the Scriptures.

But let me ask you this:

If you won't accept God at His word as He wrote it, why should I accept your opinion of what it means as you wrote it?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes. Not a 'natural' name. It is the 'spiritual' name, and in scripture he is still called both, naturally Jacob, and spiritually Israel.

So, yes, again, I deny your unscriptural assertion that the name Israel is a natural name. It isn't.

Now show from Scripture that the name Israel is just a spiritual and not new natural name.

27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.

28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Seems to me god wanted to rename Jacob! He has the right to do that you know!