Jesus prophesied that Sabbath would be kept by Christians until His return

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St. SteVen

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Well that's a clincher for me!
What they expected was for everyone to follow the Jewish tradition of the Sabbath.
In my opinion, they have no Sabbath Day because they denied the one who is the Lord of the Sabbath. Not only did they deny Him, they crucified Him!
There is no way I will ever follow any teaching of the Sabbath that comes directly from the Jewish Traditions.
As I understand it, the law was given by God through Moses to the Israelites alone.
In the Gospels we see the old covenant law being deconstructed, starting with the Forerunner. (John the Baptist)
"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John..." Then what?

Luke 16:16 NIV
“The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
 
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Heart2Soul

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Hmm, Adam named all the animals, so, could he have possibly named these too?
What does scripture say?
They used years of the ruling King to record their history and keep track of time.
Here is an example:
“And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king. Now I had not been beforetime sad in his presence.”
— Nehemiah 2:1 (KJV)

So this king had reigned 20 years so far.
 
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Heart2Soul

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Well written, but badly justified.

You wrote that Jesus is the Messiah, son of God, the lamb that was slain...... That's a foundation? It's an extension of the LAW.

Jesus didn't say He was son of God. Others said it of Him. Jesus said He was Son of Man. THAT identification has a very powerful meaning. Read Daniel 7:13. If that passage doesn't give you goose-bumps nothing can do it.

The LAW specifies WHY a lamb must be slain.
What's a messiah? The Hebrew meaning of ha-mashiach (messiah in English), is "the annointed One". Annointed for what, exactly?

Only three types of men were anointed of God; prophets, priests and kings. Jesus is all three. Most post-modern churches falsely teach their congregations that they are ALL anointed. Contribution$ flow nicely when you lie to people like that. False doctrine, which does NOT follow the LAW, can be very profitable in the god business.

The foundation that cannot be eroded is God's LAW. Upon the LAW must be based all true doctrine. If we deny the LAW we can make up any bogus religion we want. (L. Ron Hubbard did a fine job of it....very profitable indeed.)

BECAUSE the post-modern church has abandoned the LAW, it has also abandoned ha-mashiach - the root and source of its life. It cannot and does not live apart from ha-mashiach, the Christ.

The doctrine that Jesus (Y'shuah in Hebrew) is ha-mashiach isn't celebrated in all doctrines. In point of fact, the post-modern church denies the Bible completely. Major denominations have voted against it. (Episcopal, Methodist, Lutheran & Presbyterian to name a few.)

As we stand here today there's a problem with Christendom. The problem begins with a rejection of the LAW from which all appropriate doctrine proceeds.

Nice job though, Heart2soul. With a little real study you may become a scholar.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

I haven't written anything false. You misunderstand. Indeed you do it deliberately. Come and learn from one who knows.....

Jesus lived His whole life by the LAW (of Moses). He preached the LAW. He died by the LAW and He arose from His own tomb in the light of God's LAW. If the LAW is good enough for Jesus it's good enough for me. Are we so superior to God that we can cast away that which He lived and died to offer to men? The church believes it is. Inasmuch as the church makes itself god and judges God, it condemns itself and stands naked, without excuse, before the Holy Throne of heaven. I don't have authority to condemn it, but I do have the mandate to deliver to you that which I've seen and understood (Ezekiel 33).

IF you know not the LAW and refuse to learn its precepts, you will live the rest of your natural life in a strange maze of religious dogma never really coming to a full knowledge of the truth. Truth is that which is consistent with what IS - and Christ IS the epitome of the LAW....the fulness thereof. Here's a prediction: When times get worse for the church, as indeed they shall as indeed they already are, you will stand with others in amazement and ask 'what happened'. On that day you won't understand because you'll have denied God's Holy LAW, which alone can answer the question. (1)

THE LAW STILL STANDS.


Those who have tasted of the gracious gift of God's Ruach-haKodesh and who have accepted the blood of He who died upon the cross are those who are not under condemnation. Yet you seem to have forgotten that truth in your mad rush to condemn another - to abuse another who seeks only to teach you that which you do not understand.

Do you now seek to condemn one whom God does not condemn? Inasmuch as you do not know the LAW, you do.
Does God have to remind you of that which He has freely given and which you deny?
It is the LAW which has been given and it applies to the just as well as the unjust.
The difference is that HE who has written the LAW is the same who justifies - by the LAW.

You don't 'get it' do you? Please try. Please try very hard. Our true understanding of God's love depends upon it.

"He who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW." (Romans 2:29)

Here is a mystery: How shall a man be saved if he cannot see or hear God? Do you know? How does anyone begin their journey with God?

So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. (Galatians 3:24)

Do you know what Galatian 3:24 means? In our mad rush to flush God's LAW down the toilet of fanatic religious dogma we lose our way. Those who are NOT spiritually aware, are NOT spiritually regenerate, who are NOT saved, who have NO awareness of the Ruach haKodesh at all are given the opportunity of knowing, albeit in a limited temporary fashion. It's called the LAW. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17 kjv). The Word of God IS God's LAW.

Therefore God has given us His LAW to convict us of SIN. Being thus persuaded the LAW shows us the way to repentance, to forgiveness and to justification before Him. None of it is our own doing. It is all of God. This is called GRACE. All we are required to do is to accept it, by the LAW.

Here's another mystery: The really odd thing about all this is that Gentiles, as well as Jews, deny the LAW reject the LAW and substitute their own traditional dogma for it. (2) The mystery of lawLESSness, spoken of by Timothy (2 Tim 2:7), is at work amongst us all. In this do we all perish without it. For in rejecting God's LAW we reject and condemn God.

Shall we now condemn God for giving us His LAW, His TORAH?

PRAISE GOD FOR GIVING US HIS TORAH, His LAW.

Baruch ata Adonai, noten ha-Torah.


that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(1) Here is a mystery revealed - Luke 21:24 was fulfilled on June 5, 1967. As the times of the gentiles wither, so has the gentile church. Yet most of its leaders do not understand what's happening to them - to the church. We are here today standing over its dying body, watching the vultures tear it apart, while many of us hide our eyes from the sight.

(2) Many Reform Jewish congregations reject deny and refuse to be bound by Torah (the LAW), indeed the entire Tanakh (OT) as well.
Okay.
 

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You need to calm your words, sir. This is a discussion forum not a war zone.

It was man who named the days, weeks, months and so forth. It is man who determined what day of the week is the first and seventh...
A little bit of history for you...
The Ancient Greeks Named the Days of the Week After Their Gods
Sometime around the 12th century BC, the ancient Greek civilization grew in prominence, and they adopted the Babylonian system of marking time. They continued to recognize the prominence of the sun and the moon, calling two days of the week hemera helio (day of the Sun) and hemera selenes (day of the Moon).

The Romans Replaced the Names of the Greek Gods With Their Gods
Time kept on passing.
In the first century BC, the Roman Empire began to emerge. The Romans used the same seven-day system as the Greeks. And they considered the Greek gods to be the same as their own gods, simply called by different names. For example, the Romans looked at the Greek god of the sea, Poseidon, and were like, “Oh, that’s the same as our god of the sea, Neptune. He’s so powerful, people worship him everywhere, even though they call him by a different name.”

The Anglo-Saxons Replaced the Names of the Roman Gods with Their Gods
Time continued to march on. At the end of the 4th century AD, the Roman Empire fell, and Anglo-Saxon tribes began their conquest of Britain and Wales. One way they made a mark on the world was by renaming the days of the week yet again, after—guess who?—their gods.

Sunday, dies solis, became “Sonnandæg” in Old English. Monday changed from “dies Lunae” to Monandæg, as the Latin “luna” was swapped out for the Old English word for moon, “mōna.”
Thank you for your references quoted above. I wouldn't take the time to look them up, but they do serve well to illustrate how the post-modern church has debauched the gospel and itself.

I'm not the one making war here. It's my intent to teach those who know not the LAW and who resist God's Holy ordinance.

Your post seeks to do that which Jews failed to do and which the church attempts to do. It seeks to deny God's LAW and substitute another. Your post makes war upon God's LAW - upon God Himself.


I am referring to the Holy Bible and the ordinances set forth therein by GOD. I am NOT here to discuss secular history, pagan holidays, nationalistic rituals or secular philosophy. For the most part, these things dilute God's honest truth. If that is your intent here, then please do not presume to liken it to the Bible.

The prophet Daniel predicted that the spirit of anti-Christ would seek to do just as you are doing here:
He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. (Daniel 7:25)

All of your post seeks to change the set times and the laws set by God in His LAW.

It is not within the mandate of man to change God's LAW. Neither the philosophers of pagan lands nor priests of the church nor even those of God's chosen people who deny it are granted authority to change it. Nevertheless we have tried.

The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth. (Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V.)

The above is a quote from the Vatican, supposedly establishing its authority to rule all mankind upon the earth. The quote that follows is like it. The RCC herein attempts to change God's LAW regarding the sabbath (shabbat in Hebrew).

We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” (Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50)

God's LAW is immutable.

Neither the church, nor secular philosophy, nor aggrieved posters on the internet have the authority to change God's LAW, which defines the ONLY DAY to be set aside for worship, rest and prayer.

It has been argued that one can do those things at any other time and on any other day. Daily prayer is encouraged. Thanking God for our food at mealtime is encouraged. Appreciating God for His blessings at all times is in accord with Biblical witness. All of this is true and all of it is mandated, but the ONE DAY to be set aside for all to gather to honor and praise God is the 7th day.

THEREFORE...

As we return once again to the ORIGINAL POST in this thread the answer to the question is NO.

NO, Jesus did NOT predict that Christians would keep the sabbath on His return. He didn't say it because it isn't written. In all the protests made against the LAW nobody has quoted a single line of scripture to say this. They don't because they can't. It doesn't exist.

NO, Jesus didn't predict that Christians would keep the sabbath on His return. He didn't say it because those who followed Him, who were called disciples (students) at the time, WERE JEWS. Believers weren't called Christians until the days of the Antioch church (Acts 11:46). Some scholars suggest this label wasn't affixed to believers until decades after Jesus' ascension.

All that anyone seems to want to do here is to condemn God's LAW and anyone who attempts to establish it as a benchmark for the Judeo-Christian faith.

Do you not know that denial of God's LAW is to declare war against the Most High? (James 4:4)

To attempt to subvert the LAW is the devil's work (anti-Christ, to be specific). Jews tried it many times and each time God punished them severely. Apparently its now time for non-Jews to have a go at trying to subvert and contest God's LAW. As church types (*) attempt to destroy God's LAW, our churches commit an act of self-destruction. Indeed every theologian, RCC & protestant, argue this point with no little evidence to prove their assertions. Average church types deny it because they choose to hide their heads in the sand of forgetfulness.

Good luck with that, for you will not be arguing against another man this time. You will be arguing against the Most High. Even satan couldn't win such a battle. Opposing the LAW is a fool's errand.

if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor? (James 4:11-12)

It is better to humble ourselves and REPENT of our SINs and wickedness which we have committed against God, by the LAW.

In doing so we will discover forgiveness and justification to be saved, by the LAW.
We will not find it any other way for it is by the LAW that Christ fulfilled and perfected the LAW. (John 19:30)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) I use the generic term 'church types' in my posts to identify those who disregard Biblical precepts. I am well aware that many who call themselves Christian are true followers of Our Lord and are not hypocrites as so many today prove themselves to be. It is these hypocrites and liars who have hijacked our churches for their own agenda. CHRISTIANS know this to be true.
 
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And here is more history for you...
How Did People Count Years Before BC and AD?
Everyone used to count their years differently.
How Did People Count Years Before BC and AD?
The age of kings

The most common way to count the years was to tie the date to the current ruler, king, or emperor. This is readily apparent in many ancient texts, including the Bible. Passages will begin with the phrase “in x year of the reign of y ruler,” giving the reader the place in time. The reign of kings and emperors was carefully tracked and charted. For the learned of the population, the years of certain ruler’s reigns were just as easily understood as our current dating system.

This practice can be seen all over the globe in ancient times. The ancient Jews used it, and the Romans used it. The Japanese and Chinese used it. It is called the regnal year.

This was a readily adopted system throughout history for a number of reasons. First, it tied the counting of time to the current monarch, which lent the ruling person legitimacy and a strong presence with the people. Second, it was easy to adopt. Courts, historians, and clerks were already counting the years of kings, and it was an easy way to count the years in the kingdom without having to use or learn an external system.

To further refine, not oppose, your effort at counting years and times and epochs I'd like to point out that ALL ancient cultures marked the passage of time on LUNAR calendars. Muslims still do.

Jews still do, but they complicate matters by tracking BOTH lunar & solar times on their calendars. For instance, as of Feb. 2023 the current Jewish year is 5783 (Sept 2022 - Sept 2023 / Elul 5782 - Tishrei 5784). The odd 'wobbling' of the moon in its orbit around the earth results in the track of 3 separate lunar years on the Hebrew calendar versus 1 solar year on the Gregorian calendar. This is why Passover/Easter and Ramadan fall on different solar calendar days.

In October 1582 Pope Gregory XIII established the solar calendar we use today.
He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. (Daniel 7:25)
Once again we see evidence of a Catholic pope working to change the method by which humanity tracks time.

The difference between lunar and solar calendars is important especially when we attempt to discern Biblical references to the passage of time. Indeed, it is VERY important. Professional archaeologists are well aware of this calendar difference. Church types generally don't have a clue.

Most faux Christian novelizations, magazine articles and TV evangelists attempt to predict future events in two ways. First they quote scripture. Secondly they attempt to track the passage of time, both past and future, in accordance with the Gregorian calendar. Each and every time they go off the rails.

They err BECAUSE Biblical references are to Hebrew/Lunar calendar time (as well as the current monarch) NOT Gregorian time (established in 1582). They are doubly wrong and doom their predictions to failure each and every time.

[A personal note] I discovered this anomaly when I researched my books on Atlantis (which, btw, really existed). Plato's record is assumed by many novelists as being dated in Gregorian time, but Plato's chronicle tracked time in Lunar years. (Plato did NOT write the only record of Aullagas. The Inca had one too.) Therefore I estimated the destruction of the city of Aullagas at circa 1300-1400 BCE Gregorian time. (The natives called their own city Aullagas. Plato renamed the city Atlantis because Greeks are always right about everything.) Confused lunar/solar estimates incorrectly place it thousands of years earlier.

Why do I bring up Aullagas? Because the influence of its people, also called Sea People by some archaeologists, affected those of Canaan. The Bible calls these Sea People - Philistines. Philistines constantly made war upon God's people Israel. They did so by asserting the SAME gods as those worshipped by those of Aullagas, which was located in Bolivia not in the ocean. (Google Aullagas. You can actually see the ruins if you know how to use Google Earth). Bear in mind that no culture of the Levant exercised human sacrifice until the arrival of the Philistines - who brought it from Aullagas, S.A.


To return to the discussion at hand, the use of the Gregorian calendar poses problems when one attempts to draw inferences from scripture into the modern epoch. The problem arises when the use of the Lunar calendar by the ancients is disregarded. Other problems arise when Mosaic LAW is also disregarded for in its words is hidden the key to unlock the mystery of our future. It's called The Year of Jubilee and its occurrence has been the subject of much debate by the Jewish Rabbinate (who use the Lunar calendar) as well as false pseudo Christian prophets who use the Gregorian calendar.

Jews get it wrong because they lost the key (Mark 13:32) to the Year of Jubilee.
Gentiles get it wrong because they insist upon using the Gregorian calendar.

The rest of us pay our tithes and offerings and mindlessly listen to the rubbish both groups publish.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
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Illuminator

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You need to calm your words, sir. This is a discussion forum not a war zone.
Seventh Day Adventists, and offshoots thereof, always make forums a war zone. They MUST interpret everything through the lens of their "holy and infallible" occult channelist, E.G. White. So history, meaningless official looking church documents, the papacy, current events, even the Bible itself, must be interpreted through the lens of occultic visions, in order to fulfil demonic "prophecies". It's a bondage.
 
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Seventh Day Adventists, and offshoots thereof, always make forums a war zone. They MUST interpret everything through the lens of their "holy and infallible" occult channelist, E.G. White. So history, meaningless official looking church documents, the papacy, current events, even the Bible itself, must be interpreted through the lens of occultic visions, in order to fulfil demonic "prophecies". It's a bondage.
Again, I've not made war on anyone. I think I made that statement earlier. Did you read it?

NOW UNABLE to make your point by scripture, history or Biblical reference you now resort to attacks upon my character - ad hominem.

Thank you for admitting defeat. Since you can't make a point any other way, you now resort to ignorant references. If you're going to attack my character you need to get it right.

I'm not a 7th Day Adventist, which you seem to be aware of. (I'm not familiar with their brand of dogma.)
I'm not an occultist, which you seem to embrace because of your overly familiar references to demons.
I'm not a member of a Christian church, which you obviously aren't familiar with either as evidenced by your complete lack of gospel knowledge.

I'm a Messianic JEW.

No doubt you will now switch to anti-semitic hate mongering rhetoric - typical of self-important Church types. You seem to know a great deal about accusations and so little about the Bible.

Did you even bother to check my profile references? If you did you'd read my religious preferences there. You'd also discover that I have a Master's Degree in Theology and Church History. What do you have, perfect attendance at Sunday School? Or perhaps you missed the lesson on humility.

Personal contact with you and your brand of Christianity would make anyone feel soiled. You really need to clean up your act and learn something about the gospel. Start with Genesis 1:1 and work your way along. If your educational level is too low you may ask someone to read it for you. Avoid big words.

You obviously know nothing at all about the gospel, though I've honestly and vigorously tried to illuminate you.

Any time you wish to lose your opinionated Biblically illiterate attitude I'll be glad to continue in a more gentle fashion.

As for now I can only appeal to the Lord to judge between us - unless of course you believe you've already taken His place.

Jesus isn't someone you're familiar with. If you were you'd act like Him.
It's sad, really. You demonstrate clear evidence there's so much for you to learn.

Jesus said the Pharisees who argued against Him were like a nest of vipers. (Matt 12:34)
I suspect your home address is with them.

Proverbs says pride goes before a fall. The news flash for today is that you just stumbled.
Proverbs also says a wise man will pick himself up again and continue on his journey.

If you are willing to continue this dance, so am I. Either way I remain.....

... hollering from the choir loft...
 
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Seventh Day Adventists, and offshoots thereof, always make forums a war zone. They MUST interpret everything through the lens of their "holy and infallible" occult channelist, E.G. White. So history, meaningless official looking church documents, the papacy, current events, even the Bible itself, must be interpreted through the lens of occultic visions, in order to fulfil demonic "prophecies". It's a bondage.
As I understand it, the law was given by God through Moses to the Israelites alone.
In the Gospels we see the old covenant law being deconstructed, starting with the Forerunner. (John the Baptist)
"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John..." Then what?

Luke 16:16 NIV
“The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
You misunderstand because you've been taught to deny the efficacy and the purpose of the LAW (of Moses).
It should be clearly understood that neither Jesus nor anyone else abolished the LAW. (Matthew 5:17) Was Jesus lying when he spoke the words quoted by Matthew?

If not, then;

THE LAW STILL STANDS.

Did you know there are two laws? More about that later.....

If the LAW of God was given to Israel alone, then it's ok for gentiles to lie cheat steal and murder. Is that right?
Actually gentiles DO all these things, which pretty much classifies them as a lawless mob of SINNERS doomed to death.

What about John 3:16, or is that just for Jews too?

If the LAW doesn't apply to anyone except Jews, then GENTILES CANNOT BE SAVED. This isn't true because the LAW applies to everyone (see John 3:16). The LAW convicts of SIN, which leads to REPENTANCE forgiveness and justification.

The Bible was written BY JEWS, FOR JEWS. The love of God gave the Bible to Gentiles who also needed to be saved, by the LAW.

I addressed the subject of the LAW as guardian previously. You obviously didn't read my post.

How can a man be saved if he cannot see, hear, taste, touch or smell God?

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, by the LAW.

Luke 16:16 says the LAW was proclaimed until John the Immerser, Baptizer and witness to the arrival of the annointed One.
What was the message John proclaimed? Do you know? Read Matthew 3:1.

"John came...saying...REPENT for the kingdom of heaven is near."

What I've been saying all along is repeated in the verse you brought to our attention. REPENTANCE MUST COME FIRST. Again, the purpose of the LAW is to convict of SIN. Being thus convinced of SIN, one normally is led to REPENTANCE. Therefore I write;

NO ONE CAN BE SAVED APART FROM THE LAW.

Again: the LAW is presented, as a temporary Guardian, to those who cannot see, hear, taste, touch or feel God. It's the ONLY WAY for man to learn about God BEFORE being spiritually born again. The LAW is temporary because once it is believed and acted upon the savior enters to forgive, justify and to begin the process of sanctification.

Once one is born again, born of the Holy Spirit, the LAW is written in that person's heart and upon their lives. Being thus enabled, God then continues the process of teaching in a personal way. The LAW of Christ isn't abolished because it's made perfect by the Spirit of Christ who comes to live with us and in us. It becomes permanent. The LAW of Moses is no longer an external guardian, but it can continue to teach us God's way - God's truth. It becomes a bench mark and a measure of good doctrine. Those who try to establish false doctrine inevitably depart from the LAW.

The purpose of GRACE is to glorify God in the life of the believer, NOT TO CONDONE LICENTIOUSNESS as many now preach and believe.

I hope this helps and that you've read and understood what I've written.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
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ReChoired

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I hope not.

John 9:16 NIV
Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”
But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

John 5:18 NIV
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

cc: @Jim B
John 5 vs 18 Jesus 'Broke' The Sabbath - Nutshell Image.png
 
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