I don't understand something. My Bible tells me that Jesus died on the cross and has risen. Jewish people don't believe he has risen yet, that He could be born as any male child at any time.Yet Jesus says that the Jews are His chosen people. Are they going to Heaven even though they don't believe He is risen?
Jews and Salvation
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Hope you don't mind if I comment on this question as well - you ask interesting things
As I understand it, Judaism only recognises the Old Testament, not the new. Therefore Jesus is not seen as the prophesied Messiah of the OT.But the NT tells us that:Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved. ( Rom 11:25-26 )And what do you understand from Rom 11:28-32 written by Paul to the gentiles about the Jews:"As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."Just some thoughts on a tricky issue!
Hi KalixxI always believed that the Jews would be saved as God's Chosen people but never realy studied the subject. Rom 11:28-32 excellent verses I must try to put them to memory Thanks Kevin
Yes, I think it is an interesting passage. But I always have difficulty grasping whether the bible is talking about races or individuals! I.e. is "Israel" those people who happen to exist at the time being talked about or does it include all who have ever lived and will live in the future. The OT seems to talk more on the general level of nations whereas the NT seems to be more about individuals...Judas Iscariot was presumably a Jew.........If it is the case that all Israel is saved purely on the basis of descent but gentiles only by faith then this seems a little biased and out of line with Paul's message that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile.But the bible does also talk about Jews only being descendants of Abraham through faith and not through birth. So maybe it is not so cut and dried
(blessed76;36896)
I don't understand something. My Bible tells me that Jesus died on the cross and has risen. Jewish people don't believe he has risen yet, that He could be born as any male child at any time.Yet Jesus says that the Jews are His chosen people. Are they going to Heaven even though they don't believe He is risen?
I am a Jewish Believer and there are more and more of us every day.The original church was almost all Jewish in the 1st century.The 12 apostles were all Jewish.Paul was a Jewish Pharisee or Rabbi.My point is, that blindness, in part, has come to Israel, but soon that judgment will be lifted and the whole house of Israel will know Yeshua as Messiah! The 144,000 will be a powerful evangelical force in the last days. All of them will be Jews.
I don't understand something. My Bible tells me that Jesus died on the cross and has risen. Jewish people don't believe he has risen yet, that He could be born as any male child at any time.Yet Jesus says that the Jews are His chosen people. Are they going to Heaven even though they don't believe He is risen?
I am a Jewish Believer and there are more and more of us every day.The original church was almost all Jewish in the 1st century.The 12 apostles were all Jewish.Paul was a Jewish Pharisee or Rabbi.My point is, that blindness, in part, has come to Israel, but soon that judgment will be lifted and the whole house of Israel will know Yeshua as Messiah! The 144,000 will be a powerful evangelical force in the last days. All of them will be Jews.
(1 of 3 Martyrs;36958)
I am a Jewish Believer and there are more and more of us every day.The original church was almost all Jewish in the 1st century.The 12 apostles were all Jewish.Paul was a Jewish Pharisee or Rabbi.My point is, that blindness, in part, has come to Israel, but soon that judgment will be lifted and the whole house of Israel will know Yeshua as Messiah! The 144,000 will be a powerful evangelical force in the last days. All of them will be Jews.
First thing you have said that I actually agree with...............
Oh gosh I must be coming down with that new strain of Flu virus thats going around I actually said I agree with 1 of 3, yep I am sick thats for sure......
I am a Jewish Believer and there are more and more of us every day.The original church was almost all Jewish in the 1st century.The 12 apostles were all Jewish.Paul was a Jewish Pharisee or Rabbi.My point is, that blindness, in part, has come to Israel, but soon that judgment will be lifted and the whole house of Israel will know Yeshua as Messiah! The 144,000 will be a powerful evangelical force in the last days. All of them will be Jews.
First thing you have said that I actually agree with...............
Oh gosh I must be coming down with that new strain of Flu virus thats going around I actually said I agree with 1 of 3, yep I am sick thats for sure......Um, a teacher once told me that are no stupid questions. I hope that's true.I still don't get this. Sorry! I'm trying, I really am. I've read and re-read the responses. I must be missing something here.
I am not exactly sure what it is your wanting to know. The best place to seek your answer is too read the Old Testament. (Torah) in Judaism. They have a Written Word and an Oral Word. But thats neither here nor there. It is true that the Jews are Messiahs chosen people. Look up Judaism (Google) it you will find your answers there unless some one chimes in here. And yes it is true that Judaism only recognizes the OT but they also follow several other Texts in conjunction with the OT thats what they call (Torah)......go here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism
(blessed76;36896)
I don't understand something. My Bible tells me that Jesus died on the cross and has risen. Jewish people don't believe he has risen yet, that He could be born as any male child at any time.Yet Jesus says that the Jews are His chosen people. Are they going to Heaven even though they don't believe He is risen?
========================================================No the jewish people who during their time of grace. That is their eartly life those Jews who never believe in Jesus as their only savior from sin are not going to be in heaven there going to hell.John 3:18-19
I don't understand something. My Bible tells me that Jesus died on the cross and has risen. Jewish people don't believe he has risen yet, that He could be born as any male child at any time.Yet Jesus says that the Jews are His chosen people. Are they going to Heaven even though they don't believe He is risen?
========================================================No the jewish people who during their time of grace. That is their eartly life those Jews who never believe in Jesus as their only savior from sin are not going to be in heaven there going to hell.John 3:18-19
Don't buy it. 80% of the Jewish community does not believe that Jesus is the saviour or Messiah. They don't believe that prophecy in the OT ever fulfilled Jesus as the saviour.
99% of the world's gentiles don't know Yeshua as their saviour either!America honors God with their mouths, but their hearts are far from Him.Most Americans worship an Idol, a false Jesus made to conform to their own standards.
(1 of 3 Martyrs;37224)
99% of the world's gentiles don't know Yeshua as their saviour either!America honors God with their mouths, but their hearts are far from Him.Most Americans worship an Idol, a false Jesus made to conform to their own standards.
Thats a strong statement I hope you got something to back it up.
99% of the world's gentiles don't know Yeshua as their saviour either!America honors God with their mouths, but their hearts are far from Him.Most Americans worship an Idol, a false Jesus made to conform to their own standards.
Thats a strong statement I hope you got something to back it up.
(1 of 3 Martyrs;37224)
99% of the world's gentiles don't know Yeshua as their saviour either!America honors God with their mouths, but their hearts are far from Him.Most Americans worship an Idol, a false Jesus made to conform to their own standards.
Matthew 7:1Someones relationship with the Lord is between that person and the Lord only. You have no right to pass judgment on someone else's faith, nor are you in a position to even comment on it from behind a computer screen
99% of the world's gentiles don't know Yeshua as their saviour either!America honors God with their mouths, but their hearts are far from Him.Most Americans worship an Idol, a false Jesus made to conform to their own standards.
Matthew 7:1Someones relationship with the Lord is between that person and the Lord only. You have no right to pass judgment on someone else's faith, nor are you in a position to even comment on it from behind a computer screen
(JonJT;37246)
Matthew 7:1Someones relationship with the Lord is between that person and the Lord only. You have no right to pass judgment on someone else's faith, nor are you in a position to even comment on it from behind a computer screen
Like I said. You got something to back that up 1 of 3? JonJt is right, dead right.
Matthew 7:1Someones relationship with the Lord is between that person and the Lord only. You have no right to pass judgment on someone else's faith, nor are you in a position to even comment on it from behind a computer screen
Like I said. You got something to back that up 1 of 3? JonJt is right, dead right.
tim_from_pa
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(blessed76;36896)
I don't understand something. My Bible tells me that Jesus died on the cross and has risen. Jewish people don't believe he has risen yet, that He could be born as any male child at any time.Yet Jesus says that the Jews are His chosen people. Are they going to Heaven even though they don't believe He is risen?
Blessed, let me clarify somethings for you, but I lack the time tonight to go into excessive detail.What you (and most people) do not realize is that there is an election of race, and there's an election of grace.the earth, and all therein is a mirror of spiritual things and indeed, they coexist. God has chosen (a race) as a family on this earth as light-bearers to the fallen world. Initially they received the Law. this is a physical family and very real people that were/are supposed to emulate God's spiritual Laws. Included in that are provisions for God's grace, open to all both of the race and non-race.It is possible to be chosen of race, receive the Kingdom, receive the promises, and yet lack personal salvation, although lacking that is not God's intent. But for the promise's sake, God still has a chosen race with all the earthly, material blessing that goes with it for the purpose of being a light and blessing to the rest so that grace may come. And even if they do not bring light, because He promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the people would be blessed.Now for the surprising part. The Jews are not 12 tribes, but basically 2. The nation of Israel split (like the United States) into two parts: the house of Israel in the north and the house of Judah to the south. The rest of the ten tribes of Israel were in exile and never returned to the land the way the Jews did. These would become the purveyors of the New Covenant, and thus seen as "Gentiles" and Paul even addressed these Israelites as such. Yet, in actuality, if we study the Bible carefully, the promises actually went to them. The Jew basically had the right to rule and law-making function. That is it. The Jew does not have the birthright. The tribe of Joseph does, and Joseph became gentile nations (just as Joseph became a Gentile) into the world and became the Christian nations we have today, traditionally Britain, NW Europe incl Scandinavian nations, and ultimately the United States.On a side note here, this is why one disciple rejected Jesus--- Judas. Judas was a type of Judah, the Jew. But the other "tribes" of disciples actually were receptive to Christianity, as Israel is receptive. But the Jew is not receptive.I already did a thread about the birthright found here: Birthright
I don't understand something. My Bible tells me that Jesus died on the cross and has risen. Jewish people don't believe he has risen yet, that He could be born as any male child at any time.Yet Jesus says that the Jews are His chosen people. Are they going to Heaven even though they don't believe He is risen?
Blessed, let me clarify somethings for you, but I lack the time tonight to go into excessive detail.What you (and most people) do not realize is that there is an election of race, and there's an election of grace.the earth, and all therein is a mirror of spiritual things and indeed, they coexist. God has chosen (a race) as a family on this earth as light-bearers to the fallen world. Initially they received the Law. this is a physical family and very real people that were/are supposed to emulate God's spiritual Laws. Included in that are provisions for God's grace, open to all both of the race and non-race.It is possible to be chosen of race, receive the Kingdom, receive the promises, and yet lack personal salvation, although lacking that is not God's intent. But for the promise's sake, God still has a chosen race with all the earthly, material blessing that goes with it for the purpose of being a light and blessing to the rest so that grace may come. And even if they do not bring light, because He promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the people would be blessed.Now for the surprising part. The Jews are not 12 tribes, but basically 2. The nation of Israel split (like the United States) into two parts: the house of Israel in the north and the house of Judah to the south. The rest of the ten tribes of Israel were in exile and never returned to the land the way the Jews did. These would become the purveyors of the New Covenant, and thus seen as "Gentiles" and Paul even addressed these Israelites as such. Yet, in actuality, if we study the Bible carefully, the promises actually went to them. The Jew basically had the right to rule and law-making function. That is it. The Jew does not have the birthright. The tribe of Joseph does, and Joseph became gentile nations (just as Joseph became a Gentile) into the world and became the Christian nations we have today, traditionally Britain, NW Europe incl Scandinavian nations, and ultimately the United States.On a side note here, this is why one disciple rejected Jesus--- Judas. Judas was a type of Judah, the Jew. But the other "tribes" of disciples actually were receptive to Christianity, as Israel is receptive. But the Jew is not receptive.I already did a thread about the birthright found here: Birthright
(tim_from_pa;37312)
Blessed, let me clarify somethings for you, but I lack the time tonight to go into excessive detail.What you (and most people) do not realize is that there is an election of race, and there's an election of grace.the earth, and all therein is a mirror of spiritual things and indeed, they coexist. God has chosen (a race) as a family on this earth as light-bearers to the fallen world. Initially they received the Law. this is a physical family and very real people that were/are supposed to emulate God's spiritual Laws. Included in that are provisions for God's grace, open to all both of the race and non-race.It is possible to be chosen of race, receive the Kingdom, receive the promises, and yet lack personal salvation, although lacking that is not God's intent. But for the promise's sake, God still has a chosen race with all the earthly, material blessing that goes with it for the purpose of being a light and blessing to the rest so that grace may come. And even if they do not bring light, because He promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the people would be blessed.Now for the surprising part. The Jews are not 12 tribes, but basically 2. The nation of Israel split (like the United States) into two parts: the house of Israel in the north and the house of Judah to the south. The rest of the ten tribes of Israel were in exile and never returned to the land the way the Jews did. These would become the purveyors of the New Covenant, and thus seen as "Gentiles" and Paul even addressed these Israelites as such. Yet, in actuality, if we study the Bible carefully, the promises actually went to them. The Jew basically had the right to rule and law-making function. That is it. The Jew does not have the birthright. The tribe of Joseph does, and Joseph became gentile nations (just as Joseph became a Gentile) into the world and became the Christian nations we have today, traditionally Britain, NW Europe incl Scandinavian nations, and ultimately the United States.On a side note here, this is why one disciple rejected Jesus--- Judas. Judas was a type of Judah, the Jew. But the other "tribes" of disciples actually were receptive to Christianity, as Israel is receptive. But the Jew is not receptive.I already did a thread about the birthright found here: Birthright
Well said Tim.........
Blessed, let me clarify somethings for you, but I lack the time tonight to go into excessive detail.What you (and most people) do not realize is that there is an election of race, and there's an election of grace.the earth, and all therein is a mirror of spiritual things and indeed, they coexist. God has chosen (a race) as a family on this earth as light-bearers to the fallen world. Initially they received the Law. this is a physical family and very real people that were/are supposed to emulate God's spiritual Laws. Included in that are provisions for God's grace, open to all both of the race and non-race.It is possible to be chosen of race, receive the Kingdom, receive the promises, and yet lack personal salvation, although lacking that is not God's intent. But for the promise's sake, God still has a chosen race with all the earthly, material blessing that goes with it for the purpose of being a light and blessing to the rest so that grace may come. And even if they do not bring light, because He promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the people would be blessed.Now for the surprising part. The Jews are not 12 tribes, but basically 2. The nation of Israel split (like the United States) into two parts: the house of Israel in the north and the house of Judah to the south. The rest of the ten tribes of Israel were in exile and never returned to the land the way the Jews did. These would become the purveyors of the New Covenant, and thus seen as "Gentiles" and Paul even addressed these Israelites as such. Yet, in actuality, if we study the Bible carefully, the promises actually went to them. The Jew basically had the right to rule and law-making function. That is it. The Jew does not have the birthright. The tribe of Joseph does, and Joseph became gentile nations (just as Joseph became a Gentile) into the world and became the Christian nations we have today, traditionally Britain, NW Europe incl Scandinavian nations, and ultimately the United States.On a side note here, this is why one disciple rejected Jesus--- Judas. Judas was a type of Judah, the Jew. But the other "tribes" of disciples actually were receptive to Christianity, as Israel is receptive. But the Jew is not receptive.I already did a thread about the birthright found here: Birthright
Well said Tim.........
Let me understand what exactly you mean Tim. Are you pointing out the fact that God has a chosen people and he will bless them forever- well I agree He has a chosen people, but remember when the Lord used Moses to speak to the people and told them if they worshiped the Lord they would be more than blessed...YET if they turned from God- they would be scattered, defeated time after time, live in fear...ect. I personally, I am trying to find my answers from the Word, believe John 14:6 to apply to all."No man comes to the Father but through me"Jew and Gentile...Also- IF the Father accepted these chosen stickly due to blood and not really accepting then Luke 10:16 wouldnt make much sense.
tim_from_pa
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(Red_Letters88;37868)
Let me understand what exactly you mean Tim. Are you pointing out the fact that God has a chosen people and he will bless them forever- well I agree He has a chosen people, but remember when the Lord used Moses to speak to the people and told them if they worshiped the Lord they would be more than blessed...YET if they turned from God- they would be scattered, defeated time after time, live in fear...ect. I personally, I am trying to find my answers from the Word, believe John 14:6 to apply to all."No man comes to the Father but through me"Jew and Gentile...Also- IF the Father accepted these chosen stickly due to blood and not really accepting then Luke 10:16 wouldnt make much sense.
You misunderstood me completely. I was talking about chosen of race, not grace. The Israelites have the earthly promises regardless. True, the birthright blessings can be withheld for a season (like parents keeping rewards from a child) due to disobedience, but it is still theirs, with the purpose of bringing grace to the fallen world. And when they did that, that's when the blessings were no longer withheld.Now please reread what I stated before (quoted here) carefully:It is possible to be chosen of race, receive the Kingdom, receive the promises, and yet lack personal salvation, although lacking that is not God's intent. But for the promise's sake, God still has a chosen race with all the earthly, material blessing that goes with it for the purpose of being a light and blessing to the rest so that grace may come. And even if they do not bring light, because He promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the people would be blessed.
Let me understand what exactly you mean Tim. Are you pointing out the fact that God has a chosen people and he will bless them forever- well I agree He has a chosen people, but remember when the Lord used Moses to speak to the people and told them if they worshiped the Lord they would be more than blessed...YET if they turned from God- they would be scattered, defeated time after time, live in fear...ect. I personally, I am trying to find my answers from the Word, believe John 14:6 to apply to all."No man comes to the Father but through me"Jew and Gentile...Also- IF the Father accepted these chosen stickly due to blood and not really accepting then Luke 10:16 wouldnt make much sense.
You misunderstood me completely. I was talking about chosen of race, not grace. The Israelites have the earthly promises regardless. True, the birthright blessings can be withheld for a season (like parents keeping rewards from a child) due to disobedience, but it is still theirs, with the purpose of bringing grace to the fallen world. And when they did that, that's when the blessings were no longer withheld.Now please reread what I stated before (quoted here) carefully:It is possible to be chosen of race, receive the Kingdom, receive the promises, and yet lack personal salvation, although lacking that is not God's intent. But for the promise's sake, God still has a chosen race with all the earthly, material blessing that goes with it for the purpose of being a light and blessing to the rest so that grace may come. And even if they do not bring light, because He promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the people would be blessed.
Letter G-d does have a chosen people. Jesus was a Jewish carpenter everyone knows that. G-d scattered the Jews as you said because they did not believe or worship him. As far as being more blessed than anyone else Christian or whatever only G-d can answer that. Tims right....
(Two;37873)
Letter G-d does have a chosen people. Jesus was a Jewish carpenter everyone knows that. G-d scattered the Jews as you said because they did not believe or worship him. As far as being more blessed than anyone else Christian or whatever only G-d can answer that. Tims right....
Wait,First of all, I did misunderstand Tim. Ive reread and have caught where I took his post incorrectly.second, I thought the main focus of this given topic was wether or not Jews who dont accept Christ as the messiah recieve salvation. and last Two- I never said there was not a chosen people, I never said Jesus and his disciples were not Jewish....so reread me too
Letter G-d does have a chosen people. Jesus was a Jewish carpenter everyone knows that. G-d scattered the Jews as you said because they did not believe or worship him. As far as being more blessed than anyone else Christian or whatever only G-d can answer that. Tims right....
Wait,First of all, I did misunderstand Tim. Ive reread and have caught where I took his post incorrectly.second, I thought the main focus of this given topic was wether or not Jews who dont accept Christ as the messiah recieve salvation. and last Two- I never said there was not a chosen people, I never said Jesus and his disciples were not Jewish....so reread me too
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