John 9:35-41

[Episkopos]

eternal is not immortal, except to 21st century believers i guess.

Mortal means you can die. Mortal comes from mort...death.

Immortal means you can't die.

Eternal means perpetual...outside of time. Timeless.

We can experience the eternal in this life....and still be mortal. Is there not a sin that leads to death? (mortal)

 

[GodsGrace]

"Anyway, is it worth all this thinking?" I suppose not, as nothing we can do about it anyhow...unless you want red dye for something?? Lol...and yeah, as far as "their worm", I dunno...bad ungodly people will never run out? So, the worm won't starve? HA! Yeah, is what it is GG.

Good thinking!

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed with all...except my belief on "eternal" We recently had a sermon on how HUGE God is. It started out with His being eternal meaning, He had no beginning and has no end. From what I got from the sermon is that we, who are saved will live as an everlasting being cause WE did have a beginning...I know, semantics, lol.

Words.
Whatever...

Don't eternal and everlasting mean the same??

eternal
ɪˈtəːn(ə)l,iːˈtəːn(ə)l/
adjective

1. 1.
   lasting or existing forever; without end.
   "the secret of eternal youth"
   sinonimi: everlasting, never-ending, endless, without end, perpetual, undying, immortal, deathless, indestructible, imperishable, immutable, abiding, permanent, enduring, infinite, boundless, timeless; Altro2.
2. used to emphasize expressions of admiration, gratitude, etc.
   "to his eternal credit, he maintained his dignity throughout"

*****************************************************

everlasting
ɛvəˈlɑːstɪŋ/
adjective

1. 1.
   lasting forever or a very long time.
   "the damned would suffer everlasting torment"
   sinonimi: eternal, never-ending, endless, without end, perpetual, undying, immortal, deathless, indestructible, immutable, abiding, enduring, infinite, boundless, timeless; Altro
   
   

noun

1. 
   LITERARY
   eternity.
2. 
   a flower of the daisy family with a papery texture, retaining its shape and colour after being dried, especially a helichrysum.

I'm sure it was a great sermon.
We won't ever really understand God, but anything that helps is good.

 

[Nancy]

Words.
Whatever...

Don't eternal and everlasting mean the same??

eternal
ɪˈtəːn(ə)l,iːˈtəːn(ə)l/
adjective

1. 1.
   lasting or existing forever; without end.
   "the secret of eternal youth"
   sinonimi: everlasting, never-ending, endless, without end, perpetual, undying, immortal, deathless, indestructible, imperishable, immutable, abiding, permanent, enduring, infinite, boundless, timeless; Altro2.
2. used to emphasize expressions of admiration, gratitude, etc.
   "to his eternal credit, he maintained his dignity throughout"

*****************************************************

everlasting
ɛvəˈlɑːstɪŋ/
adjective

1. 1.
   lasting forever or a very long time.
   "the damned would suffer everlasting torment"
   sinonimi: eternal, never-ending, endless, without end, perpetual, undying, immortal, deathless, indestructible, immutable, abiding, enduring, infinite, boundless, timeless; Altro
   

noun

1. 
   LITERARY
   eternity.
2. 
   a flower of the daisy family with a papery texture, retaining its shape and colour after being dried, especially a helichrysum.

I'm sure it was a great sermon.
We won't ever really understand God, but anything that helps is good.

"Eternal

It is used as an adjective and a noun.

When used as adjective, it means, “without beginning or end, always existing, lasting forever.” For example, “Hindus believe in an eternal soul. The soul is neither created nor destroyed.”
Ceaseless, endless, perpetual. For example, ”She is eternally grateful to the firefighter for saving her life.”
Immutable, enduring. For example, “His eternal principles made him a great man.”

When used as noun it means:

Something which is eternal. For example, “life and death.”
The Eternal, meaning “God.”

Everlasting

It is used as an adjective and noun.

When used as an adjective, it means, “lasting forever”. For example, “everlasting love.”
Lasting for a very long time, for an indefinitely long time. For example, “His everlasting morals were commendable.”
Lasting so long that it seems tedious. For example, “Her everlasting chatter gave her friend a headache.”

When used as noun, it means:

The Everlasting, meaning, “God.”
Endless duration, meaning, “eternity.”
A flower, the flower called “Everlasting.”



Read more: Difference Between Eternal and Everlasting | Difference Between Difference Between Eternal and Everlasting | Difference Between

 

[Nancy]

eternal is not immortal, except to 21st century believers i guess.

Well, to me and Merriam Webster, lol, "immortal" simply means exempt from death. Humans are not exempt from physical death. "Eternity" is a whole different state of existence...immeasurable...there is no "time" so to speak. How can we know the ways of God?? If we did...He wouldn't be God now would He? ♥

 

[Enoch111]

Well, to me and Merriam Webster, lol, "immortal" simply means exempt from death.

As long as we are clear that mortality and immortality are applicable only to the human body (thus we have "mortality rates").

Souls and spirits are imperishable, but the cults teach that they are not, in order to fit that into their false doctrines.

 

[Episkopos]

As long as we are clear that mortality and immortality are applicable only to the human body (thus we have "mortality rates").

Souls and spirits are imperishable, but the cults teach that they are not, in order to fit that into their false doctrines.

In your opinion that is.

Mat. 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[quietthinker]

Yes, you're right. It sounds like a contradiction. But certainly everyone here knows we have a soul ! Maybe it should be: If INDEED, we have a soul?
We have a soul.
It is eternal.


You always say this and it's an understanding you personally have and these beliefs are difficult to share.

We ARE our soul. Man became a living soul because before he was just dead dirt.
I think it's very important to understand how man is made:
He has a body.
He has a soul.
He has a spirit.

Do you agree with this?
All 3 things make up the man...not just the soul. Saying "man is a living soul" just means that once man is born and has a soul, that soul is alive and living...but man is much MORE than a soul....a living soul. A soul is always living and can never die.


Here I beg to disagree.
Satan did lie, but he was not the one to declare that we were eternal.

Adam and Eve had been told by God that they would live forever. He clearly said that if they ate of the tree they would surely die...both physically and spiritually.
That meant that they were made to live forever...Adam and Eve had preternatural gifts...one of them was eternal life; which they lost.

We can disagree on different POV, but certainly this cannot be debated.


I agree.
Understanding HOW man is made is fundamental.
Understanding man's sin nature is fundamental.
And understanding man's break with God, himself, others, and nature, is fundamental.

What do I think? I think you are muddled. You need to go back to the scriptures and check your information.

 

[Jun2u]

1. Some here may not know that you're a calvinist and may not understand what is going on, so I mention this for their sakes....

Firstly, I don’t want to be the cause of you “bearing false witness” against another. Time and again I’ve told you I am not a Calvinist and I don’t know any of his works yet you insist I’m a Calvinist. In this site you will NEVER see me quote commentaries because no matter how holy the commentary may seem the author’s best work at most is still tainted by sin and can be influenced by his or his church’s presuppositions. If Calvin and I or any other speak the same language about salvation I assure you it is the language of the Bible.

Secondly, most Bible scholars and Bible students, do NOT know how to read or understand Scripture and NOT understanding that God gave us rules by which we may know how to understand difficult passages, thus they become blind leaders leading the blind.

Christendom has a big problem today that is, what structures and determines the true Gospel?

Since God CHOSE YOU, you must admit that you are VERY lucky indeed. Just think of all the poor souls He DIDN'T choose to be saved ! They're going straight to hell no matter what they desire or wish or would like. Too bad for them...

As I’ve just alluded to above, scholars and students do not know how to read nor understand Scripture, so they turn around and point their fists at God with defiance and say, “God, You did NOT save me so now I’m going to hell,” and God will say,”No, you are going to hell BECAUSE you are a sinner and accountable for your sins, and NOT because I did not choose you.” The audacity of mankind to turn around and put the blame on God!!!

2. I just reread your post no. 31. It says nothing about the conflict between
1 John 3:9 and 1 John 2:1...

There are no conflicts or contradictions between 1 John 2:1 and 1 John 3:9. In fact, there are no contradictions of any kind in the whole Bible! God did not write the Bible accidentally or incidentally! By putting scripture verses together we get a bigger picture whereby we can harmonize and discern truth by comparing scripture with scriptures.

1 John 3:9 declares that whosoever is born of God does not commit sin nor can he sin because he is born (anothen) of God. The Greek word “anothen” means “born from above.” The same Greek word is used in John 3:3, 5 where Jesus was speaking with Nicodemus that unless he is born from above (anothen), or by the washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5), he cannot see/enter the kingdom of God.

But there is a conflict you say between 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 2:1. On the one hand, 1 John 3:9 indicates when a person is born from above he does not sin nor commit sins (btw, this is a fundamental principle laid out by God).

Yet, on the other hand, 1 John 2:1 stipulates that a believer should not sin and if he did he can go to the throne of Grace and ask for forgiveness (paraphrased). Isn’t there a conflict here?

The problem is when does the believer first become saved and receive his eternal life? Scripture says immediate or there about, as also illustrated by the thief at the cross. The question now is what part of his being was saved after death?

I believe the answer lies as Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote Romans 7:15-25.

In these verses, he is warring with his mind (spirit) against his flesh (body). In his mind/spirit essence he has become saved therefore serve the law of God, but in his flesh/body which is yet unsaved he still lusts after the law of sin.

And, he cries, “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

I hope this helped.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Jun2u]

In your opinion that is.

Mat. 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

I believe @Enoch111 was speaking about a child of God, while you were speaking about the
unsaved.

 

[Enoch111]

In your opinion that is.

Mat. 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy* both soul and body in hell.

Do you know what that word "destroy" means in the New Testament? And what the word "perish" means (both terms being used to translate apollumi)? People automatically assume that it means extinction or evaporation. But that is not what it means.

What the verse is saying is that souls and spirits are imperishable, and after the resurrection unto damnation, their bodes will also become imperishable, hence bodies, souls, and spirits will be subject to eternal conscious torment -- "to be delivered up to eternal misery" (Thayer's), "not extinction, but ruin, loss" (Vine's).

*Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 622: ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi)

a. of persons; (a). properly: Matthew 8:25; Luke 13:3, 5, 33; John 11:50; 2 Peter 3:6; Jude 1:11, etc.;ἀπόλλυμαι λιμῷ, Luke 15:17; ἐνμαχαρια, Matthew 26:52;καταβαλλόμενοι, ἀλλ' οὐκἀπολλύμενοι, 2 Corinthians 4:9. (b). tropically, to incur the loss of true or eternal life; to be delivered up to eternal misery: John 3:15 (R Lbr.), ; (it must be borne in mind, that according to John's conception eternal life begins on earth, just as soon as one becomes united to Christ by faith); Romans 2:12;1 Corinthians 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:18;2 Peter 3:9. Hence, οἱ σῳζόμενοι they to whom it belongs to partake of salvation, and οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι those to whom it belongs to perish or to be consigned to eternal misery, are contrasted by Paul...

Destroy, Destroyer, Destruction, Destructive

A — 1: ἀπόλλυμι
(Strong's #622 — Verb — apollumi — ap-ol'-loo-mee )
a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37 ; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luke 15:4,6 , etc.; the lost son, Luke 15:24 ; of the perishing of food, John 6:27 ; of gold, 1 Peter 1:7 . So of persons, Matthew 2:13 , "destroy;" Matthew 8:25 , "perish;" Matthew 22:7 ;27:20 ; of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Matthew 10:28 ; Luke 13:3,5 ; John 3:16 (ver. 15 in some mss.); 10:28; 17:12; Romans 2:12 ; 1 Corinthians 15:18 ; 2 Corinthians 2:15 , "are perishing;" 2 Corinthians 4:3 ; 2 Thessalonians 2:10 ; James 4:12 ; 2 Peter 3:9 . Cp. B, II, No. 1. See DIE , LOSE , MARRED ,PERISH.

 

[GodsGrace]

What do I think? I think you are muddled. You need to go back to the scriptures and check your information.

Sure. I'll try to do that.
ITMT, you can't answer my questions, I guess.
Or you would have.

 

[GodsGrace]

Firstly, I don’t want to be the cause of you “bearing false witness” against another. Time and again I’ve told you I am not a Calvinist and I don’t know any of his works yet you insist I’m a Calvinist. In this site you will NEVER see me quote commentaries because no matter how holy the commentary may seem the author’s best work at most is still tainted by sin and can be influenced by his or his church’s presuppositions. If Calvin and I or any other speak the same language about salvation I assure you it is the language of the Bible.

Not to worry. I never would bear false witness against anyone.
If I believe everything Catholics believe (or a large majority) would that make me a catholic? Of course it would...just not in name. However, I will not bring this up again.

As to commentaries, I don't know why you brought that up. Actually, I don't do this either, maybe in very rare cases. Sometimes I DO look for a link when I don't have a lot of time to post. That link might even be a commentary...but I'm sure you know that even commentators don't agree, so one would have to at least agree with what he posts....it's not a good way to learn though...how would one know which commentator is correct?

BTW, Calvin does NOT speak the language of the bible, but that's a different thread. And HE does have some great commentaries BTW. I have read some of his writings.

Secondly, most Bible scholars and Bible students, do NOT know how to read or understand Scripture and NOT understanding that God gave us rules by which we may know how to understand difficult passages, thus they become blind leaders leading the blind.

Christendom has a big problem today that is, what structures and determines the true Gospel?

Interesting. So who do YOU learn from?
The Holy Spirit? Why would he tell YOU something different from what He tells ME??

How did YOU learn the rules?

As I’ve just alluded to above, scholars and students do not know how to read nor understand Scripture, so they turn around and point their fists at God with defiance and say, “God, You did NOT save me so now I’m going to hell,” and God will say,”No, you are going to hell BECAUSE you are a sinner and accountable for your sins, and NOT because I did not choose you.” The audacity of mankind to turn around and put the blame on God!!!

Well, actually, in Calvinism it is God's fault. You should learn about it since you SEEM to agree with much of it.

There are no conflicts or contradictions between 1 John 2:1 and 1 John 3:9. In fact, there are no contradictions of any kind in the whole Bible! God did not write the Bible accidentally or incidentally! By putting scripture verses together we get a bigger picture whereby we can harmonize and discern truth by comparing scripture with scriptures.

1 John 3:9 declares that whosoever is born of God does not commit sin nor can he sin because he is born (anothen) of God. The Greek word “anothen” means “born from above.” The same Greek word is used in John 3:3, 5 where Jesus was speaking with Nicodemus that unless he is born from above (anothen), or by the washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5), he cannot see/enter the kingdom of God.

But there is a conflict you say between 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 2:1. On the one hand, 1 John 3:9 indicates when a person is born from above he does not sin nor commit sins (btw, this is a fundamental principle laid out by God).

Yet, on the other hand, 1 John 2:1 stipulates that a believer should not sin and if he did he can go to the throne of Grace and ask for forgiveness (paraphrased). Isn’t there a conflict here?

The problem is when does the believer first become saved and receive his eternal life? Scripture says immediate or there about, as also illustrated by the thief at the cross. The question now is what part of his being was saved after death?

I believe the answer lies as Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote Romans 7:15-25.

In these verses, he is warring with his mind (spirit) against his flesh (body). In his mind/spirit essence he has become saved therefore serve the law of God, but in his flesh/body which is yet unsaved he still lusts after the law of sin.

And, he cries, “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

I hope this helped.

To God Be The Glory

There are no contradictions in the bible?
Did Judas hang himself or did he throw himself off a bridge?

As to 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 2:1 you haven't helped at all.
What does seeing the Kingdom have to do with sinning? Those in the Kingdom don't ever sin? We all sin.

I don't understand at all why you're speaking about after death.
The part that is saved after death? I don't see the connection between this and sinning.

People do not receive their eternal life when they become saved. This is their HOPE. Eternal life is received after death. John 3:16 tells us that whoever believes in Jesus will have eternal life. We must believe in Jesus at our death in order to receive this eternal life...we must run the race to the end. 1 John 5:20 says that Jesus is the eternal life. If we have Jesus we will have eternal life, if we do not have Jesus we will not have eternal life.

1 Corinthians 9:24
24Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.


Philippians 3:12-14
12Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

The thief on the cross was to die that same day, so I think he does not apply here.

Romans 7:25
Romans 8:2-3
Jesus Christ set us free from the LAW of sin and death. In fact, He came to kill death. For what the law could not do,,,because it was weak through the flesh, God did sending His Son... Romans 8:3

We are to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh...
We are to please God and not the evil one...this is what it means.

As to 1 John....
verse 2:1 tells us that we will sin. Notice that John is speaking to the BRETHREN.
verse 3:9 tells us that we will not CONTINUE IN SIN. IOW, we will not live a life of sin because we are born from above and do not wish to walk anymore according to the flesh...this does not mean we will never sin again, as John provides for in verse 2:1

"Practice sin" or "continue in sin" is different from sinning. 1 John 3:9

 

[bbyrd009]

"Eternity" is a whole different state of existence...immeasurable...there is no "time" so to speak

fwiw "eternity" likely started out as a measure of time, "an eternity" used to mean "an age" or "an eon" i guess

 

[Episkopos]

I believe @Enoch111 was speaking about a child of God, while you were speaking about the
unsaved.

That's right. Saved can mean a variety of things. It can mean salvation unto honour....or shame. Or just barely saved...

 

[justbyfaith]

There are no contradictions in the bible?
Did Judas hang himself or did he throw himself off a bridge?

Either Judas hanged himself on a tree that was located in the field of blood and when he hanged himself he fell headlong onto the rope; the rope caught him and all his bowels gushed out as he hung from the tree: or, he died twice (because Jesus tried to give him another chance by raising him from the dead; but he was so deceived by his stay in hell that he committed suicide a second time: but there is nothing in scripture that specifically tells us this so I reject this view). I think it was the former.

That's right. Saved can mean a variety of things. It can mean salvation unto honour....or shame.

Wrong...Romans 10:11.

 

[Jun2u]

As to 1 John....
verse 2:1 tells us that we will sin. Notice that John is speaking to the BRETHREN.
verse 3:9 tells us that we will not CONTINUE IN SIN. IOW, we will not live a life of sin because we are born from above and do not wish to walk anymore according to the flesh...this does not mean we will never sin again, as John provides for in verse 2:1

To understand that there are no contradictions between 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 2:1, we have to begin that man is a two integral parts, that is he has a body and a soul.

John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit explicitly stated that a person who is born from above DOES NOT sin nor can he COMMIT sin, because he is born of God. “We will not CONTINUE IN SIN” is a wrong interpretation which you’ve quoted above.

Therefore, 1 John 3:9 only applies to the soul of the believer where he has become saved and have been given eternal life instantly, just as we see the thief on the cross who became saved and after one or two hours went to Paradise with Jesus. Which is a fundamental rule and also taught in Scripture “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” (2 Corinthians 5:8). IOW, the part of our being that is saved instantly and can go to be with the Lord is in our spirit existence only.

The reason you changed the meaning and content of 1 John 3:9 is because you couldn’t reconcile it with 1 John 2:1.

Your confusion lies to the fact that when a person becomes saved he is saved only in his soul existence, and if he is still living before Christ comes back, he will continue to sin because his body has not been saved as yet until the last day, When our resurrected body have been raised and joined again with our spirit then will our salvation be complete.

And, this is what Paul was trying to convey in Romans 7:15-25 that while in his flesh which is still unsaved, he still lusted after sin because he still served the law of sin, whereas, in his spirit that is saved, he served the law of God.

So he cries, “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There are no contradictions in the bible?
Did Judas hang himself or did he throw himself off a bridge?

Another apparent contradiction you raised!

Scripture is very clear, Judas hanged himself we read in Matthew 27:5, yet in Acts 1:18 (which I believe you have in mind) it says different. The only solution I can see is to bring the two Scripture references together to get a much bigger picture. While Judas was hanging on the tree, the rope broke and he fell headlong, and hit his stomach on a rock, and all his bowels gushed out.

There are no contradictions in the Bible!!!

I will answer the rest of your post on another post.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Episkopos]

There are no contradictions in the Bible!!!

This is really funny coming from a person who is unable to find any references to the righteous in the bible...because of white knuckling one verse.

 

[quietthinker]

quietthinker said: ↑
Yes, this is right until they are consumed and the darkness will be complete for them. Where will the darkness be then? Gone!
When sin and all those who love and practice a lie are destroyed, the whole universe, both animate and inanimate, once more will pulse with harmony and reflect the glory of God.

Attempting to fit living eternally with weeping and gnashing of teeth is not only contrary to the justice, it is an insult to God.

Imagine.... Taking the position of eternal weeping and gnashing of teeth etc....Jesus taking the place of the sinner in bearing his punishment would mean that his torture on the cross should be ongoing for eternity. No, no, no, this is contrary to scripture and and reveals the nature of the Devil.

I know catholic priests that believe the above.
What I don't understand in your position is this...
1 The bible speaks of eternity. If we have a soul, it is surely eternal.
We are a soul, we do not have a soul. Yes we are living souls, they are mortal. We have inherited this mortality from Adam
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

2 How would a soul become consumed if it's not something that can be felt?
Souls can feel, at least this one can

3 And what scripture verses do you use?
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ezekiel 18:20 'The soul that sinneth, it shall die....'

Did the scripture verses make a difference?

4 The ones I know who believe as you do just trust that God is merciful and good and would never subject a person to an eternal darkness without Him and also because they feel He's responsible for making us in the first place if He knew what would happen..I mean knowing what would happen.

The ones you know that hold this view obviously are in error.

quietthinker said:
What do I think? I think you are muddled. You need to go back to the scriptures and check your information.

Godsgrace said:
Sure. I'll try to do that. Thank you
ITMT, you can't answer my questions, I guess.
Or you would have.

Oh dear! peace!

Please expand your post. My replies are embedded

 

[Episkopos]

My relies are embedded

I hope your condition improves so that you can get those relies out of bed!