Jesus is Michael

[ReChoired]

The roman empire is the 5th world power. 4 world powers were mentioned in Daniel of the 7 of all time before the end comes.

You are confused and mistaken.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

144,000 symbolic (spiritual), not "natural". All texts provided. Please address this post, and do not merely look to what you think you know, but go over each text provided. It's all I ask. Then make your decision to keep what you believe or change your mind.

144,000, made up of 12 Tribes of Israel (Jesus, Israel of God) - Juda, Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nepthalim, Manasses, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph, Benjamin (Names, Character), both Dan (“Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.” – Genesis 49:17 KJB) and Ephraim (“Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.” – Hosea 4:17 KJB) are not mentioned in this Revelation passage. See also Genesis 35:22-26; Numbers 1:5-16,20-46, 7:12-89, 10:11-28, 13:3-16, 26:2-51, 34:16-29; Deuteronomy 27:12-14, 33:6-29; Joshua 14:1-19:51, 21:1-45; 1 Chronicles 2:1-2, 4:1-7:40, 12:24-36, 27:16-22; Ezekiel 48:1-35 KJB.

12 – Service, Victory over self (Israel; OT – 12 patriarchs & NT – 12 disciples/apostles; prince or overcomer with God) and always being about the Father’s business, rulership (Esther 9:1; as the 12 hours in the day/night; John 11:9), purification (Esther 2:12), and 6 + 6 were the two stacks of the shewbread, a place for the Father and Son (Leviticus 24:5-6); see: Genesis 14:4, 42:13; 1 Kings 4:7, 18:31; 1 Chronicles 25:6,9-31; 2 Chronicles 34:3; Nehemiah 5:14; Ezekiel 47:12; Matthew 10:5-10; Mark 3:14-15, 9:35; Luke 2:42,49, 9:1-2; John 18:36; Acts 26:7; James 1:1; Revelation 7:3,4-8, 22:2. KJB

1,000 – The whole of Multitudes (Judges 9:49, 15:15-16; Job 9:3, 33:23; Psalms 50:10; Ecclesiastes 7:28; Mathew 18:24) or full measurement of something (Deuteronomy 7:9; Joshua 23:10; Ezekiel 47:3-5 KJB), whole unit (1 Samuel 18:13); or mighty Nation of People – Numbers 31:4-6 Deuteronomy 1:11; Song of Solomon 4:4; Isaiah 60:22; Daniel 5:1 KJB.

Yet, according to the Scripture (KJB), who is the real and true Israel, and who are His children that ought keep the Sabbath of the LORD?

Jesus and His Disciples:

Jesus is the Real and True “Israel” (Romans 9:6-8), the “Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16), for we read (KJB) in Matthew 2:13-15,19-21; Hosea 11:1 that Jesus is identified by the Father, through the Holy Spirit who inspired Matthew to cite Hosea 11:1 as being truly fulfilled by Jesus, who is named “Israel” (and no marvel for Jesus is also named, “Adam” (1 Corinthians 15:45-47), “David” (Jeremiah 30:9; Ezekiel 34:23-24, 37:24-25; Hosea 3:5), ‘Solomon’ (“Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6), “son of David” (Matthew 1:1; Luke 3:31, &c.)) , “Levi” (Malachi 2:4-7), and many others, for all the scriptures testify of Jesus (John 5:39; Luke 24:27; Psalms 40:7; Hebrews 10:7; Acts 3:18)). Jesus is the Real and True “overcomer” (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21) and “Prince” (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5) with God His Father, which is what the name “Israel” means (Genesis 32:28, 35:10). Jesus is the very “elect” (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God the Father find their realization and true fulfillment (2 Corinthians 1:20; Psalms 2:8, 116:14,18). Jesus is the “Lord” over His own house, whose house are Christians/Disciples (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33).

Since Jesus is the Real and True Israel, who then are His children?

The disciples of Jesus are His Real and True children, given Him by the Father (John 13:33; Hebrews 2:13, citing Isaiah 8:16,18 in context of Isaiah 8:8-20, “Immanuel”, “God with us”, “sanctuary”, “stone”, “rock”, “LORD of Hosts”). Just as the Jacob/Israel after the flesh had the 12 patriarchs (Genesis 35:22), so too Jesus has the 12 Apostles (Matthew 10:2; Luke 6:13, 22:14; Revelation 21:14), and all whom they taught, the number of whom is as the “sand of the sea” (Isaiah 10:22). Though there was a “natural” “Israel”, “after the flesh”, Jesus is the Real and True “spiritual” (1 Corinthians 15:45-47) “Israel”, “of God”, “after the Spirit” (Romans 8:4). For the Law of God (Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath of the LORD, Exodus 20:1-17) is “spiritual” (Romans 7:14), and can only be kept by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:8-13, 10:16; Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:22-38, 37:26-28; 2 Corinthians 3:3,6). There, “remaineth therefore a rest (sabbatismos, Sabbath keeping in spirit and in truth; John 4:23-24; Isaiah 66:22-23; Revelation 14:6-12) to the people of God” (Hebrews 4:9; Hebrews 4:1-12; Matthew 11:28; Exodus 33:14), and because they love Him who first loved them, they keep His commandments (John 14:15; Exodus 20:6; Revelation 12:17, 14:7,12; Exodus 20:11), which are not grievous (1 John 5:3), especially the Sabbath which was “made for” (Mark 2:27) Him/them (Colossians 1:16; 1 Timothy 2:5; 1 Corinthians 15:45-47), never being ‘against’ Him/them; being “light” (Proverbs 6:23; Isaiah 8:20, 51:4), never a shadow; fulfilled in grace/mercy (Exodus20:2,6), thus to be kept holy by all in Christ Jesus in the everlasting covenant (Isaiah 56:1,8; John 10:16; Isaiah 56:2-7).

“Israel”, “after the flesh” (1 Corinthians 10:18), as a ‘nation’ (individuals can still be saved if they call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ), is left “desolate” (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), failed to keep the sabbath of the LORD (Exodus 16:28, 20:12-13, 20-24; Numbers 15:32-41; Psalms 95:11; Hebrews 3:11, 4:3,5), being not mixed with faith (Hebrews 4:2; Romans 14:23), and are to bear no more “fruit” ever again (Matthew 21:19), being cursed, and withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the root (Mark 11:20), being “twice dead” (Jude 1:12), for the axe was already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), and so was cut down, and thrown into the fire (Isaiah 9:14; John 15:6; Matthew 22:7; Luke 21:20), and will be so again in the lake of fire to come (Revelation 20:15, 21:8; 1 John 2:4).

And why did God need you to tell us what He really meant? Was He asleep or not paying attention when He inspired John?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Consider these carefully:

“Of the tribe of Juda (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad (were) sealed twelve thousand.” – Revelation 7:5 KJB

“Of the tribe of Aser (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses (were) sealed twelve thousand.” – Revelation 7:6 KJB

“Of the tribe of Simeon (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar (were) sealed twelve thousand.” – Revelation 7:7 KJB

“Of the tribe of Zabulon (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin (were) sealed twelve thousand.” – Revelation 7:8 KJB

These names exist with their meaning in the OT:

Judah = “Jew” = “I Will Praise The Lord” (Genesis 29:35)

“And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing.” - Genesis 29:35 KJB

Reuben = “Behold A Son” = “He Has Looked On Me” (Genesis 29:32)

“And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me.” - Genesis 29:32 KJB

Gad = “Troop” = “Given Good Fortune” (Genesis 30:11, 49:19) (a troop is a band of persons who brings (back) wealth/fortune through conquering others, or those who overcame others victoriously bringing back spoils/fortune/wealth, etc)

“And Leah said, A troop cometh: and she called his name Gad.” - Genesis 30:11 KJB

“Gad, a troop shall overcome him: but he shall overcome at the last.” - Genesis 49:19 KJB

Asher = “Happy” = “Happy Am I” (Genesis 30:13)

“And Leah said, Happy am I, for the daughters will call me blessed: and she called his name Asher.” - Genesis 30:13 KJB

Naphtali = “Wrestling” = “My Wrestling” (Genesis 30:8)

“And Rachel said, With great wrestlings have I wrestled with my sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali.” - Genesis 30:8 KJB

Manasseh = “Causing To Forget” = “Is Making Me To Forget” (Genesis 41:51)

“And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: For God, (said he), hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house.” - Genesis 41:51 KJB

Simeon = “Heard” = “God Hears Me” (Genesis 29:33)

“And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Because the LORD hath heard that I (was) hated, he hath therefore given me this (son) also: and she called his name Simeon.” - Genesis 29:33 KJB


Levi ** = “Joined To” = “Is Attached To Me” (Genesis 29:34)

“And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi.” - Genesis 29:34 KJB

Issachar = “There Is Recompense” = “He Has Purchased Me” (Genesis 30:18)

“And Leah said, God hath given me my hire, because I have given my maiden to my husband: and she called his name Issachar.” - Genesis 30:18 KJB

Zebulun = “Exalted” = “A Dwelling” (Genesis 30:20)

“And Leah said, God hath endued me (with) a good dowry; now will my husband dwell with me, because I have born him six sons: and she called his name Zebulun.” - Genesis 30:20 KJB

Ephraim * = “Double Ash Heap” = “I Shall Be Doubly Fruitful” (Genesis 41:52)

“And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.” - Genesis 41:52 KJB


Joseph = “Jehovah Was Added” = “God Will Add To Me” (Genesis 30:24)

“And she called his name Joseph; and said, The LORD shall add to me another son.” - Genesis 30:24 KJB

Benjamin = “Son Of The Right Hand” = “Son Of His Right Hand” (Genesis 35:17-18)

“And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also.” - Genesis 35:17 KJB

“And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.” - Genesis 35:18 KJB

Dan * = “A Judge” (Genesis 30:6)

“And Rachel said, God hath judged me, and hath also heard my voice, and hath given me a son: therefore called she his name Dan.” - Genesis 30:6 KJB

And therefore, by the special list given in Revelation (Juda, Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nepthalim, Manasses, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph, Benjamin) it is seen that the meaning is:

Now I Will Praise The LORD {JEHOVAH} (Judah) (for) Surely The LORD Hath Looked Upon My Affliction (Reuben) (and) Granted Good Fortune (Gad) (therefore) Happy Am I (Asher) (even though) With Great Wrestlings Have I Wrestled (Naphtali) (but) God Is Making Me To Forget All My Toil (Manasseh) (for) the LORD Hath Heard Me (Simeon) (being) Joined Unto Me (Levi) (and) He Has Purchased Me (Issachar) (wanting) To Dwell With Me (Zebulun) (and) The LORD Shall Add To Me (Joseph) (also) The Son Of His Right Hand (Benjamin).

A specific example of this may be seen from the Beginning (Adam, see 1 Corinthians 15:45-47 KJB) :

Adam – Genesis 2:7; Eve – Genesis 3:20; Abel – Genesis 4:2; Cain – Genesis 4:1; Seth – Genesis 4:25; Enos – Genesis 4:26; Cainan – Genesis 5:9; Mahalaleel – Genesis 5:12; Jared – Genesis 5:15; Enoch – Genesis 5:18; Methuselah – Genesis 5:21; Lamech – Genesis 5:25; Noah – Genesis 5:29; Shem – Genesis 5:32 KJB

(JEHOVAH) God, through His Unique Son, who died (Adam, Red/blood), Gives Life (Eve), being pierced (Cain), and in the place of (Seth) mourning/sorrow (Abel), for Mortal Man (Enos), Obtained (Cainan), the Praise of God (Mahalaleel), for He Descended/Came Down (Jared), Dedicated/Walked With God and was not found, for God took Him (Enoch), and Whose Death Would Bring (Methuselah), Strength/Vital Force (Lamech), and Rest/Comfort (Noah), so declaring His Good Name (Shem).

You do know that these are the names of teh sons of Jacon whom god changed HIs name to Israel?

You do know God has many specific promises still to fulfill to Israel.

Ifd you do not accept God at His Word when there is no reason to look at it symbolicall or in your case totally reinterpret it, why should I take you at your ?Word. what authority do you present to tell us your interpretation is what God meant?

 

[ReChoired]

And why did God need you to tell us what He really meant? Was He asleep or not paying attention when He inspired John?

"I" am not telling you. The "Bible" is telling you, just to set you straight. The scriptures were cited in abundance, which you seem to be AFRAID to read and accept. Instead you cling to your own private pet theory, unfounded in scripture.

 

[ReChoired]

You do know that these are the names of teh sons of Jacon whom god changed HIs name to Israel?

Indeed. You do know that Israel is not a natural (after the "flesh") name, but a spiritual one (after the "spirit"), granted because of the victory God gave, and it belongs to the Son of God, which He gave in type (1 Corinthians 10)?

 

[ReChoired]

You do know God has many specific promises still to fulfill to Israel.

Matthew 22:29 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

2 Corinthians 1:20 - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"I" am not telling you. The "Bible" is telling you, just to set you straight. The scriptures were cited in abundance, which you seem to be AFRAID to read and accept. Instead you cling to your own private pet theory, unfounded in scripture.

I may have read the bible many more times than you have. I do not fear anything in the bible. And it is you and your organization and not the bible trying to convince us of your reinterpretation of Gods Word.

If the bible said that- then why when believers just read the bible they do not com eup with that reinterpretation of the 144,000. Taking the bible at its face value- there are 144,000 Jews saved and sealed for service, 12,000 from twelve tribes. simple! Now you just need to accept and believe instead of reject and reinterpret.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Indeed. You do know that Israel is not a natural (after the "flesh") name, but a spiritual one (after the "spirit"), granted because of the victory God gave, and it belongs to the Son of God, which He gave in type (1 Corinthians 10)?

It belongs to Jacob whom God directly named Him that! So it is Israels' natural name just like Abrams' natural name is Abraham! That is the bible.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Matthew 22:29 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

2 Corinthians 1:20 - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Yes all the promises of God are yea and Amen, but not all have been fulfilled yet!

I know the Scriptures, not the fanciful reinterpretations done by cunningly deceitful men.

 

[Keiw]

You are confused and mistaken.

Not at all

 

[ReChoired]

Not at all

No, you are deeply confused.

Daniel 2 parallels Daniel 7.

1. Head of Gold, Lion with Eagles wings = Babylon

2. Chest & Arms Silver, Bear with 3 ribs mouth, raised up one side = Medo-Persia

3. Belly & Thighs Brass, Leopard 4 Heads 4 Wings = Greece and division thereof

4. Legs Iron, Dreadful Terrible beast with iron teeth, brass claws and ten horns, red Dragon 7 heads ten horns = Pagan Rome and division of thereof

5. Feet Iron & Miry Clay, Little Horn with mouth & eyes of a man, speaking great words against God, uproots three of ten, beast from the Sea, 7 heads 10 horns = Papal Rome (church & state combined). Used Franks (Clovis) as sword of state.

6. Beast from bottomless pit, King over them, spiritually Sodom & Egypt, gives deadly wound to Papacy, sword of the state turns on Papal Rome = Secular Humanism beginning in France (Napoleon, etc), spreading globally.

7. Beast from the earth, two horns like a lamb, speaks as a dragon = Apostate Protestantism beginning in USA, spreading globally (also the 7th head with ten horns in Revelation 17, being the United Nations)

8. Deadly wound healed, even he is the eighth and is of the seven, just as the little horn after uprooting three is the eighth also = Papacy revived, uniting with Apostate Protestantism and kings of the earth (final triumvirate) as the sword of the state given back to it.

All texts upon request.

As stated, you are confused, greatly.

 

[ReChoired]

Yes all the promises of God are yea and Amen

"in him (Jesus Christ)" and no other. He is the remnant saved, and all who are saved must be in him. He is the real and true Israel.

, but not all have been fulfilled yet!

Where did I say that all promises were fulfilled? I didn't. I quoted scripture showing that all promises are to be fulfilled in Jesus' Christ. You have just given a red herring, a logical fallacy.

Jesus fulfilled all the promises regarding the first Advent, and soon the second and third.

John 19:28: "After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst."

Acts 3:18: "But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled."

Acts 13:29: "And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre."

I know the Scriptures

Obviously not.

, not the fanciful reinterpretations done by cunningly deceitful men.

Then why cling to your errors?

 

[ReChoired]

It belongs to Jacob whom God directly named Him that! So it is Israels' natural name just like Abrams' natural name is Abraham! That is the bible.

No, that is 'you', not bible.

Jacob and Abram are the natural names given by their flesh and blood parents.

Israel and Abraham are the spiritual overcoming or faith names given by God.

Just like Simon is the natural name and Peter the spiritual name.

You confuse natural and spiritual and do not understand scripture. You merely seek to justify your errors, and not justify God and His word.

 

[ReChoired]

I may have read the bible many more times than you have.

Non sequitur. Logical fallacy. The amount of times one reads anything is not guarantee of understanding or acceptance of what is written and read.

You are also basing your argument on an 'if', an assumption, which is just as foolish.

Whether you have or have not read the Bible more than myself is irrelevant to accepting the scriptures I provided to you. You still have not accepted the plain words of Matthew and Hosea, Paul in Hebrews citing Isaiah.

You are afraid to accept what is plainly written because it would mean you have to admit your error and change.

 

[ReChoired]

Taking the bible at its face value- there are 144,000 Jews

Revelation is written in symbols.

Even the two places, use a specific phrase associated with them:

144000

Rev 7:4: "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

200000000

Rev 9:16: "And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them."

Notice the words "I (John) heard the number of them".

Heard deals with "hearing", and that phrase always deals with parables or symbolic (not natural) language.

Luk 8:8: "And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Acts 28:27: "For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

There are no longer, since the Assyrian captivity, 12 distinct natural tribes of Jacob. They no longer exist.

 

[ReChoired]

I do not fear anything in the bible. And it is you and your organization and not the bible trying to convince us of your reinterpretation of Gods Word.

Let's prove you in error.

Matthew 2:

13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,

20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.

21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.

Matthew, under inspiration of the Holy Ghost, said that the Son of God fulfilled something which an OT prophet stated under inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

Hos 11:1: "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."

What is the child's (Son of God's) name?

What does the name mean?

John 16:33: "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

Rev 3:21: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"in him (Jesus Christ)" and no other. He is the remnant saved, and all who are saved must be in him. He is the real and true Israel.

So the twelve tribes are phony and not real?

No as Paul says in every generation there are physical Jews who are saved.

Where did I say that all promises were fulfilled? I didn't. I quoted scripture showing that all promises are to be fulfilled in Jesus' Christ. You have just given a red herring, a logical fallacy.

So Israel inheriting the land will be fulfilled in Jesus?
Gentiles coming to Jerusalem every year will be fulfilled in Jesus?
Lion lying down with teh lamb fulfilled in Jesus?

Jesus fulfilled all the promises regarding the first Advent, and soon the second and third.

Scripture for a third advent?

Obviously not.

Obviously more so than you.

Then why cling to your errors?

It is you that has reinterpreted SCripture not I.

Notice the words "I (John) heard the number of them".

Heard deals with "hearing", and that phrase always deals with parables or symbolic (not natural) language.

Proof?

No, that is 'you', not bible.

You deny god renamed Jacob to Israel and henceforth that was His natural name?

There are no longer, since the Assyrian captivity, 12 distinct natural tribes of Jacob. They no longer exist.

there are still 12 tribes of Israel. Prove they no longer exist.

Let's prove you in error.

Matthew 2:

13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,

20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.

21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.

Matthew, under inspiration of the Holy Ghost, said that the Son of God fulfilled something which an OT prophet stated under inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

Hos 11:1: "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."

What is the child's (Son of God's) name?

What does the name mean?

John 16:33: "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

Rev 3:21: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

You need to study how Jews and even Jesus understood prophecy.

So you deny the nation of Israel spent 430 years in captivity? And as a son was called out of Egypt?

You do not understand God takes literal historical events and also uses them as types and shadows.

Revelation is written in symbols.

Some parts yes. But the Bible defines its own symbols. We co not need such a convoluted system as you have contrived to understand symbology.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Non sequitur. Logical fallacy. The amount of times one reads anything is not guarantee of understanding or acceptance of what is written and read.

You are also basing your argument on an 'if', an assumption, which is just as foolish.

Whether you have or have not read the Bible more than myself is irrelevant to accepting the scriptures I provided to you. You still have not accepted the plain words of Matthew and Hosea, Paul in Hebrews citing Isaiah.

You are afraid to accept what is plainly written because it would mean you have to admit your error and change.

As you have demonstrated by your reinterpretations without warrant.

Oh I have- that is just you making a false assumption.
And my if is a yea.

 

[ReChoired]

there are still 12 tribes of Israel. Prove they no longer exist.

I see I am dealing with a hardened heart.

Each of the twelve natural tribes of Jacob was lead by its respective elder or elders, the primary family. Who are they and where are they now, and why do they not have any position or place in Jerusalem today? (PROVE YOUR UNFOUNDED ASSERTION THAT THE 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL EXIST. I WANT TANGIBLE PROOF)

I do not have to prove your assertion. I, however, did tell you the evidence for my position. After the Assyrian captivity, those nations taken were supplanted by others of other nations. Those tribes taken never recovered their lands, titles, family names, inheritance, or even a place among the Sanhedrin as elders.

Even some (not all) Jewish rabbis state this:

R. Akiva states that "the ten tribes shall not return again" (Sanh. 10:3). In commenting on Leviticus 26:38, which the rabbis apply to the ten tribes, R. Akiva states that it refers to their complete disappearance (Sifra, Be-Ḥukkotai, 8:1).

The Bible says that God was so angry with them that He removed them out of His sight:

2Kin 17:18: "Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only."

2Kin 17:23: "Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day."

While in scripture, we see also Judah and Jerusalem removed, they by God's grace were allowed back after 70 years exile in Babylon, and Jerusalem rebuilt. However, not in a single place in scripture, is anything ever said of the gathering again, or return of northern tribes of Israel. They are called "the ten LOST tribes" for a reason, irrespective of all the non scriptural nonsense in this world about 'where' and 'who' they are.

 

[ReChoired]

So you deny the nation of Israel spent 430 years in captivity? And as a son was called out of Egypt?

Ah!, making stuff up about my position, again?! That's called a strawman, and is yet another logical fallacy.

I no where denied the natural sons of Jacob were in Egypt 430 years. I accept that as fact.

What I said was, that Jesus (Israel; Matthew 2:13-15,19-21; Hosea 11:1) is the real fulfillment, as Matthew states.

If you agree that the natural sons are the type, then I ask you what is the name of the antitype according to Matthew and Hosea?

See what I mean by you being AFRAID to admit so simple a thing? You simply cannot admit that Jesus is the real Israel.