John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

[PinSeeker]

Do you believe there's anything in the spiritual/supernatural (not mystical) realm that defies human logic?

I realize this question was directed at Rich, but I will point out ~ and I'm sure you are well aware of this ~ what Isaiah quotes God as saying:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways..." (Isaiah 55:8-9)​

And we are in the same position as David, when he declares:

"Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it." (Psalm 139:6)​

There is a body of true logic ~ probably vast in scope; God is infinite, after all ~ that we cannot attain to. You know this, I'm sure.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[BarneyFife]

While the ten commandments were written to Israel and not the church, we can still learn from them (Romans 15:4).

Who could have seem that coming?

thanks for pointing out the speck in my eye.

Thanks for pointing out the beam in mine.

Perhaps it would have been better to leave you alone.
Personally, I would prefer that people point out to me when I'm breaking one of God's commandments.
And I would never accuse them of being judgmental for doing so, even by implication.

You know, it's a peculiar thing:
People don't like when you warn them about being disobedient in one of ten ways, but they don't mind at all if you point out one of the hundreds of ways you can be wrong according to the New Testament/Covenant.

Wait: Yes, they do.

 

[BarneyFife]

I realize this question was directed at Rich, but I will point out ~ and I'm sure you are well aware of this ~ what Isaiah quotes God as saying:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways..." (Isaiah 55:8-9)​

And we are in the same position as David, when he declares:

"Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it." (Psalm 139:6)​

There is a body of true logic ~ probably vast in scope; God is infinite, after all ~ that we cannot attain to. You know this, I'm sure.

Grace and peace to you.

It's exackitickally what I had in mind.

 

[BarneyFife]

Amen...
Phil 3 :8-10... What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,..(NIV)

In view of how things are going, I don't know if this is an affirmation or a rebuke.

Oh... I just noticed the "Amen."

 

[Rich R]

but I suppose that was just old-fashioned logic-shunning, no? Especially since the ten commandments themselves are now considered just relics of ignorance and legalism, eh?

Well, there is this,

Gal 3:1-3,

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
​

Does that mean the law is a relic of ignorance and legalism? I wouldn't go there, but I suppose some folks draw that conclusion.

​

 

[Waiting on him]

Verse 14 there clarifies that it is Jesus being spoken of in John 1:1-4.

John 1:14

Also tells us when the beginning was.

 

[BarneyFife]

No. God is the epitome of logic. John 1:1 even says straight out that, "...and the word (logos, logic) was God." Seems logical enough to me.

The Gnostics were great at elevating spiritualism above logic. One had to abandon logic and be "initiated into the mysteries" to understand God.

But wouldn't going to the other end of the extreme 'Gnostic' pendulum position kinda rule out the necessity for regeneration? And isn't there more to challenge human logic in the Bible than just Christology?

 

[BarneyFife]

Well, there is this,

Gal 3:1-3,

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
​

Does that mean the law is a relic of ignorance and legalism? I wouldn't go there, but I suppose some folks draw that conclusion.

​

They certainly do.

In fact, to suggest that you're the exception to the rule would be a definite understatement.

 

[APAK]

In view of how things are going, I don't know if this is an affirmation or a rebuke.

Oh... I just noticed the "Amen."

I strongly agree with you BF....

 

[PinSeeker]

I never heard that "Geez" is using God's name in vain. I always took it as a shortened "Gee whiz,"

Those are actually modifications of 'Jesus,' Whose name people also use from time to time in expletive form. And yes, is another form of using God's name in vain. 'Gosh,' 'golly,' and the like are modifications of 'God,' and there is no difference in principle or effect.

While the ten commandments were written to Israel and not the church, we can still learn from them (Romans 15:4).

Israel was always the Church, and vice-versa. The Israelites of old are us, and we are them. They are our fathers, as the writer of Hebrews says (Hebrews 1:1). So, the Ten Commandments are just as relevant today as they were when they were given to the Israelites. They are a mirror reflecting the glory of God. They are an exposition of His love. As redeemed people who bear His name in the world, God calls us to live lives of love that reflect who He is, and what that looks like is spelled out in the Ten Commandments.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

Who could have seem that coming?

Thanks for pointing out the beam in mine.

Perhaps it would have been better to leave you alone.
Personally, I would prefer that people point out to me when I'm breaking one of God's commandments. And I would never accuse them of being judgmental for doing so, even by implication.


You know, it's a peculiar thing:
People don't like when you warn them about being disobedient in one of ten ways, but they don't mind at all if you point out one of the hundreds of ways you can be wrong according to the New Testament/Covenant.

Wait: Yes, they do.

You don't have to leave me alone. I know my sins and I thank God for forgiving me and cleansing me from all unrighteousness when I confess them to Him (1 John 1:3).

1 Cor 4:3-5,

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
​

So do we want to talk about scripture or specks and beams? I cast my vote for the former. Assuming your vote is the same, do you understand the Commandments to be given to Israel, Gentiles, or the Church? Also, did the death and resurrection of Jesus change anything regarding the requirement to follow the law for righteousness?

To be clear, No, I don't see the commandments as a relic. They have their place, but, as I pointed out, Galatians 2:1-3 says they won't make anybody righteous nor will they make the Christian perfect.

 

[Grailhunter]

Grailhunter’s Corner

The Bible explains the truth in about 200 ways.
In explainations and examples.

 

[Rich R]

Those are actually modifications of 'Jesus,' Whose name people also use from time to time in expletive form. And yes, is another form of using God's name in vain. 'Gosh,' 'golly,' and the like are modifications of 'God,' and there is no difference in principle or effect.


Israel was always the Church, and vice-versa. The Israelites of old are us, and we are them. They are our fathers, as the writer of Hebrews says (Hebrews 1:1). So, the Ten Commandments are just as relevant today as they were when they were given to the Israelites. They are a mirror reflecting the glory of God. They are an exposition of His love. As redeemed people who bear His name in the world, God calls us to live lives of love that reflect who He is, and what that looks like is spelled out in the Ten Commandments.

Grace and peace to you.

Gal 3:1-3,

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
​

Perhaps you could consider Jesus' admonition,

Matt 22:37-40,

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.​

That's what Jesus said to Israel (Matt 15:24) and Paul confirmed it in the NT writing to the church (Gal 1:2).

Gal 5:14,

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
​

Before the day of Pentecost, it was not available to have the love of God in one's hearts, so they needed a schoolmaster (Gal 3:24), the law, to keep themselves form causing too much damage until the Messiah came. But now, thanks to the new birth and God in Christ Christ in us, we have the love of God in our hearts (Rom 5:5, the NT), so we can walk in a higher plane.

 

[farouk]

IS a what, appears as a He.
It is suitable for you to send your word forth out of your mouth, orally, or in text or perhaps via a puppet as a ventriloquist ...
God BEING a spirit, can appear as whatever (a manKIND of thing, an animalKIND of thing, a bush planKIND of thing) and speak.
- We see man mimicking via media, electronics...Appearance of talking animals, talking plants.

BTW, I do have a ventriloquist doll, am fair at talking without lip movement....fun for kids. My youngest deaf child, likes the “doll”, the movements, but ofcourse very compromised for lip reading.

It comes back to the eternal preexistence of the Son. It was the Son Who was given (John 3.16); 'by Whom also He made the worlds' (Hebrews 1)' 'without Him was not anything made that was made' (John 1).

 

[Rich R]

But wouldn't going to the other end of the extreme 'Gnostic' pendulum position kinda rule out the necessity for regeneration? And isn't there more to challenge human logic in the Bible than just Christology?

Not sure what you are asking about the Gnostic pendulum.

Perhaps I should have been more clear, but I'm not talking about human logic. I was trying to say that God Himself is the epitome of logic. In fact I see no human logic whatsoever in the Bible.

 

[Truther]

With the exception of John the Baptist, God did give holy spirit by measure to certain folks before Pentecost. After Pentecost it is Christ in us (Col 1:27) without any indication that it is only part of Christ.

So either not all of the Godhead dwelt in Christ, or not all of Christ dwells in us. Is one of those what you are saying?

Also, it's also worth noting Col 2:10. The Word "complete" in that verse is the same root word as "fullness" in verse 9. Do you see any relevance there to the discussion?

Jesus was given the Holy Ghost without measure, implying that everyone else is given the Spirit by measure.

No relevance.

We are complete in Jesus via the Col 2:9 effect on his omnipresent body.

 

[Truther]

Um, what? This seems to be... not a complete sentence... Jesus was always in existence from all eternity...


Agreed (although there were no microscopes in those days...). But still, God he was then. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.


The Holy Spirit came upon Mary (this is not a physical "mating," of course), and she became pregnant with child (Jesus).


Well, it was what it was then, and still is, and thus shall always be. Again... the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Grace and peace to you.

Jesus is still microscopic?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

John 17:1-3,

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

Jesus was talking to his Father and called Him the only true God. This is in complete agreement with Corinthians.

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
​

Again, the Father is called the one God.

John calls Jesus the son more than 50 times and never calls him the Father.

John 1:1,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
​

If we say Jesus is God then that means he is either the Father (which is totally counter to the Creeds) or he is not the true God (John 17:3) nor the one God (1 Cor 8:6).

Many solve the problem by finding out exactly what the "word" (logos) is in John 1:1. Hint: it's not Jesus.

Please confine the discussion to these verses in John. All the other so-called proof verses don't change what John clearly said. All verses have to fit.

Jesus is not God the Father. He is God the son. YOu make the same error that teh JW's do. YOu confuse the persons and the natures.

the father is God above all. However though Jesus is inferior in His position in the godhead, He is equal to His Father in His divinity.

Teh generic term god both identifies a person (persons) and a nature.

 

[BarneyFife]

Jesus is not God the Father. He is God the son. YOu make the same error that teh JW's do. YOu confuse the persons and the natures.

the father is God above all. However though Jesus is inferior in His position in the godhead, He is equal to His Father in His divinity.

Teh generic term god both identifies a person (persons) and a nature.

Would you like to tell us about the nature of God?

 

[BarneyFife]