John 17 - The Name

[dak]

Yohanne 17:24-26
אבי חפצתי כי גם הם אשר נתתם לי יהיו עמי באשר אהיה אני למען יחזו את כבוד נתת לי כי אהבתני לפני מוסדות תבל׃
אבי הצדיק הן התבל לא ידעך ואני ידעתיך ואלה הכירו כי אתה שלחתני׃
ואני הודעתים את שמך ואוסיף להודיעם למען תהיה בם האהבה אשר אהבתני ואני אהיה בהם׃​

John 17:24-26
24 My Father, I desire that these also which you have given to me be with me where I am, [אהיה] that they may behold the glory You have given to me because You loved me before the foundation of the world.
25 O my Righteous Father, the world has not known You, buy I have known You, and these have known that You have sent me:
26 And I have made known to them Your Name, and will continue to make it known, that the love with-which [אשר] You have loved me might be in them, and I shall be [אהיה] in them.

אהיה אשר אהיה ~ Exodus 3:14

.

 

[soberxp]

אהיה אשר אהיה ~ Exodus 3:14

.

I shall be which I am? Not "I am that I am."?

 

[dak]

I shall be which I am? Not "I am that I am."?

My primary intent was to show that the Name is indeed found in the text, but only in Hebrew, and secondly the likelihood of this Gospel account having been originally written in Hebrew.

John 1:1 and Jesus’ Sonship in Adoptionist thought

Happy for you @dak to post your insights and belief here. Thanks HT

www.christianityboard.com

As for the meaning and understanding of what is found there, and in Exodus 3:14, we are all to be taught of Elohim and not of men, (Isa 53:13, Jer 31:34, Jhn 6:45).

 

[soberxp]

My primary intent was to show that the Name is indeed found in the text, but only in Hebrew, and secondly the likelihood of this Gospel account having been originally written in Hebrew.

John 1:1 and Jesus’ Sonship in Adoptionist thought

Happy for you @dak to post your insights and belief here. Thanks HT

www.christianityboard.com

As for the meaning and understanding of what is found there, and in Exodus 3:14, we are all to be taught of Elohim and not of men, (Isa 53:13, Jer 31:34, Jhn 6:45).

Do you know the translation in the Chinese Bible?
I exist by myself，I exist forever.(not the I am that I am)
I find the Chinese translation difficult to express in English.

 

[dak]

Do you know the translation in the Chinese Bible?

No, sorry, I am not familiar with Chinese.

I exist by myself，I exist forever.(not the I am that I am)
I find the Chinese translation difficult to express in English.

Here is a clue:

שמות 3:14 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants Only)
ויאמר אלהים אל־משה אהיה אשר אהיה ויאמר כה תאמר לבני ישראל אהיה שלחני אליכם׃​

Exodus 3:14
14 And Elohim said to Mosheh, אהיה אשר אהיה, and He said, Thus shall you say to bnei Yisrael: אהיה has sent me unto you.

Bnei Yisrael, (the sons of Yisrael), did not know the Tetragrammaton, (see Exodus 6:3) for it was not known until it was revealed to Mosheh in the Exodus 3 passage. Before that time the ancients, even from before the flood, had essentially three names for the Most High: El, Yahh, and either El Yah or Yah El, (evidence: Names of God, (Negev Rock Inscriptions)), and also El Shaddai or El Shaddi, (Exodus 6:3).

How therefore would bnei Yisrael recognize אהיה and by that understand who exactly Mosheh was speaking about so as to believe him? (Exodus 3:18a, "And they shall hearken to your voice").

Therefore this portion of the Name must broken down into each individual letter: but scholars follow only the Pharisaic-Masoretic pointed version of the ancient Hebrew text which the Masoretes essentially resurrected and modernized, and therefore they cannot see it, for they do not even confess a particle of existence in Biblical Hebrew, which is an incorrect assumption on the part of all of them.

In the original Ashuri (Assyrian) block script, from about the time of Ezra, there was no separation of the text the way we think of it today and see it in the Masoretic text: instead, the waw also served as a word separator, (which made the text very difficult to read and understand), and the script was in a form of scriptio continua very similar to the oldest Greek Uncials of the Apostolic writings.

So the Hebrew letter Waw served in three capacities: a letter used in the formation of words, a particle of continuance, and a word separator, (and there are even places where it appears to serve as punctuation, (like a simple full stop or a colon or a semicolon)). And in addition to this the Hebrew letter Hei also served in three capacities, a letter used in the formation of words, the definite article, and a particle of existence, (is, exist, be, was, shall be, etc., etc.).

אהיה ~ "I AM HE WHO IS", and יה is "HE WHO IS".
And bnei Yisrael would have surely known the name יה.

Now then, if you study out and understand what I have presented, you will not need me to explain the rest.

 

[soberxp]

No, sorry, I am not familiar with Chinese.



Here is a clue:

שמות 3:14 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants Only)
ויאמר אלהים אל־משה אהיה אשר אהיה ויאמר כה תאמר לבני ישראל אהיה שלחני אליכם׃​

Exodus 3:14
14 And Elohim said to Mosheh, אהיה אשר אהיה, and He said, Thus shall you say to bnei Yisrael: אהיה has sent me unto you.

Bnei Yisrael, (the sons of Yisrael), did not know the Tetragrammaton, (see Exodus 6:3) for it was not known until it was revealed to Mosheh in the Exodus 3 passage. Before that time the ancients, even from before the flood, had essentially three names for the Most High: El, Yahh, and either El Yah or Yah El, (evidence: Names of God, (Negev Rock Inscriptions)), and also El Shaddai or El Shaddi, (Exodus 6:3).

How therefore would bnei Yisrael recognize אהיה and by that understand who exactly Mosheh was speaking about so as to believe him? (Exodus 3:18a, "And they shall hearken to your voice").

Therefore this portion of the Name must broken down into each individual letter: but scholars follow only the Pharisaic-Masoretic pointed version of the ancient Hebrew text which the Masoretes essentially resurrected and modernized, and therefore they cannot see it, for they do not even confess a particle of existence in Biblical Hebrew, which is an incorrect assumption on the part of all of them.

In the original Ashuri (Assyrian) block script, from about the time of Ezra, there was no separation of the text the way we think of it today and see it in the Masoretic text: instead, the waw also served as a word separator, (which made the text very difficult to read and understand), and the script was in a form of scriptio continua very similar to the oldest Greek Uncials of the Apostolic writings.

So the Hebrew letter Waw served in three capacities: a letter used in the formation of words, a particle of continuance, and a word separator, (and there are even places where it appears to serve as punctuation, (like a simple full stop or a colon or a semicolon)). And in addition to this the Hebrew letter Hei also served in three capacities, a letter used in the formation of words, the definite article, and a particle of existence, (is, exist, be, was, shall be, etc., etc.).

אהיה ~ "I AM HE WHO IS", and יה is "HE WHO IS".
And bnei Yisrael would have surely known the name יה.

Now then, if you study out and understand what I have presented, you will not need me to explain the rest.

But I think the pronunciation of God's name sounds like
Grandpa and Baby/child

In Chinese language.

We know that the chaos of language was something God did at the time of the Tower of Babel, so the interesting thing is, when I understood this fact, I found a lot of interesting phenomena in English.


The English pronunciation of the church is transliterated into Chinese and then translated into English, that is, clean wings.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yohanne 17:24-26
אבי חפצתי כי גם הם אשר נתתם לי יהיו עמי באשר אהיה אני למען יחזו את כבוד נתת לי כי אהבתני לפני מוסדות תבל׃
אבי הצדיק הן התבל לא ידעך ואני ידעתיך ואלה הכירו כי אתה שלחתני׃
ואני הודעתים את שמך ואוסיף להודיעם למען תהיה בם האהבה אשר אהבתני ואני אהיה בהם׃​

John 17:24-26
24 My Father, I desire that these also which you have given to me be with me where I am, [אהיה] that they may behold the glory You have given to me because You loved me before the foundation of the world.
25 O my Righteous Father, the world has not known You, buy I have known You, and these have known that You have sent me:
26 And I have made known to them Your Name, and will continue to make it known, that the love with-which [אשר] You have loved me might be in them, and I shall be [אהיה] in them.

אהיה אשר אהיה ~ Exodus 3:14

.

I like to use the Jewish Tanakh for the Hebrew because the Tetragrammaton is clearly seen in the text even though it is substituted with a title (Adonai) in the English translation.
Exodus 3:13-15....

13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"		יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"		ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.“		טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

What is interesting is the translation given here....It’s not “I Am”.....but “I Will Be What I Will Be”. And this makes sense because the God of Israel, whom they knew as descendants of Jacob was going “to be” to his people what they had never seen before. They already knew that he existed, but not in the way that they would see his power demonstrated against the Egyptians in liberating them from the grip of their stubborn Pharaoh.

What does John 17:24-26 really say in context?....

24 My Father, I desire that these also which you have given to me be with me where I am, [אהיה]“

Read the way it was said....Jesus is telling his Father that he desired that those he had given him (his disciples) would be where he was....why?

“So that they may behold the glory You have given to me because You loved me before the foundation of the world”.
He was on earth when he said that, indicating that he wanted his disciples to be where he was going...in heaven....to behold his glory in his heavenly body, given to him by his Father.

“O my Righteous Father, the world has not known You, but I have known You, and these have known that You have sent me”....

His disciples knew who he was, even if the world did not.....and they knew who it was that “sent” him.

“And I have made known to them Your Name, and will continue to make it known”

.....whose name was Jesus making known? Not his own name, but the name of his God and Father. Why did he need to say that? Because the Jews had ceased uttering God’s name in their speech, but had retained it in their Scripture. He would return his Father’s name to its rightful place and declare it to his followers....and continue to make it known to all who heard him.

“that the love with-which [אשר] You have loved me might be in them, and I shall be [אהיה] in them.”

“Shall be”...”will be”...same thing.....but what is he talking about? “LOVE”....the same kind of love that Jesus shares with his Father, would be shared with his disciples also.

“אהיה אשר אהיה” ~ Exodus 3:14.....”I Will Be What I Will Be”.

 

[soberxp]

.

“אהיה אשר אהיה” ~ Exodus 3:14.....”I Will Be What I Will Be”.

This explanation is reasonable and consistent with scientific observations in quantum mechanics, the double-slit interference experiment, People always think that their own observations change the results of light,
but the truth is. ”I Will Be What I Will Be”.

Jesus compares himself to light and nothing else for a reason.

 

[soberxp]

“אהיה אשר אהיה” ~ Exodus 3:14.....”I Will Be What I Will Be”.

Just as many people do not understand that what God did during the Great Flood contradicts what God did in the Gospels,

..”I Will Be What I Will Be”.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Just as many people do not understand that what God did during the Great Flood contradicts what God did in the Gospels,

..”I Will Be What I Will Be”.

God has demonstrated all through the Scriptures that he will accomplish his will no matter what humans or the devil does to hinder it.
The conditions on earth prior to the flood were extreme because of demonic interference. God stepped in with a solution that not only dealt with the situation, but provided an example for the future. (Matt 23:37-39)

The meaning of God’s name says it all......he will “be” or “become” whatever he needs to be, in order to bring his purpose to successful fulfilment. (Isa 55:11)

 

[dak]

I like to use the Jewish Tanakh for the Hebrew because the Tetragrammaton is clearly seen in the text even though it is substituted with a title (Adonai) in the English translation.
Exodus 3:13-15....

13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"		יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"		ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.“		טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

What is interesting is the translation given here....It’s not “I Am”.....but “I Will Be What I Will Be”. And this makes sense because the God of Israel, whom they knew as descendants of Jacob was going “to be” to his people what they had never seen before. They already knew that he existed, but not in the way that they would see his power demonstrated against the Egyptians in liberating them from the grip of their stubborn Pharaoh.

What does John 17:24-26 really say in context?....

24 My Father, I desire that these also which you have given to me be with me where I am, [אהיה]“

Read the way it was said....Jesus is telling his Father that he desired that those he had given him (his disciples) would be where he was....why?

“So that they may behold the glory You have given to me because You loved me before the foundation of the world”.
He was on earth when he said that, indicating that he wanted his disciples to be where he was going...in heaven....to behold his glory in his heavenly body, given to him by his Father.

“O my Righteous Father, the world has not known You, but I have known You, and these have known that You have sent me”....

His disciples knew who he was, even if the world did not.....and they knew who it was that “sent” him.

“And I have made known to them Your Name, and will continue to make it known”

.....whose name was Jesus making known? Not his own name, but the name of his God and Father. Why did he need to say that? Because the Jews had ceased uttering God’s name in their speech, but had retained it in their Scripture. He would return his Father’s name to its rightful place and declare it to his followers....and continue to make it known to all who heard him.

“that the love with-which [אשר] You have loved me might be in them, and I shall be [אהיה] in them.”

“Shall be”...”will be”...same thing.....but what is he talking about? “LOVE”....the same kind of love that Jesus shares with his Father, would be shared with his disciples also.

“אהיה אשר אהיה” ~ Exodus 3:14.....”I Will Be What I Will Be”.

The problem with your conclusion, ”I Will Be What I Will Be”, is that in the very next verse, (Exo 3:15), the Tetragrammaton derives from that very statement and is not spoken by Mosheh but to Mosheh, (in other words it is the interpretation of the Most High Himself).

Exodus 3:15 TS2000
15 And Elohim said further to Mosheh, “Thus you are to say to the children of Yisra’ĕl, ‘יהוה Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Aḇraham, the Elohim of Yitsḥaq, and the Elohim of Ya‛aqoḇ, has sent me to you. This is My Name forever, and this is My remembrance to all generations.’

The difference is that the Tetragrammaton is not in the first person, (I am, I shall be), but rather in the third person as when a man would speak the Name, (HE WHO IS AND WHO WAS AND WHO SHALL BE). Moreover we have this understanding already provided for us in the scripture elsewhere, in the Apocalypse, which is yet another text that was almost no doubt originally written in Hebrew, and we do have several surviving Hebrew manuscripts and fragments containing the passages and full plene spelling of the Tetragrammaton. The full text of the Apocalypse in Hebrew which I will quote from has been translated in its entirety and may be viewed here:

Hebrew Revelation | HebrewGospels.com

The first ever complete English translation and Hebrew transcript of an authentic Hebrew manuscript of Revelation! In the introductory sections to the translation, we discuss the following topics: Was Revelation originally written in Hebrew or Greek? What is the Hebrew Title for the Book of...

www.hebrewgospels.com

(click on "View Translation and Transcript", or click here to skip the main page).

In the first occurrence, (Rev 1:4), we find, שהיה והוה ויהיה, (according to the translator this is an incorrect word order). The shin is being employed in an archaic form as a single letter prefix representing the relative pronoun, (asher, who, what, where, etc.,), but does not have to do with relative pronoun in the Name found in Exodus 3:14. The reading, at least in imo, is technically correct, which says, "WHO WAS AND IS AND SHALL BE", (but the word order neither agrees with the LXX rendering of the third occurrence of EHYAH, nor with the relevant passages in the first chapter of the Apocalypse).

In the second occurrence, (Rev 1:8), we find, ההיה והוה ויהיה, which is perfect form, "THE ONE WHO WAS AND IS AND SHALL BE", (but again wrong word order). Thus we have the full plene spelling and pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton from the Apocalypse, (a Kohen as per other studies), and in the correct word order it would be in perfect harmony with the first statement in Exo 3:14.

Where the Greek text of the Apocalypse is faulty is in rendering the final portion, (who is to come), and the error is manifestly evident because the Father is omnipresent: the heavens and the heaven of the heavens cannot contain Him, (Deut 10:14, 1Kgs 8:27, 2Chr 2:6, 6:18), and if one could ascend into the heavens, He is already there, and if one could descend into Sheol, He is already there, (see Psa 139:7-12).

Thus "ο ερχομενος", ("THE ONE TO COME" or "THE ONE COMING") is a Greek corruption of the text. And why might this be the case if it was indeed intentional? It would be for the reason that the Meshiah, foretold through Mosheh in Deut 18:15-19, was the one to come, meaning that the early church translator or translators who rendered the Apocalypse from Hebrew into Greek were attempting to make the Anointed One appear to be equal with the Father.

Search "ο ερχομενος" in the N/T Greek, (which I am pretty sure you, as a JW, are quite familiar with), and you will see that it is used for the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts, especially the Gospel now called John, concerning the one who in the Torah, (and Prophets), was prophesied to come, and is not speaking of the Father who is both omnipresent and also does not change.

 

[Aunty Jane]

In the first occurrence, (Rev 1:4), we find, שהיה והוה ויהיה, (according to the translator this is an incorrect word order, but I do not agree with his reading of the verbs). The shin is being employed in an archaic form as a single letter prefix representing the relative pronoun, (asher, who, what, where, etc.,), but does not have to do with relative pronoun in the Name found in Exodus 3:14. The reading, at least in imo, is correct, which says, "WHO IS AND WAS AND SHALL BE".

I will start by saying that I am by no means a Hebrew or Greek scholar but rely on those who are.

Moses’ original question to his God was about his name and what he should tell the people. They had lived in Egypt for generations by this time and the new Pharaoh was treating them harshly, apparently not aware of why the Israelites were even in Egypt under Joseph’s original protection......except that they were slaves to do his bidding....and he didn’t want to give them up.

God’s response was....

“God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"		ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑הוַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.“		טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

The reason why I trust this rendering is because it sits well with the rest of what the Scriptures teach about the identity of the true God and how he came to lead Israel out of slavery in a display that shook the Egyptian nation to its core, and resulted in not only the awful effects of the 10 plagues, but also the loss of Pharaoh and his entire army in the Red Sea.

This was the start of the nation’s dedication to Yahweh and their history as recorded in Scripture to show us the blessings and the maledictions that befell this wayward people.

the second occurrence, (Rev 1:8), we find, ההיה והוה ויהיה, which is perfect, "THE ONE WHO IS AND WAS AND SHALL BE". Thus we have the full plene spelling and pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton from the author of the Apocalypse, (a Kohen as per other studies), and it is in perfect harmony with the first statement in Exo 3:14.

Is this not simply confirming God’s eternal existence...?
The rendering from Chabad is more in keeping with what God was going to “be” or to “become” to Israel, as their rescuer ......he was still their God, but in a more direct way than what they had known in their sojourn in Egypt. Moses was instructed to give them God’s name....a name that they unfortunately brought reproach upon in their errors as time progressed.....

Where the Greek text of the Apocalypse is faulty is in rendering the final portion, (who is to come), and the error is manifestly evident because the Father is omnipresent: the heavens and the heaven of the heavens cannot contain Him, (Deut 10:14, 1Kgs 8:27, 2Chr 2:6, 6:18), and if one could ascend into the heavens, He is already there, and if one could descend into Sheol, He is already there, (see Psa 139:7-12).

The Father is not spoken of as Omnipresent .....Omniscient and Omnipotent....but God is given a location by Jesus himself....(Matt 6:9)
1 Kings 8:43 also gives God one location...a ”dwelling place”......heaven.

From his vantage point, he is all seeing and all knowing.

Heb 9:24 ESV.....
“For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.”

Thus "ο ερχομενος", ("THE ONE TO COME" or "THE ONE COMING") is a Greek corruption of the text. And why might this be the case if it was indeed intentional? It would be for the reason that the Meshiah, foretold through Mosheh in Deut 18:15-19, was the one to come, meaning that the early church translator or translators who rendered the Apocalypse from Hebrew into Greek were attempting to make the Anointed One appear to be equal with the Father.

Yes...Jesus was “the prophet like Moses” who was “to come”. His ministry was in many ways reflective of the one Moses was commissioned to undertake....another rescue mission, to liberate the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” from the negligence of their wicked shepherds....and to feed them and give them life-giving water as Moses had done in the wilderness.

God’s “anointed one” (Christ) was his firstborn son, who did not ever compete with his God and Father for prominence or position, but humbly taught his Jewish brethren the difference between true worship and false worship, making God’s name known to them, after the Jews had lost its correct pronunciation.

God’s name was first on Jesus’ list of priorities when giving the model prayer.....a prayer that was never given to recite by rote on all occasions. (Matt 6:9)

John 1:18....”No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” (NASB)

The “only begotten god” there is “monogenes theos” indicating that the title “theos” applies to both the Father and the son. It means “divine” and is used of any who are of divine origin, or who are appointed as God’s representatives. (John 10: 31-36)

Jesus is both.

 

[dak]

I will start by saying that I am by no means a Hebrew or Greek scholar but rely on those who are.

Moses’ original question to his God was about his name and what he should tell the people. They had lived in Egypt for generations by this time and the new Pharaoh was treating them harshly, apparently not aware of why the Israelites were even in Egypt under Joseph’s original protection......except that they were slaves to do his bidding....and he didn’t want to give them up.

God’s response was....

“God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"		ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑הוַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.“		טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

The reason why I trust this rendering is because it sits well with the rest of what the Scriptures teach about the identity of the true God and how he came to lead Israel out of slavery in a display that shook the Egyptian nation to its core, and resulted in not only the awful effects of the 10 plagues, but also the loss of Pharaoh and his entire army in the Red Sea.

This was the start of the nation’s dedication to Yahweh and their history as recorded in Scripture to show us the blessings and the maledictions that befell this wayward people.


Is this not simply confirming God’s eternal existence...?
The rendering from Chabad is more in keeping with what God was going to “be” or to “become” to Israel, as their rescuer ......he was still their God, but in a more direct way than what they had known in their sojourn in Egypt. Moses was instructed to give them God’s name....a name that they unfortunately brough reproach upon in their errors as time progressed.....

You do not see that whatever the Father "was going to 'become' to Israel" constitutes a change? He always was, is, and will be anything and all that anyone of us needs Him to be that we may live. Anyway, I have presented my case and you have presented yours, and we disagree: so I will leave it at that and agree to disagree.

The Father is not spoken of as Omnipresent .....Omniscient and Omnipotent....but God is given a location by Jesus himself....(Matt 6:9)
1 Kings 8:43 also gives God one location...a ”dwelling place”......heaven. From his vantage point, he is all seeing and all knowing.

Heb 9:24 ESV.....
“For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.”

Well, yes, He is indeed spoken of as omnipresent even though that particular modern word is obviously not found in ancient texts: it is taught in passages in the scripture, some of which I already quoted and-or referenced. What your statement above boils down to is an anthropomorphic view of the Almighty Creator which is entirely unacceptable for me. So again, I will simply agree to disagree.

Yes...Jesus was “the prophet like Moses” who was “to come”. His ministry was in many ways reflective of the one Moses was commissioned to undertake....another rescue mission, to liberate the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” from the negligence of their wicked shepherds....and to feed them and give them life giving water as Moses had done in the wilderness.

God’s “anointed one” (Christ) was his firstborn son,

"God’s “anointed one” (Christ) was his firstborn son,"

Then why does everyone call him "Jesus" ???

Exodus 4:22 TS2000
22 “And you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus said יהוה, “Yisra’ĕl is My son, My first-born,

Matthew 12:16-21 ASV
16 and charged them that they should not make him known:
17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through Isaiah the prophet, saying,
18 Behold, my servant whom I have chosen; My beloved in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my Spirit upon him, And he shall declare judgment to the Gentiles.
19 He shall not strive, nor cry aloud; Neither shall any one hear his voice in the streets.
20 A bruised reed shall he not break, And smoking flax shall he not quench, Till he send forth judgment unto victory.
21 And in his name shall the Gentiles hope.

This is quoting Isaiah 42:1-4 from the LXX-Septuagint.
Have you ever looked to see what is written there?

Isaiah 42:1-4 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton English Translation)
1 Jacob is my servant, I will help him: Israel is my chosen, my soul has accepted him; I have put my Spirit upon him; he shall bring forth judgement to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor shall his voice be heard without.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench; but he shall bring forth judgement to truth.
4 He shall shine out, and shall not be discouraged, until he have set judgement on the earth: and in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

Luke 9:35 ASV
35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my Son, my chosen: hear ye him.

John 1:18....”No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” (NASB)

The “only begotten god” there is “monogenes theos” indicating that the title “theos” applies to both the Father and the son. It means “divine” and is used of any who are of divine origin, or who are appointed as God’s representatives. (John 10: 31-36)

Jesus is both.

"Jesus is both."

I have already addressed this in several threads because my view is not well known, being a form of Adoptionism, and I desired not to hide that and rather be up front about it with everyone here. In my view, the Chosen One is the Anointed One, which is the Meshiah or Christos.

The eternal Son is the Logos-Word and Spirit of the Father, (for testimony is spirit, whether for the good, or whether for the evil). The Son has neither beginning nor end, nor genealogy, and is even the Wisdom of YHWH Elohim the Most High, our heavenly Father. The Son is not a man: he is the Spirit of the Father upon the Anoinjted One, Meshiah, who was and is a man, now resurrected by the Spirit of the Father which was upon him throughout his ministry and crucifixion. The Son is the Dove in the immersion accounts.

The Son is ever-always in the bosom of the Father at His right hand side:

Logos Logic

If anyone will, follow the simple systematic logic in the following emphatic statements of the Meshiah, and there is a reward to come for doing so, (once the relative consequences to doctrine are understood and carried out in the faithful one). First off: Point #1 The term ho logos in John...

www.christianityboard.com

So although I agree to disagree with you on much in your post above:
I do thank you for a polite and civil conversation.

Peace.