Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Until now I'd only heard of "air brakes".
Are these like "hydraulics"? LOL
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Until now I'd only heard of "air brakes".
Are these like "hydraulics"? LOL
LOL That's exactly what I'd had in mind.
To say Galatians 4 taught that "water baptism" birthed "slaves" is to say that water baptism represents the heresy, the "accursed" "false Gospel" Galatians 1:6-9, of putting men under the works of the Law Galatians 4:21 Galatians 5:11 ("preaching")--that is impossible of course, since water baptism is an integral facet of Christianity, which is to be accepted, and never rejected, whereas the false Gospel that puts men under Law is to be rejected--because that was what Paul was militating against throughout that epistle.Not water baptism itself, but the repentance that water baptism represents. John's baptism, the baptism for repentance, births a natural man. Jesus' baptism by the Spirit births a spiritual man.
The man born of flesh, the man of works: "...the son born according to the flesh..." Galatians 4:29
The man born of the Spirit, the man of faith: "...the son born by the power of the Spirit..." Galatians 4:29
Sorry to butt in to this but the very fact that it’s on the same subject as the last post makes it rather disconcerting. The baptism of water is to repentance re Hebrews 6 oncely given. That it is the baptism of Christian understanding according to the breath of Jesus being before Pentecost, and in reference to the renewal of the soul when God breathed on Adam, that is the first baptism where the taste is experienced. One needs to (not necessary) proceed past that which becomes teachers. Baptism of fire is the result, with the same stipulations from my previous post (albeit on a different thread)John's baptism was a baptism for repentance and is flesh giving birth to flesh. It births a son of Abraham "born according to the flesh"—Galatians 4:29. But Jesus' baptism is the Spirit giving birth to spirit and results in a son of Abraham "born by the power of the Spirit"—Galatians 4:29. The son born by the power of the Spirit inherits the kingdom, not the son born as a result of the flesh—Galatians 4:30. That's why you must be born of water AND the Spirit to see the kingdom of God. Jesus is telling Nicodemus that John's baptism, though necessary, is not enough to see and enter into the kingdom of God.
“I baptize you with water for repentance... He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Matthew 3:11
1. Same as I've saidSorry to butt in to this but the very fact that it’s on the same subject as the last post makes it rather disconcerting. The baptism of water is to repentance re Hebrews 6 oncely given. That it is the baptism of Christian understanding according to the breath of Jesus being before Pentecost, and in reference to the renewal of the soul when God breathed on Adam, that is the first baptism where the taste is experienced. One needs to (not necessary) proceed past that which becomes teachers. Baptism of fire is the result, with the same stipulations from my previous post (albeit on a different thread)
...
To say Galatians 4 taught that "water baptism" birthed "slaves" is to say that water baptism represents the heresy, the "accursed" "false Gospel" Galatians 1:6-9, of putting men under the works of the Law Galatians 4:21 Galatians 5:11 ("preaching")--that is impossible of course, since water baptism is an integral facet of Christianity, which is to be accepted, and never rejected, whereas the false Gospel that puts men under Law is to be rejected--because that was what Paul was militating against throughout that epistle.
I have no idea what he’s talking about.LOL That's exactly what I'd had in mind.
To say Galatians 4 taught that "water baptism" birthed "slaves" is to say that water baptism represents the heresy, the "accursed" "false Gospel" Galatians 1:6-9, of putting men under the works of the Law Galatians 4:21 Galatians 5:11 ("preaching")--that is impossible of course, since water baptism is an integral facet of Christianity, which is to be accepted, and never rejected, whereas the false Gospel that puts men under Law is to be rejected--because that was what Paul was militating against throughout that epistle.
He was thinking that John 3's "flesh gives birth to flesh" corresponded with "natural sons of Abraham--Jews" whom Galatians 4 taught were allegorically "Ishmael", "born of Jerusalem on earth [which] is enslaved together with her children", "slaves" "under Law" ; and that John 3's "spirit gives birth to spirit" corresponded with "spiritual sons of Abraham--Christians (ethnically Gentile or Jewish)" whom Galatians 4 taught were allegorically "Isaac", "born of the Jerusalem above [which] is free", "free" who are "under Grace".I have no idea what he’s talking about.
Abraham had at least 4-5 sons, some that may have been from the east (and perhaps the wise men? fft), butHe was thinking that John 3's "flesh gives birth to flesh" corresponded with "natural sons of Abraham--Jews" whom Galatians 4 taught were allegorically "Ishmael", "born of Jerusalem on earth [which] is enslaved together with her children", "slaves" "under Law" ; and that John 3's "spirit gives birth to spirit" corresponded with "spiritual sons of Abraham--Christians (ethnically Gentile or Jewish)" whom Galatians 4 taught were allegorically "Isaac", "born of the Jerusalem above [which] is free", "free" who are "under Grace".
1. Hagar birthed Ishmael--Hagar signifies earthly Jerusalem in slavery together with her children the Jews signified by Ishmael.Abraham had at least 4-5 sons, some that may have been from the east (and perhaps the wise men? fft), but
Ishmael signifies Hagar who was from Egypt, to be technical. She was the only woman to name God “God sees us”
but the reference in Galatians 4 is to those who are born under law. Which in a sense we all are, biblically also.
The spiritual children, according to the promise, are Abraham’s children, but only from Sarah. Sara means grace and is the sign of the new Jerusalem, our mother. So Sarah (grace) plus faith (which is what Abraham is figurative of), is the promise given.
I don’t think it speculation to apply that to law-keepers whether they be birthed into a Jewish family or not.1. Hagar birthed Ishmael--Hagar signifies earthly Jerusalem in slavery together with her children the Jews signified by Ishmael.
The difference in Nt rather than OT typology is applied to carnal vs not so carnal practises iirc2. There doesn't exist a verse of Scripture where anyone but "Jews" (those practicing the works of the Law--ethnically Jewish or converts to the "Judaism" of obedience to the Law) were described as "under Law”.
I believe it’s in the scripture in question.3a. I looked the name "Sarah" up and it means "noblewoman" or "lady" or "happy", not "grace". Where are you getting the idea that her name means "grace”?
Thanks, I quite thought so myself.3b. If Sarah's literal name was "grace", and we arbitrarily claimed Abraham "represented" "faith", that would be "apples-to-oranges"--quite sloppy "spiritualizing”.
Thanks.
Not sure what purpose this comment serves, as that had already been granted...I don’t think it speculation to apply that to law-keepers whether they be birthed into a Jewish family or not.
There doesn't exist a verse of Scripture where anyone but "Jews" (those practicing the works of the Law--ethnically Jewish or converts to the "Judaism" of obedience to the Law) were described as "under Law".
Please clarify.The difference in Nt rather than OT typology is applied to carnal vs not so carnal practises iirc
EDIT : I reread your claim--apparently you meant "Sarah allegorically signifies grace" not "Sarah's name means grace".I believe it’s in the scripture in question.
No, relating to God through works alone is what births slaves. Repentance without the spiritual birth is nothing more than relating to God through the effort of your own works. That's what John' baptism was. A baptism of fleshly effort to repent. An effort that births a natural man, not a spiritual man.To say Galatians 4 taught that "water baptism" birthed "slaves"...
When you use Galatians 4, you take the entire argument there and use it--you denounce baptism as "under Law" "works of Law" and "false Gospel".No, relating to God through works alone is what births slaves. Repentance without the spiritual birth is nothing more than relating to God through the effort of your own works. That's what John' baptism was. A baptism of fleshly effort to repent. An effort that births a natural man, not a spiritual man.
"Sarah allegorically signifies grace” yes.Not sure what purpose this comment serves, as that had already been granted...
Please clarify.
EDIT : I reread your claim--apparently you meant "Sarah allegorically signifies grace" not "Sarah's name means grace".
John's baptism only represents the heresy of the works gospel in that it represented a person's fleshly effort to turn to God. Which we all know is futile without the necessary spiritual birth. The person born of water, only, can not, and will not inherit the kingdom. He must also be born by the Spirit, immersed and baptized by Jesus in the Spirit....is to say that water baptism represents the heresy, the "accursed" "false Gospel" Galatians 1:6-9, of putting men under the works of the Law Galatians 4:21 Galatians 5:11 ("preaching")
A baptism for repentance all by itself, minus the spiritual birth is what I denounce as nothing more than the futile effort of the flesh to lay hold of the kingdom of God. And I think that is what Jesus is showing Nicodemus. It is not enough to have John's baptism of water for repentance. You must also have His (Jesus') baptism of the Spirit to see the kingdom of God.When you use Galatians 4, you take the entire argument there and use it--you denounce baptism as "under Law" "works of Law" and "false Gospel".
No, the carnal mind can only be destroyed Romans 6:6."Sarah allegorically signifies grace” yes.
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The difference in Nt rather than OT typology is applied to carnal vs not so carnal practises iirc
Please clarify.
NT may be shadowing the twain becoming one thru the Jew and Gentile (believers and unbelievers OT) but the allegory is about carnal minds and the mind of Christ by which reasonable service may be applied.
...it doesn't--there is no correlation between water baptism and Galatians 4 which condemns putting people "under Law" Galatians 4:21 which obviously cannot include "water baptism" since that is an integral part of Christianity.John's baptism only represents the heresy of the works gospel in that...
Impossible, as it is required by the New Covenant, which represents spiritual not fleshly efforts....it represented a person's fleshly effort to turn to God.
"Born of water" means "born of the Word of God".The person born of water only can not, and will not inherit the kingdom. He must also be born again by the Spirit, immersed and baptized in the Spirit.
Do you read "born of water" as "water baptism" then--agreeing with Catholics?A baptism for repentance all by itself, minus the spiritual birth is what I denounce as nothing more than the effort of the flesh to lay hold of the kingdom of God.
Your missing the fine tuning of what vessels are able to be clean.No, the carnal mind can only be destroyed Romans 6:6.
The Law says a clay vessel once defiled cannot be cleansed it must be destroyed.
It is better to be simple not complicated.
The context of Romans 6:6 is one (the body of sin is destroyed just as the clay vessel must be destroyed after it is defiled--it cannot be cleansed or improved or reformed); the context of Jeremiah (God is trying to avert destroying them, so he's trying to give them another chance--and he says the vessel is marred in the process of molding not defiled) is another.Your missing the fine tuning of what vessels are able to be clean.
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour
Significance?That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
Significance?If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
2 Timothy 2