John 9:35-41

[GodsGrace]

Yes, this is right until they are consumed and the darkness will be complete for them. Where will the darkness be then? Gone!
When sin and all those who love and practice a lie are destroyed, the whole universe, both animate and inanimate, once more will pulse with harmony and reflect the glory of God.

Attempting to fit living eternally with weeping and gnashing of teeth is not only contrary to the justice, it is an insult to God.

Imagine.... Taking the position of eternal weeping and gnashing of teeth etc....Jesus taking the place of the sinner in bearing his punishment would mean that his torture on the cross should be ongoing for eternity. No, no, no, this is contrary to scripture and and reveals the nature of the Devil.

I know catholic priests that believe the above.
What I don't understand in your position is this...
The bible speaks of eternity. If we have a soul, it is surely eternal.
How would a soul become consumed if it's not something that can be felt?
And what scripture verses do you use?
The ones I know who believe as you do just trust that God is merciful and good and would never subject a person to an eternal darkness without Him and also because they feel He's responsible for making us in the first place if He knew what would happen..I mean knowing what would happen.

 

[GodsGrace]

I thought I’d be nice and answer all three.

1) Not lucky just blessed that God has chosen and elected me to salvation, and redeemed all of my sins before the foundation of the world.

2) There are no contradictions in Scripture, just our understanding. 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 2:1 is teaching a fundamental principle, and must be read in light of Romans 7:15-25 to get the gist, which I’ve already alluded to in post #31.

3) I’ve wagered against your knowledge of Scripture that you will not be able to answer the biblical meaning of the word “love” and you lost, for electing not to answer.

To God Be The Glory

You have to be nice to answer someone's questions?
It seems like the correct thing to do...

1. Some here may not know that you're a calvinist and may not understand what is going on, so I mention this for their sakes....
Since God CHOSE YOU, you must admit that you are VERY lucky indeed. Just think of all the poor souls He DIDN'T choose to be saved ! They're going straight to hell no matter what they desire or wish or would like. Too bad for them...
At least you're taught to feel sorry for them by the likes of Sproul and Piper. I actually heard Piper give a sermon on this on YouTube. It was rather nice of him to consider those God chose to go to hell.

2. I just reread your post no. 31. It says nothing about the conflict between
1 John 3:9 and 1 John 2:1...
You say it has to be read in light of some verse...
How?
Why?
Maybe you'd care to exegete?

3. You bet I didn't know the biblical meaning of love.
I asked how much you bet.
You most assuredly would have lost the bet.
But here's the reason why I won't explain it at this time...

First, because you yourself have shown very little of it on your posts in this forum. Maybe you know what it is but do not show it?

Second, because it's so elemental I believe it requires no explanation unless one is just starting out in Christian theology. Since you're so knowledgeable, I doubt I need to explain it to you.

I await your unraveling of the conflict in 1 John.
Saying the bible has no conflict is not sufficient....

 

[Nancy]

I know catholic priests that believe the above.
What I don't understand in your position is this...
The bible speaks of eternity. If we have a soul, it is surely eternal.
How would a soul become consumed if it's not something that can be felt?
And what scripture verses do you use?
The ones I know who believe as you do just trust that God is merciful and good and would never subject a person to an eternal darkness without Him and also because they feel He's responsible for making us in the first place if He knew what would happen..I mean knowing what would happen.

I have always wondered about "the worm that never dies"...

You have to be nice to answer someone's questions?
It seems like the correct thing to do...

1. Some here may not know that you're a calvinist and may not understand what is going on, so I mention this for their sakes....
Since God CHOSE YOU, you must admit that you are VERY lucky indeed. Just think of all the poor souls He DIDN'T choose to be saved ! They're going straight to hell no matter what they desire or wish or would like. Too bad for them...
At least you're taught to feel sorry for them by the likes of Sproul and Piper. I actually heard Piper give a sermon on this on YouTube. It was rather nice of him to consider those God chose to go to hell.

2. I just reread your post no. 31. It says nothing about the conflict between
1 John 3:9 and 1 John 2:1...
You say it has to be read in light of some verse...
How?
Why?
Maybe you'd care to exegete?

3. You bet I didn't know the biblical meaning of love.
I asked how much you bet.
You most assuredly would have lost the bet.
But here's the reason why I won't explain it at this time...

First, because you yourself have shown very little of it on your posts in this forum. Maybe you know what it is but do not show it?

Second, because it's so elemental I believe it requires no explanation unless one is just starting out in Christian theology. Since you're so knowledgeable, I doubt I need to explain it to you.

I await your unraveling of the conflict in 1 John.
Saying the bible has no conflict is not sufficient....

Piper and Sproul can pretend to "feel bad" for all of those who were not "chosen" by God all they want, they could care less because true staunch Calvinists are generally distant cold and unapproachable in many cases. They claim they are "Irresistibly" drawn, or dragged, really! So, does that mean they are also forced to Love God? Love is a CHOICE. Oh, don't get me started!!! Lol.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have always wondered about "the worm that never dies"...

Piper and Sproul can pretend to "feel bad" for all of those who were not "chosen" by God all they want, they could care less because true staunch Calvinists are generally distant cold and unapproachable in many cases. They claim they are "Irresistibly" drawn, or dragged, really! So, does that mean they are also forced to Love God? Love is a CHOICE. Oh, don't get me started!!! Lol.

Too late!
I think you already started!!

I do agree with you 100%

 

[GodsGrace]

I have always wondered about "the worm that never dies"...

Piper and Sproul can pretend to "feel bad" for all of those who were not "chosen" by God all they want, they could care less because true staunch Calvinists are generally distant cold and unapproachable in many cases. They claim they are "Irresistibly" drawn, or dragged, really! So, does that mean they are also forced to Love God? Love is a CHOICE. Oh, don't get me started!!! Lol.

P.S.
The worm.
Usually worms eat a body and then die eventually.
But after death we face eternity (which I mentioned just before, maybe here?)
so since we face eternal damnation, it would be better to enter heaven with "one eye" or "one hand" instead of going to damnation with all our limbs.

Why? Because in hell the worm never dies... the body is never consumed...everything just lasts forever. (not literal worms).
And the fire is also eternal...it is never quenched.

I like this explanation form QotQuestions...
I think the last paragraph is irrelevant but that's my personal opinion.

What is the worm that will not die in Mark 9:48?

 

[Nancy]

Too late!
I think you already started!!

I do agree with you 100%

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

 

[Nancy]

P.S.
The worm.
Usually worms eat a body and then die eventually.
But after death we face eternity (which I mentioned just before, maybe here?)
so since we face eternal damnation, it would be better to enter heaven with "one eye" or "one hand" instead of going to damnation with all our limbs.

Why? Because in hell the worm never dies... the body is never consumed...everything just lasts forever. (not literal worms).
And the fire is also eternal...it is never quenched.

I like this explanation form QotQuestions...
I think the last paragraph is irrelevant but that's my personal opinion.

What is the worm that will not die in Mark 9:48?

Ha, I was just reading this very thing, same site and everything, lol.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ha, I was just reading this very thing, same site and everything, lol.

Let me know what you come away with...
But I have to say good night now.
(if I can't sleep I might be back...)

 

[quietthinker]

I know catholic priests that believe the above.
What I don't understand in your position is this...
The bible speaks of eternity. If we have a soul, it is surely eternal.
How would a soul become consumed if it's not something that can be felt?
And what scripture verses do you use?
The ones I know who believe as you do just trust that God is merciful and good and would never subject a person to an eternal darkness without Him and also because they feel He's responsible for making us in the first place if He knew what would happen..I mean knowing what would happen.

Firstly GG, with respect but you are moving from one assumption and building another. Your points:
1.. If we have a soul
2.. it is surely eternal

1...The scripture tells us that we are souls. We do not posses them as if they are an addition to who we are. 'And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul' Genesis 2:7
(besides, this has been thrashed out in previous posts in detail)
2... Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinners it shall die.

These two fundamental truths are the hinge for an ongoing understanding of God's purposes. If they are not clear or they are fudged they give birth to an array of inaccurate doctrines and straw men

And by the way, the idea that something about us is eternal was Satan's first lie. If you will check the reference it is here, Genesis 3:4
You shall not surely die he told Eve in direct contradiction of what God had told them in Genesis 2:17

I would have thought this stuff is basic, primary and fundamental. If at the outset of Gods word we misunderstand these fundamentals how can we expect to have any clear understanding of anything more complex.
Jesus said in John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

There needs be no ambiguity re this so that the building we construct is straight and level.... critical.

 

[Enoch111]

And by the way, the idea that something about us is eternal was Satan's first lie.

No that was NOT Satan's lie. Did God not create the Tree of Life at the very beginning? And what was the function of this tree?

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever... (Gen 3:22).

The very fact that God now offers the gift of ETERNAL LIFE to whosoever believes on the Lord Jesus Christ should tell you that our souls and spirits are eternal.

At the same time, for those who fail to obey the Gospel, their unsaved souls and spirits are IMPERISHABLE. Therefore they will suffer ETERNAL TORMENT.

 

[quietthinker]

No that was NOT Satan's lie. Did God not create the Tree of Life at the very beginning? And what was the function of this tree?

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever... (Gen 3:22).

The very fact that God now offers the gift of ETERNAL LIFE to whosoever believes on the Lord Jesus Christ should tell you that our souls and spirits are eternal.

At the same time, for those who fail to obey the Gospel, their unsaved souls and spirits are IMPERISHABLE. Therefore they will suffer ETERNAL TORMENT.

Your logic Enoch makes no scriptural sense. You are attempting to build on an error.

 

[Nancy]

Let me know what you come away with...
But I have to say good night now.
(if I can't sleep I might be back...)

Surprisingly, it seems there is not more available on this. It's all so gruesome! So, bottom line, the worm does not/never dies and the fire never goes out. Lol. Here is one if you are so interested.
http://www.bibleabookoftruth.com/WhatTheBiblicalWormWasReferringTo.pdf

 

[GodsGrace]

Firstly GG, with respect but you are moving from one assumption and building another. Your points:
1.. If we have a soul
2.. it is surely eternal

Yes, you're right. It sounds like a contradiction. But certainly everyone here knows we have a soul ! Maybe it should be: If INDEED, we have a soul?
We have a soul.
It is eternal.

1...The scripture tells us that we are souls. We do not posses them as if they are an addition to who we are. 'And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul' Genesis 2:7
(besides, this has been thrashed out in previous posts in detail)
2... Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinners it shall die.

These two fundamental truths are the hinge for an ongoing understanding of God's purposes. If they are not clear or they are fudged they give birth to an array of inaccurate doctrines and straw men

You always say this and it's an understanding you personally have and these beliefs are difficult to share.

We ARE our soul. Man became a living soul because before he was just dead dirt.
I think it's very important to understand how man is made:
He has a body.
He has a soul.
He has a spirit.

Do you agree with this?
All 3 things make up the man...not just the soul. Saying "man is a living soul" just means that once man is born and has a soul, that soul is alive and living...but man is much MORE than a soul....a living soul. A soul is always living and can never die.

And by the way, the idea that something about us is eternal was Satan's first lie. If you will check the reference it is here, Genesis 3:4
You shall not surely die he told Eve in direct contradiction of what God had told them in Genesis 2:17

Here I beg to disagree.
Satan did lie, but he was not the one to declare that we were eternal.

Adam and Eve had been told by God that they would live forever. He clearly said that if they ate of the tree they would surely die...both physically and spiritually.
That meant that they were made to live forever...Adam and Eve had preternatural gifts...one of them was eternal life; which they lost.

We can disagree on different POV, but certainly this cannot be debated.

I would have thought this stuff is basic, primary and fundamental. If at the outset of Gods word we misunderstand these fundamentals how can we expect to have any clear understanding of anything more complex.
Jesus said in John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

There needs be no ambiguity re this so that the building we construct is straight and level.... critical.

I agree.
Understanding HOW man is made is fundamental.
Understanding man's sin nature is fundamental.
And understanding man's break with God, himself, others, and nature, is fundamental.

 

[GodsGrace]

Surprisingly, it seems there is not more available on this. It's all so gruesome! So, bottom line, the worm does not/never dies and the fire never goes out. Lol. Here is one if you are so interested.
http://www.bibleabookoftruth.com/WhatTheBiblicalWormWasReferringTo.pdf

Hi N
Very interesting and informative!
I loved the analogy re the scarlet worm.

I think that one could come up with these ideas and they're very valid, but I do think it's just very simple.

The worm does not die....maybe Jesus did mean the scarlet worm...but it still means that there is torment in hell -- a very ugly picture He paints, I feel as you do.

But Jesus is referring the "their" worm not dying, so it can't mean Jesus -- He DID die. To me it's just referring to eternity.

Anyway, is it worth all this thinking???
Maybe not!

 

[Episkopos]

Our souls are not eternal....although they live beyond being separated from our earthly bodies.

God can kill the soul in the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[GodsGrace]

Our souls are not eternal....although they live beyond being separated from our earthly bodies.

God can kill the soul in the lake of fire. This is the second death.

You don't believe in eternal torment?
Where in the N.T. does it state this??
I can't find anywhere....

 

[Episkopos]

You don't believe in eternal torment?
Where in the N.T. does it state this??
I can't find anywhere....

There is only one verse that suggests an eternal torment for mortals. And that has to do with worshiping the beast.

 

[Nancy]

Hi N
Very interesting and informative!
I loved the analogy re the scarlet worm.

I think that one could come up with these ideas and they're very valid, but I do think it's just very simple.

The worm does not die....maybe Jesus did mean the scarlet worm...but it still means that there is torment in hell -- a very ugly picture He paints, I feel as you do.

But Jesus is referring the "their" worm not dying, so it can't mean Jesus -- He DID die. To me it's just referring to eternity.

Anyway, is it worth all this thinking???
Maybe not!

"Anyway, is it worth all this thinking?" I suppose not, as nothing we can do about it anyhow...unless you want red dye for something?? Lol...and yeah, as far as "their worm", I dunno...bad ungodly people will never run out? So, the worm won't starve? HA! Yeah, is what it is GG.

 

[Nancy]

Yes, you're right. It sounds like a contradiction. But certainly everyone here knows we have a soul ! Maybe it should be: If INDEED, we have a soul?
We have a soul.
It is eternal.


You always say this and it's an understanding you personally have and these beliefs are difficult to share.

We ARE our soul. Man became a living soul because before he was just dead dirt.
I think it's very important to understand how man is made:
He has a body.
He has a soul.
He has a spirit.

Do you agree with this?
All 3 things make up the man...not just the soul. Saying "man is a living soul" just means that once man is born and has a soul, that soul is alive and living...but man is much MORE than a soul....a living soul. A soul is always living and can never die.


Here I beg to disagree.
Satan did lie, but he was not the one to declare that we were eternal.

Adam and Eve had been told by God that they would live forever. He clearly said that if they ate of the tree they would surely die...both physically and spiritually.
That meant that they were made to live forever...Adam and Eve had preternatural gifts...one of them was eternal life; which they lost.

We can disagree on different POV, but certainly this cannot be debated.


I agree.
Understanding HOW man is made is fundamental.
Understanding man's sin nature is fundamental.
And understanding man's break with God, himself, others, and nature, is fundamental.

Agreed with all...except my belief on "eternal" We recently had a sermon on how HUGE God is. It started out with His being eternal meaning, He had no beginning and has no end. From what I got from the sermon is that we, who are saved will live as an everlasting being cause WE did have a beginning...I know, semantics, lol.

 

[bbyrd009]

eternal is not immortal, except to 21st century believers i guess.