Judge Not...

[Joseph77]

That's why I'm chasing clarification because at present I think I understand the point you are trying to make - but there seems to be too many questions remaining in my mind from your perspective on how they relate to other scriptures - hence the questions I'm asking.

Remember the prophet who was told not to eat anything in the area he was sent to , and at first he obeyed, and delivered the message, and refused to eat what was offered to him ?

After he left to go on his way, another prophet entreated him , and told him 'come on' eat with me ...
and he did...
(the details are fuzzy , from memory) -
but the prophet who ate when he was not supposed to , was slain by a lion , and the donkey he was on also I think, and the lion did not eat either one....

The other prophet went and got the one prophet's body , and carried it and buried it...

and nothing in Scripture indicated at all that the prophet who got the other prophet to eat with him,
nothing at all is said about him being at all in sin or sinning.

Chapter 14 of some book.. I'm going to see if I can find it, not yet knowing why .... (it might not matter)... God Knows....
---------------------------------------------------1 Kings 13............
Anyway, (just re-read the chapter) ....
so this part will 'rest' until tomorrow , and maybe longer... I'm not sure yet why I thought of it (sort of, but "like thru a glass dimly" for now ) ....

 

[Rita]

Hi Scoot,
I am a bit confused - here is why
You state that you and your wife felt a conviction not to go - after prayer and fasting, so why are you now questioning whether you did the right thing ?
Are you questioning whether or not you truly heard from the Lord in the matter ?
Sometimes we do not understand why the Lord asks us to do certain things, but neither of you know what would have incurred if you had gone. However I can well imagine that the decision has brought a rippling effect since the wedding. So how you face those ripples, well that needs prayer as well.

You are not responsible for the decisions of others, you obviously addressed the issue with your friends.
I had the same thing happen with a friend of mine who ran off with a leader from my church. Both were married, I wrote to her and stated that she was acting in the same way my ex husband. She wrote back and endeavoured to justify the relationship- they ended up getting married. I have no idea if the Lord ever convicted them. I had to leave that with the Lord. It affected our friendship, which saddened me. Although we do still communicate with one another now.
Love is blind and can often get in the way of hearing.
I was pregnant when I got married - wasn’t a Christian. When I came to faith I didn’t feel any deep conviction , it wasn’t until I went through the divorce 27 years later that I saw the whole step by step disobedience and how it led to a dysfunctional married.
You cannot turn back the clock, you can only move forward. Are you dealing with regret and in that regret are having doubts because of the impact maybe ?
Others in the equation don’t seem to see that you were acting from a conviction - do you feel grieved because others are not understand why you had to follow that conviction ?
Rita

 

[ThePuffyBlob]

JUDGE NOT

I raise this topic, not looking to preach - but looking for answers, and would love comment on where I am wrong, or what I'm missing, or what I could have done better in the scenario below.

Matt 7:1-5 says



I have heard this verse used many time to say that we shouldn't judge ever / at all, and mind our own business. Likewise, I see in John 8:1-7 that people were quick and willing to Judge:



But Jesus also mentions in John 7:24



And Paul goes on to judge in 1 Cor 5:3-13



We're also told in 2 Jn 1:9-11



Are not these scriptures talking about judging?

So... we have one of these places where the bible appears contradicts itself (at least first).

Now - anyone who knows me knows that I don't believe this is possible - and when I see contradiction I get excited because it means that I am misunderstanding the scriptures, not that the scriptures are wrong and in conflict with each other. That when I have the correct understanding, these scriptures won't conflict - but rather will complement each other - thus giving confidence that I'm understanding them correctly.

Over the years I have come to the following conclusions:

Firstly - Jesus didn't say to not take the spec out of our brothers eye. He told us to deal with the plank in our own eye first - and THEN to take the speck out of our brothers eye.

When it came to the woman caught in adultery - the mob didn't seem to be interested in her best interest - they appeared eager to condemn and stone that woman. It was all about what others are doing wrong, whilst feeling self-righteous ignoring their own sins. It seems the verses about not judging appear more about attitude. ie: I should not be wanting to judge - but to help.

I should be willing to help a brother that I see has an issue - but first I need to be willing to be corrected myself - and deal with my problems as humbly (if not more) than how I expect my brother to accept my help - and likewise I should approach them in the way that I would like to be approached if the shoe was on the other foot.

Galatians 6:1 seems to back this up...



So the pattern I'm seeing here is that first - it's not our role to judge those outside the church. Period. They are lost. Whether they commit a particular sin or not is irrelevant - even if they stop say homosexuality - that will benefit them nothing - they are sinners and individual sin for those who are unsaved is not the issue - and not worth focusing on.

That doesn't mean that we don't identify what's being done as sin - but to judge them is useless (or even more so - damaging).

However - there is a responsibility of us however to judge those in the church - but in a very specific way. The attitude should be of love - one of wanting to see the best for that person - and see them repentant - not one of wanting to see them condemned. Only as a last resort do we go to an action of 'judgement'...

Mat 18:15-17



So what I take away from this is that we will be judged according to the measure that we judge others. If we have a heart to see the best outcome in others - and act accordingly - we will have the same judgement used against us. If we judge with condemnation and pride - the same measure of judgement will be used against us.

And of course we have Paul above saying that someone who calls themselves a brother - who continues to sin willfully - don't associate with such a person to the point of not even eating with them. And that's where things start to get interesting...

But first - I know I have a weakness - that it is easy for me to be judgemental. My father was always quick to judge, and that's a family trait that I have been fighting with for ages.

So as I read these verses I'm aware that my flesh would try and persuade me to read them through a lens of justifying judgement.

But I'm also aware that I'm aware of this - and because of this - I run the risk of taking the other extreme to avoid that - and not judge in a scenario where it is my duty as a loving brother in Christ to say something....

but what if you are not the one judging but still the people who are listening to you insisted you are judging but you are not the one who are judging but the word of God

if you say to them "you are blind you can't kneel infront of an idol you can't worship them" then they would say "stop judging us" i am not the one judging you but the word of God itself still insisted i am wrong... it was always like that

 

[Scoot]

but what if you are not the one judging but still the people who are listening to you insisted you are judging but you are not the one who are judging but the word of God

if you say to them "you are blind you can't kneel infront of an idol you can't worship them" then they would say "stop judging us" i am not the one judging you but the word of God itself still insisted i am wrong... it was always like that

Thank you so much @Funny bird - what an incredible perspective to look at it that I hadn't considered. I admit - we never went with the intentions that I was out to condemn them in judgement. Our focus was on God first, and being obedient to Him through what was a challenging situation. Our next concern was for them and what lay ahead. We believed that the best actions for ours was simply to be obedient to what we see God saying to do in that situation through His word.

If we were going around trying to find sin in people's lives and point it out - I could see that we may have an issue with a critical spirit. But when you find yourself in the middle of a situation where it at least appears that the word of God is clear on what to do in that situation and you didn't really want to be there - what is one to do?

If we could have avoided it - we would have. We just believed that the only options to avoid this were either to be disobedient to God's instructions (both in word, and in conviction) and attend the reception - or otherwise to mislead (lie) to others about our reasons for not attending. Neither sat right with us - even though we were very keen to avoid doing what we ended up doing.

There was another couple that didn't attend either for the same reasons as us (and were honest about it), and then there were a number of people who didn't attend - who made other excuses instead of being open like us.

Hi Scoot,
I am a bit confused - here is why
You state that you and your wife felt a conviction not to go - after prayer and fasting, so why are you now questioning whether you did the right thing ?
Are you questioning whether or not you truly heard from the Lord in the matter ?

Thank you too @Rita for expressing your thoughts.

The question was originally raised as a conversation about judging. Whether those who quote "Judge Not" to silence others have merit, and to what extent.

The example I used was one instance where I share my thoughts openly for dialog - that there is more to "Judge Not" than "we shut up and never speak out.". I'm not so much questioning it - just using it as an example.

But in saying that - I am not beyond having it questioned, or corrected if wrong. I am also not beyond wondering for sure if our convictions were true. We believe they were - and still do. I have no reason to doubt that they were right - but I am still open to been challenged.

That may sound a little strange and I understand people saying why discuss it if we're sure. The reason is that I have observed many genuine and well meaning Christians (well, as far as I can discern anyway) - that I would consider far more mature in the faith than I - all claim that they have heard from God, or The Holy Spirit, etc that directly oppose each other - with no way to reconcile the differences.

Just to make one more recent example - I have seen a few people all claim that God said that they were called for a particular position with only one place available. Not only did they all believe they heard from God - these people also had supporters that also said that God has given them confirmation as well.

So now here I see a huge problem. Surely God can't be telling every applicant that the position is theirs (and giving each confirmation through other ministers who support them).

However the outcome was none willing to even consider that they were in the wrong. Each was convinced by their conviction that they had heard from God (and because more than one had confirmation via other ministers/elder/etc backing them saying God had confirmed to them as well) - that was it as far as each was concerned. No more discussion. Just arguments, and a huge fall out in the end.

So as I sit back and ponder on this - I conclude it is simply not possible for them to be at odds with each other if they have all genuinely heard correct from God. Therefore - at the very least - some must be wrong. Whether they didn't hear from God and it was their own thoughts, or whether their prompting was from a different spirit altogether - I don't know - but there is obviously a problem with what's going on.

What I took away from this is that if people who are more mature in the faith with more experience than I can have the wrong convictions, or wrong 'leading', or be mistaken that they head from God - wouldn't it be extremely arrogant of me with less maturity - being the least among them - to assume that it couldn't happen to us either?

Even here - it's obvious that Joseph believes that we were in the wrong (as did no small number of people at the church), and I figure that he too feels that the Holy Spirit is showing Him correctly revelation of the scriptures (as would others here who would both agree or disagree). As such - shouldn't I at least need to consider the possibility that we could have been wrong?

I am desperate to avoid getting to a point that I'm stubborn and closed to correction, or only seek confirmation that I'm right. I believe that if I am open and willing to be corrected, and willing to consider opposing council - and pray - that if I am indeed in the wrong the Holy Spirit will convict us. He can (and I believe often does) use other people to show us scripture that we may have missed, or seen a different way - and then the Holy Spirit can give us revelation or confirmation of this so that we can see our error.

Or alternatively - if our conviction is right - I can hear out others - and even if we face strong challenges - the Holy Spirit will show us the holes, and gaps in the arguments - and/or confirm our actions even among the onslaught of challenges.

As such - I don't see danger in hearing out and having dialog with opposing council. However I see extreme danger in only dialoging with people who approve of what I think is right, or just arguing with people who disagree and not being willing to consider their points.

This concern comes as I see so many people today wrapped up in their own certainty - deceived to the hilt. (If the example above with the elders and pastors isn't enough - just take a look at various Christians fully supporting BLM). Through all this I realise.... I'm the same species as them. - I realise I too have the same faults, and the same ability to be deceived as them. In the end - if Eve who was perfect and sinless in a non-fallen world, and who walked (literally) with God in the evenings could still be deceived - how much more could I?

Please don't mistake my openness to hear people out as being weak in my conviction. On the contrary I'm known by my friends to be very strong in my convictions. I just don't want that strength to turn to arrogance and be closed minded.

Sometimes we do not understand why the Lord asks us to do certain things, but neither of you know what would have incurred if you had gone. However I can well imagine that the decision has brought a rippling effect since the wedding. So how you face those ripples, well that needs prayer as well.

Absolutely! In fact - that's probably just as important, if not more important now. Thank you! We can't change the past - we can only correct what we do moving forward.

You cannot turn back the clock, you can only move forward. Are you dealing with regret and in that regret are having doubts because of the impact maybe ?

Not at all. (or at least not yet - if I'm convicted otherwise, then I might) The spirit that I discuss this is not with any regrets, or even doubts at the moment - but simply one to be willing to hear out opposing council to see if what they say, or what I say is true.

Others in the equation don’t seem to see that you were acting from a conviction - do you feel grieved because others are not understand why you had to follow that conviction ?
Rita

I grieve the loss of friendships. I grieve the final outcome of the relationship in the example (it did not end well for them either). I grieve that as Christians today - with more resources than we've ever had - seem to be arguing and quarreling among ourselves like never before on so many issues often unwilling to be polite enough to hear someone we disagree with out. I also can't help but consider if others were stronger as well in warning of destruction of not following God's word that there may have been a different outcome, not only for these 2 people, but also for other youth who were influenced by what went on.

 

[Joseph77]

Even here - it's obvious that Joseph believes that we were in the wrong (as did no small number of people at the church), and I figure that he too feels that the Holy Spirit is showing Him correctly revelation of the scriptures (as would others here who would both agree or disagree). As such - shouldn't I at least need to consider the possibility that we could have been wrong?

Did you answer the last (and very important question) ?
Were they sleeping around with others , and was that noted before we started dialogue ?

 

[Joseph77]

So - what do we do with 1 Cor 5:11.

Read it - (I just now found it.... for example ? )
1 Corinthians 5:11-13
J.B. Phillips New Testament

9-13 In my previous letter I said, “Don’t mix with the immoral.”
I didn’t mean, of course, that you were to have no contact at all with the immoral of this world,
nor with any cheats or thieves or idolaters—for that would mean going out of the world altogether!

But in this letter I tell you not to associate with any professing Christian who is
known to be
an impure man or
a swindler,
an idolater,
a man with a foul tongue,
a drunkard or
a thief.

My instruction is: “Don’t even eat with such a man.” Those outside the church it is not my business to judge. but surely it is your business to judge those who are inside the church—God alone can judge those who are outside. It is your plain duty to ‘put away from yourselves that wicked person’.

 

[Rita]

Hi Scoot,
Thank you for your response x
I am not able to get into a debate about whether you were wrong or right. I simply do not know enough, how we communicate things to others can play a part in how it all pans out. How and why we feel certain things can be a conviction of our own base lines to things, and conviction from the Holy Spirit. I did find it interesting when I read through an earlier post and you said the following ....

I've also heard the argument that the first person you sleep with is your spouse and that defines marriage and the covenant - the act is the covenant that is made. Even if that was the case - in this particular instance - that would make them being with each other adultery (without going into the details of their past history).

I find this raises questions for me, were they Christians when they had previous partners and how did you react and respond then, did you feel the same conviction about what they were doing ?

I was thinking about some of the passages you shared- we know that Jesus was often showing the people that he came to bring about change, and that he did not agree with how the Pharisees did things. Their attitudes were all wrong , but they found it very easy to sit in judgement of others. I was thinking about the women caught in adultery - Jesus never condemned her, but he didn’t deny the sin either. I found myself looking up the following words .......
‘ condemn ‘ means to express complete disapproval
‘ Judge ‘ means to form an opinion or conclusion about
‘ conviction’ means a formal declaration of a jury or a judge in a court of law

I found myself thinking about Jesus being the judge , and about us praying about a situation, like the one you have used as an example. Using Jesus as a filter, so that He becomes the judge , not us. Then if we feel a conviction, we then seek guidance over what The Lord wants us to do, personally. In other words we may form opinions and conclusions about people ( which is internal , remember Jesus came to show that it wasn’t just our actions that can be wrong but also our thoughts )
When we express complete disapproval we are condemning

When we just choose to condemn because of our opinions and conclusions, we are acting on those inner judgements without going to the real judge. So maybe righteous judgement is only achieved with the Lords involvement.

You know you said about different people having different convictions about things , well could that be because we are all used in different ways in the lives of others . Is it more a case of the Lord knitting things together to eventually come together and have an effect in another person life.

I am just waffling now - It late and I am tired !!!
I will shut up now xx
Rita

 

[farouk]

Hi Scoot,
I am a bit confused - here is why
You state that you and your wife felt a conviction not to go - after prayer and fasting, so why are you now questioning whether you did the right thing ?
Are you questioning whether or not you truly heard from the Lord in the matter ?
Sometimes we do not understand why the Lord asks us to do certain things, but neither of you know what would have incurred if you had gone. However I can well imagine that the decision has brought a rippling effect since the wedding. So how you face those ripples, well that needs prayer as well.

You are not responsible for the decisions of others, you obviously addressed the issue with your friends.
I had the same thing happen with a friend of mine who ran off with a leader from my church. Both were married, I wrote to her and stated that she was acting in the same way my ex husband. She wrote back and endeavoured to justify the relationship- they ended up getting married. I have no idea if the Lord ever convicted them. I had to leave that with the Lord. It affected our friendship, which saddened me. Although we do still communicate with one another now.
Love is blind and can often get in the way of hearing.
I was pregnant when I got married - wasn’t a Christian. When I came to faith I didn’t feel any deep conviction , it wasn’t until I went through the divorce 27 years later that I saw the whole step by step disobedience and how it led to a dysfunctional married.
You cannot turn back the clock, you can only move forward. Are you dealing with regret and in that regret are having doubts because of the impact maybe ?
Others in the equation don’t seem to see that you were acting from a conviction - do you feel grieved because others are not understand why you had to follow that conviction ?
Rita

@Rita Sometimes repentance is a progressive thing that deepens... I do believe there is a definite point of conversion.

 

[Hidden In Him]

And to answer your question - as I understand it from scripture - Marriage is a covenant between a man and a woman before God and man. Biblical examples of this normally showed the covenant done among witnesses.

Correct. Your OP was well-written, Scoot, and I agree with it.

The above, however, is where all the problem was. They were holding themselves to have made a covenant before God, but they had not yet made a covenant before men, and that is just as important. If there is no covenant made before men, no public declaration of marriage has legally been announced, and that means that legally in the sight of men they are both still up for grabs.

Were they partly in the wrong by their attitude? Yes, but it may have been based largely on this misunderstanding, and now that they were getting married precisely to "shut everybody up," they were actually fulfilling the other end of why a covenant needs to be made publicly. I would have attended with smiles, and said, "Thank you. I will never say another word," and congratulated them with all my heart. If I could afford it, I would have also given them a generous wedding gift, to let them know I wished them the very best.

Blessings in Christ, and that's simply my take on the matter, but each man must follow his own conscience.

Hidden

 

[Scoot]

Did you answer the last (and very important question) ?
Were they sleeping around with others , and was that noted before we started dialogue ?

Sorry - I thought I had. No - not at the time of their relationship, but Yes - they had been with others prior. As such - can you please advise if that would make them living in Adultery in your view instead - since they are already 'made one' and bound to another?

I've also heard the argument that the first person you sleep with is your spouse and that defines marriage and the covenant - the act is the covenant that is made. Even if that was the case - in this particular instance - that would make them being with each other adultery (without going into the details of their past history).

I find this raises questions for me, were they Christians when they had previous partners and how did you react and respond then, did you feel the same conviction about what they were doing ?

We weren't made aware of it at the time of previous relationships - only after the relationship was over (and before this one started). They were done in secret, and lied about throughout. It only came out afterwards. As such there wasn't really any scripture that I saw giving us instructions in that instance.

I was thinking about some of the passages you shared- we know that Jesus was often showing the people that he came to bring about change, and that he did not agree with how the Pharisees did things. Their attitudes were all wrong , but they found it very easy to sit in judgement of others. I was thinking about the women caught in adultery - Jesus never condemned her, but he didn’t deny the sin either. I found myself looking up the following words .......
‘ condemn ‘ means to express complete disapproval
‘ Judge ‘ means to form an opinion or conclusion about
‘ conviction’ means a formal declaration of a jury or a judge in a court of law

I found myself thinking about Jesus being the judge , and about us praying about a situation, like the one you have used as an example. Using Jesus as a filter, so that He becomes the judge , not us. Then if we feel a conviction, we then seek guidance over what The Lord wants us to do, personally. In other words we may form opinions and conclusions about people ( which is internal , remember Jesus came to show that it wasn’t just our actions that can be wrong but also our thoughts )
When we express complete disapproval we are condemning

When we just choose to condemn because of our opinions and conclusions, we are acting on those inner judgements without going to the real judge. So maybe righteous judgement is only achieved with the Lords involvement.

You know you said about different people having different convictions about things , well could that be because we are all used in different ways in the lives of others . Is it more a case of the Lord knitting things together to eventually come together and have an effect in another person life.

I am just waffling now - It late and I am tired !!!

I don't see that as waffling at all - I actually see some profound points. I think it lies in part with what @Funny bird mentioned - is what we did judgemental? Or is what we did being obedient to God's word - and it is God's word that is already judging their actions?

The strange thing is - others told them outright what they were doing was wrong and living in sin (but agreed to attend the reception anyway).

The pastor also stated it was sin - to the point that he said he would not marry them unless they separated, and got Christian counseling and dealt with their issues first (but as mentioned later caved in).

Would not either of these be considered judging if what we did was too?

Then there were others chose not to attend the reception but were dishonest to them about the reasons why.

Strangely - none of these were seen by anyone as being 'judgmental' or being wrong, or any offense was taken to them.

Conversely - we still spoke to them. We still loved them. We didn't shun them, and we desperately wanted to see them succeed in Christ and in their relationship. We still wanted the best for them, and discussed with them openly our concerns, not judgmentally - but in conversation like we are now. We admitted we could be wrong - but at that point, with our study, prayer and fasting - we had a conviction and we had to put God first.

The only action that we took was to decline an invitation to their reception, and explained honestly and openly to them truthfully that we felt convicted not to attend the reception because of the scripture in Corinthians. That was it. Yet we were condemned (and still are) for our actions as being judgmental. I'm struggling to reconcile between the two outcomes about why what others did was acceptable and right, and our actions are considered harsh and judgmental.

Again, I'm not saying that I was wrong, but I'm open to it - however with whatever yard stick is used to measure what our response should have been regarding scripture in this situation - I believe that same yard stick needs to be applied to the rest of scripture equally.

So i that light - I'm not trying to be argumentative at all (even though it may come across that way - and I apologise if it does to everyone) - but I'm not one who is willing to use different levels of obedience to different scripture to fit in with someone's belief or expectation. That's why when I consider the yardstick that Joseph is using - I look at how it's applied across the rest of scripture. If the 'act' is the covenant of marriage and no witnessing is required - then it opens up other problems in this instance with their prior relationships. It's not to be argumentative - it's just my way of applying my understanding of scripture equally - otherwise I know I could easilly practice eisegesis if I don't keep an eye out for myself.

Thank you all so much for your kind replies!

 

[101G]

Addressing the OP only, not have read all the post, you hit it on the head, John 7:24 the righteous judgment, which lead to edification. example, if you haven't seen your neighbor in a couple of days where as before you saw them every day or every other day. so you go and check on them to see if they are ok. here you judge right for concern.

then there is a unjust, or condemnation judgment which is the opposit of a righteous judgment, where one find fault. but the Holy Spirit via his apostle Paul makes it very clear. Romans 14:13 "Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way."

hope that help.

PICJAG.

 

[Joseph77]

I raise this topic, not looking to preach - but looking for answers, and would love comment on where I am wrong, or what I'm missing, or what I could have done better in the scenario below.

Well, with the latest (today) revealed information the whole premise/question of the OP is changed, isn't it?
Probably will be a lot more clear and simple , later, God Willing.
This whole thread without starting with the right information, might be a good example ... ...

 

[Scoot]

Well, with the latest (today) revealed information the whole premise/question of the OP is changed, isn't it?
Probably will be a lot more clear and simple , later, God Willing.
This whole thread without starting with the right information, might be a good example ... ...

I'm sorry about that Joseph. It isn't my intention for the premise to change. I didn't think the other information was relevant initially because I never had the thought from the perspective that you were coming from - and it's only as we have conversation that I see other aspects that may be relevant from your perspective where other information became more relevant.

I'm only seeing dimly (if even that) and am trying my best to improve myself, learn and grow, from my actions past and present through to how I relate and converse with people on this board. Please accept my apology.

 

[Rita]

Hi Scoot
To be honest , the whole situation seems a bit of a mess. Your friends appear to have gone from one deception to another and haven’t like it when they have been held to account. It sounds as if others , perhaps , enabled the couple to do what they wanted without any accountability in the end. You and your wife stuck to what you felt was right.
We sadly can not control how others perceive our actions, and in many respects they too are forming judgments about you and your wife. The Lord knows the truth and The Lord equally knows the hearts of the couple. He deals with things in his own timing. What any of us say and do is but a small piece of puzzle that contributes to a bigger picture - but also is a price of puzzle in our own bigger picture. Romans 8:28 is always a good verse to go back to and pray for the good that will be reaped on day.
Also who knows how everyone else is feeling about the whole situation, your actions could well be used to make others think about how they handled it.

I would suspect that you and your wife feel hurt by the way it’s all be viewed , and perhaps feel a need for vindication - another thing we have to have patience with and leave with the Lord. Obedience is not easy at times is it xx
Rita

 

[Taken]

Judge Not...
^ OP

Of course people Judge and Discriminate.
If not...how can one make Determinations between this and that?

The KEY is to Judge rightly, according to True Facts.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Enoch111]

"Judge not, that you may not be judged."

Since judging righteously is not forbidden, this probably relates to sitting in judgment unjustly over the eternal destiny of others. Only God knows who is (or will be) saved and who is not (or will not) be saved.

 

[Rita]

@Hidden In Him
The above, however, is where all the problem was. They were holding themselves to have made a covenant before God, but they had not yet made a covenant before men, and that is just as important. If there is no covenant made before men, no public declaration of marriage has legally been announced, and that means that legally in the sight of men they are both still up for grabs.

Just curious, why do we call it ‘ living in sin ‘ if it is the covenant with man that a marriage actually achieves . If it is viewed that the coming together is a covenant between them and God then moving in with one another, is in essence showing people that they are committed to one another.

I am not sure where I sit with the marriage service itself, and the biblical aspect. It’s not completely evident how marriage took place in the OT as such, and look how many wives some had, and sometimes they just took another wife !
Why was that never seen as ‘ living in sin ‘ , God never seemed to have a problem with it unless it involved taking another mans wife !
Sorry @Scoot , a slight digression.
Rita

 

[Rita]

Hi Scoot,
I decided to look at the verses you mentioned this morning. I didn’t find them to be contradictory, more so I found them to be addressing different aspects of judgement.
John 7:24 and John 8:1-7 In context I found that they were dealing directly to the Pharisees , they judged but had murder on their hearts and were endeavouring to draw Jesus into a trap. They didn’t like the fact that he healed on the sabbath, despite the fact they circumcised on the same day. They wanted to find him guilty of breaking the Law so that they could accuse him. They change the law to suit themselves as both the man and women would have been judged under the law. The Romans didn’t allow the Jews to carry out death So they were endeavouring to create issues between the Romans and Jesus.
This is judging clearly with very wrong motives - right from the start it had nothing to do with what Jesus or the women were doing.

2John 1-9
I did not see this is the same way as you. ‘ If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching , do not take him into your house or welcome him ‘ this appears to be in reference to anyone who denies that Jesus has come in the flesh. I don’t see this as being applicable for all teaching.

1 Corinthians 5:7-13

This does appear to be applicable but it raised some issues with me.
1. the immoral behaviour was ‘ of a kind that does not even occur among pagans ‘ - it was extreme. A son sleeping with his fathers wife !!
However it would appear that none of the church were bothered by what was going on.
2. The church were to act when they came together in the power of the Lord Jesus ( does that mean it should be a collective decision )
3. There is a list of other things that required the same action ‘ greedy, idolaters, slanderer, drunkard, and swindler ‘. Is it right to address the issues in one persons life and ignore the rest of the potential issues that could also be going on. Don’t you find that accountability has been selective within the church.

4. One thing that jumped out of me was Paul’s comment about not judging those outside the church ‘ what business is it of mine to judge those outside the church ‘ So what has gone wrong because there are an awful lot of Christians that seem to think that is exactly what they should be doing.

Discipline is helpful if done on the right way, and I do agree with this aspect. I am just not sure whether I agree with it being as individuals ( if it is a problem within the congregation ) or whether I believe that it should be an authoritative stand that the elders and ministers should be involved with. That way it would protect individuals and not make it so personal.

5. I find myself considering the fact that those in authority within your church did make a stand and then it changed, you said they caved in - but could there be more to that aspect. Could the refusal to marry them have caused the couple to re think !?
If they didn’t, and the minister did cave in - does that then raise the question of whether the minister himself Is in need of discipline !! ( said with a smile, but if he felt something was wrong and then wavered and went along with it , is he not being double minded ) What else would he be willing to allow !

Still pondering - I did find myself praying and interceding for the church in general as I do feel that accountability is lacking and we have allowed some things to just co exist within the church ( slander and gossip , greed ect ) Is it a leadership problem or a Congregational one.

How many of us have been afraid to rock the boat, or when issues are raised have taken offence, or tended to look outside the church and judge before we check out ourselves ......question questions, I usually end up with more of those than answers !!
Anyway that’s the result of my reflective time on my day off- it’s a beautiful summers day here in the UK- so I am going to go outside and enjoy my sea view with a cup of coffee - have a blessed day xxx
I am praying for you and your wife - and your friends - hope that is okay xx
Rita

 

[bbyrd009]

Are you saying that I shouldn't have been truthful to them about the reasons why I was attending and instead give them another reason so it doesn't hit as hard?

I appreciate your input, and I'm looking for clarification where I could have improved - but I don't believe being dishonest is the right way to go about it - even if it's to 'soften the blow'.

My understanding is that Love does not always mean being kind. In contrast - true love sometimes inflicts pain because truth can hurt - especially when someone is in the wrong and needs correcting. (Proverbs 13:24, Proverbs 27:6)

Confronting sin is never a pleasant thing to do - but to ignore it and allow someone to continue to Hell may seem kind, but in my view it's the most unloving thing to do. Jesus called out the Pharisee's (and with some pretty tough words).

I agree with you that Jesus never avoided any kind of sinner. But we see that God shows Grace to the humble - but He resists the proud. (James 4:6).

If they admitted their sin, if they didn't claim to be right before God, or if they even said they were no longer believers, I feel that would have then fallen outside the scope of 1 Cor 5:11. But they claimed to be right before God, good Christians and kept living that way. How else does one apply 1 Cor 5:11 in that situation?

isnt their "sin" that they refused to acknowledge your understanding of "legal marriage," and instead considered themselves married @ consummation? Would a little child have had this same opinion, do you think?

 

[Scoot]

Thanks Rita for your post. I appreciate your input and the time you take to write things out clearly and in detail...

Just to touch on one thing...

1 Corinthians 5:7-13

This does appear to be applicable but it raised some issues with me.
1. the immoral behaviour was ‘ of a kind that does not even occur among pagans ‘ - it was extreme. A son sleeping with his fathers wife !!

That was indeed the start of the chapter - but Paul goes on to deal with not only that, but also not having company with fornicators - (but vs 10 clarifies - not fornicators of this world, but in the church (and as you mention, lists a few other issues as well)).

As I read it - I read it that Paul is addressing that there are issues the church should have dealt with that they left untouched, to a point where the church was ignoring even things that the pagans wouldn't do. Is this an example of a church taking "Judge Not" to the point of ignoring and not dealing with sin in the church, and Paul clarifying what it was about.

I am praying for you and your wife - and your friends - hope that is okay xx
Rita

Thank you so much. It's always more than OK to pray! We'll take all the prayers we can get. But as for them - please pray for their salvation. This example I used occurred over a decade ago. The relationship didn't last much more than a year after they got married and then they've split up and have been with with other partners since and have completely walked away from God. Interestingly enough though - both are very happy to talk with us (individually, obviously not together) and hold no grudge for what we did.

isnt their "sin" that they refused to acknowledge your understanding of "legal marriage," and instead considered themselves married @ consummation? Would a little child have had this same opinion, do you think?

Thanks for your input @bbyrd009.

It wasn't just our understanding. As I mentioned - the church (and pastors as well) had issues with their relationship. The church leaders, elders, etc all saw it as fornication - so it wasn't just 'my' view. The difference here is the response by the pastors, church and us to this.

Additionally - it seems Joseph77 seems to have the same view as you - but my question then is - how does this scripture apply? If it's not dealing with sleeping with each other before committing to marriage (such as making a conveneant between man and God - and witnessed by man) - because sleeping with each other = marriage - then it seems to appears to annul the scripture. Where would you say that 1 Cor 5:7-10 should apply?

Likewise, I'd also like to hear your thoughts on (the same question I asked Jospeh, but I don't recall a answer to it) - if one takes that view - since they both had sexual relationships with other people prior to this - wouldn't that make what they did adultery in this case - because their consummated and married to those previous people instead?