John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

[PinSeeker]

...God has no trouble as seeing the Christ in us, 100% now and it'll be that way until we see ourselves as He sees us right now.

That God sees us that way is indisputable, as we are covered by the blood of Christ. But yet... we are not "100% now" conformed to Christ. We will be, one great day, the Day of Christ, but not yet. For now, though, we are regarded by the Father as He regards Christ because we are in Christ, but we are not yet fully like Him (we are being made like Him by the Spirit, through this lifelong process we call sanctification ~ we are being made holy. As men, Rich, we still possess our first ~ sinful ~ nature. This is the "old man" that Paul exhorts us to "put off" and then to "put on the new." The Spirit, our Helper, is helping us. So, again, we will be; this is an absolute certainty, but is not the case yet. This is the point.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Both Paul and Jesus himself, said that the Father is the only true God. How then is the son God?

in referring to the Father as the only true God, both Jesus and Paul were contrasting God with the world’s false gods\idols, and not with Jesus Himself, Rich. Context matters; it cannot be disregarded by me or you or anyone else.

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

 

[Rich R]

in referring to the Father as the only true God, both Jesus and Paul were contrasting God with the world’s false gods\idols, and not with Jesus Himself, Rich. Context matters; it cannot be disregarded by me or you or anyone else.

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

I absolutely agree with you about context, but how would the context change the simple statement that only the Father is God?

If anything, the overall context that Jesus is the son of God (never called God the Son), would indicate that Jesus is not the Father and therefore not the true God. Of course the last phrase does rely on logic, so maybe that's why you discount it?

The overall context also says that God is the head of Christ (trinity says all equal), that God knew things Jesus didn't know, that Jesus grew in wisdom, that Jesus had a different will than God, that Jesus did not have his own doctrine, that he followed God's doctrine, that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, that Jesus was tempted whereas God can't be tempted. Not to mention the half dozen times Jesus is explicitly called a man vs. the zero times he is explicitly called God. Many many more, but I can't wrap my brain around a son being his own Father. That darn logic keeps getting in the way of believing nonsense.

 

[PinSeeker]

I guess all in all, you really do shun logic.

I guess, all in all, the exact same of you, Rich.

How do you make sense out of anything?

The same way you do; I just don't... manufacture it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

That God sees us that way is indisputable, as we are covered by the blood of Christ. But yet... we are not "100% now" conformed to Christ. We will be, one great day, the Day of Christ, but not yet. For now, though, we are regarded by the Father as He regards Christ because we are in Christ, but we are not yet fully like Him (we are being made like Him by the Spirit, through this lifelong process we call sanctification ~ we are being made holy. As men, Rich, we still possess our first ~ sinful ~ nature. This is the "old man" that Paul exhorts us to "put off" and then to "put on the new." The Spirit, our Helper, is helping us. So, again, we will be; this is an absolute certainty, but is not the case yet. This is the point.

Grace and peace to you.

I see what you are saying, but my perception of myself does not negate how God sees me. I, like Jesus, trust His doctrine and will over my own. If He says I'm as righteous as He is, them that's what I confess. No caveats required nor introduced.

Rom 3:21-22,

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
​

"Now" is now.

 

[Rich R]

I guess, all in all, the exact same of you, Rich.


The same way you do; I just don't... manufacture it.

Grace and peace to you.

1) Only the Father is God
2) Jesus is not the Father
3) Jesus is not God

Where's the break in logic there? Changing #3 to "Jesus is God" is pretty much the epitome of illogical. Therefore (being logical ), one must abandon logic to say Jesus is God. Do you not see the irony of John 1 using logic (logos) to supposedly show something totally illogical?

 

[PinSeeker]

I absolutely agree with you about context...

Says he who then takes it right back out of context (yet again).

If anything, the overall context that Jesus is the son of God (never called God the Son), would indicate that Jesus is not the Father and therefore not the true God. Of course the last phrase does rely on logic, so maybe that's why you discount it?

If the proper context of both Jesus and Paul was as you want to limit it to, then it would be very logical. But you get the context wrong (maybe intentionally, but whether intentional or unintentional matters not; it is what it is), so the logic you apply, you do so in error. I discount nothing, Rich. It's like golf. You may make a beautiful move at the ball, a seemingly picture-perfect swing. But if the clubface is slightly open, the ball is going to banana right (or left if you're a southpaw) deep into the woods. There's your parable for the day.

I can't wrap my brain around a son being his own Father. That darn logic keeps getting in the way of believing nonsense.

LOL! The Son is not the Father, but they are ~ most assuredly ~ one; we agree on that. See above. Hope you get rid of that slice, my friend.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

"Now" is now.

Like Abraham, Rich, we believe God ~ at least I do; I cannot speak for you ~ and it is credited to us as righteousness (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3). We do not have any righteousness of our own, in and of ourselves... yet.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[BarneyFife]

Both Paul and Jesus himself, said that the Father is the only true God. How then is the son God?

That's quite a leap to say that God sending Jesus implies Jesus is God. Geez...doesn't one person sending another usually mean two people?

I guess all in all, you really do shun logic. How do you make sense out of anything?

Yes, if one doesn't interpret the entirety of what the Scripture says about God's "nature" as others do, then they must really, simply shun logic, and must, therefore, be unable to make sense out of anything. And that's certainly no leap, is it?

When I was a child, I was taught that expressions like "Geez" and other abbreviated forms of God's name used in frustration or frivolity constituted a violation of the 3rd commandment, but I suppose that was just old-fashioned logic-shunning, no? Especially since the ten commandments themselves are now considered just relics of ignorance and legalism, eh?

By the way, am I imagining things or has your manner of addressing folks changed quite a bit since you first showed up here?

 

[BarneyFife]

We do not have any righteousness of our own, in and of ourselves... yet.

Righteousness has always been and will always be by faith, no?

 

[PinSeeker]

1) Only the Father is God
2) Jesus is not the Father
3) Jesus is not God

Where's the break in logic there?

Your statement number 1 is taken out of the context in which it is made, both by Jesus and Paul. So, the the conclusion, though logical in the strictest sense, is wrong. Do we have to keep doing this over and over again? Isn't that the definition of insanity, doing something over and over and over again and hoping for a different result?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[BarneyFife]

1) Only the Father is God
2) Jesus is not the Father
3) Jesus is not God

Where's the break in logic there? Changing #3 to "Jesus is God" is pretty much the epitome of illogical. Therefore (being logical ), one must abandon logic to say Jesus is God. Do you not see the irony of John 1 using logic (logos) to supposedly show something totally illogical?

Do you believe there's anything in the spiritual/supernatural (not mystical) realm that defies human logic?

 

[PinSeeker]

Righteousness has always been and will always be by faith, no?

We are clothed in the righteousness of Christ. And where does our faith, which is the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen, come from, Barn? Do you not believe that it is given to us by God, by His Spirit, who convicts?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[BarneyFife]

We are clothed in the righteousness of Christ. And where does our faith come from, Barn? Do you not believe that it is given to us by God?

Grace and peace to you.

How do you get that out of what I said?

 

[PinSeeker]

How do you get that out of what I said?

You seemed to be implying that our righteousness is our own, of ourselves. Faith, too. If not, then good on ya.

Grace and peace to you

 

[Rich R]

When I was a child, I was taught that expressions like "Geez" and other abbreviated forms of God's name used in frustration or frivolity constituted a violation of the 3rd commandment, but I suppose that was just old-fashioned logic-shunning, no? Especially since the ten commandments themselves are now considered just relics of ignorance and legalism, eh?

I never heard that "Geez" is using God's name in vain. I always took it as a shortened "Gee whiz," but thanks for pointing out the speck in my eye.

While the ten commandments were written to Israel and not the church, we can still learn from them (Romans 15:4).

By the way, am I imagining things or has your manner of addressing folks changed quite a bit since you first showed up here?

Maybe I get a bit snarky with those who are snarky with me. Of course that just means I'm sinking to their level which is admittedly not ideal. That darn flesh! But I do keep telling everyone and anyone that I love them as my brother or sister. That hasn't changed and I don't expect it will.

 

[user]

The Triune GOD is how I perceive GOD. You are wasting your time trying to convince me otherwise. I've thought through this concept with the guidance of the Holy Spirit for 31 years. I am baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit - thank you very much!

Is the NAME of your son = "Son"?

 

[Rich R]

Do you believe there's anything in the spiritual/supernatural (not mystical) realm that defies human logic?

No. God is the epitome of logic. John 1:1 even says straight out that, "...and the word (logos, logic) was God." Seems logical enough to me.

The Gnostics were great at elevating spiritualism above logic. One had to abandon logic and be "initiated into the mysteries" to understand God.

 

[PinSeeker]

The microscopic, pre-embryonic of Jesus' origins was not a man yet...

Um, what? This seems to be... not a complete sentence... Jesus was always in existence from all eternity...

...an embryo under development from the egg cell of Mary being fertilized. At that point, "God" was only visible under a microscope.

Agreed (although there were no microscopes in those days...). But still, God he was then. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

"God" first had to mate with Mary's egg cell by creating the sperm cell.

The Holy Spirit came upon Mary (this is not a physical "mating," of course), and she became pregnant with child (Jesus).

...which qualified Jesus some day as the son of God/son of man.

Well, it was what it was then, and still is, and thus shall always be. Again... the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[APAK]

Righteousness has always been and will always be by faith, no?

Amen...
Phil 3 :8-10... What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,..(NIV)