Gray_Joy
Active Member
The sheep are those in Christ. Who demonstrated Godly virtues while on Earth.
The goats are those who failed to show compassion,mercy, charity,Godly virtues.
Judgement Seat of Christ for who ?
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The goats are those who failed to show compassion,mercy, charity,Godly virtues.
Where in Scripture do we read of reward(S) being handed out to believers? We NEVER read of reward(S) for believers at the judgment. There is ALWAYS only one REWARD, and that is the same REWARD that every believer shall receive at the end of this world. Why would believers have to give account of themselves for doing good since when Christ comes again at the last trumpet believers have already been declared righteous and clothed with immortal/incorruptible flesh?
1 Corinthians 15:52-53 (KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Revelation 11:18 (KJV) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Genesis 15:1 (KJV) After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
The only one with "bad doctrinal influences" is you, because you have bought into the lie that when believers are born again the ETERNAL/EVERLASTING LIFE we possess can be lost, because we have NOT eternal life until the end of this world
Of course that is what it says, because in life before death we already inherited ETERNAL LIFE through the judgment of Christ! The Bible is replete with verses that prove the life we receive when we have been born again in Christ shall NEVER END or be lost.
You say this, but you also say that we are NOT ETERNALLY SECURE in the Kingdom of God NOW, from the moment we are born again! God does not make mistakes! When we have entered the Kingdom of God through the Spirit of Christ in us, we are eternally secure there forever! That's why we shall inherit the promised REWARD of everlasting immortal life with Christ on the new earth forever.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I agree, but what I'm asking is how does this fit with your understanding of the judgment seat of Christ and the great white throne judgment? I see them as all referring to the same day of judgment. Do you see Matthew 25:31-46 as being a separate judgment from the judgment seat of Christ and from the great white throne judgment, which would mean you believe in 3 separate judgments?
What do you see as the difference between the description of the sheep appearing before Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46 and appearing before the judgment seat of Christ? And what do you see as the difference between the goats being cast into everlasting fire in Matthew 25:41 and those whose names are not written in the book of life being cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:15?
>>>>>"John 5:22 Tells us all judgement will be given through the Son.
Agreed and the judgement for believers saved by the Gal 1:11-12, 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 Gospel is JSOC
JSOC:-
Anyone saved by the 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 Gospel taught by Christ to Paul Gal 1:11-12.
Rom 14:10
for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
1 Cor 3:10-15
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
2 Cor 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
'Liking' a post does not equate to agreeing with everything that particular poster writes.
People that have liked some of mine with one hand have come with the other hand ready for war :)
Gray_Joy
Active Member
What do you mean when you say this?
Anyone saved by the 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 Gospel taught by Christ to Paul
Are others not saved according to Paul's gospel unsaved?
It's the saving Gospel today for everyone in which Paul was the first
1 Tim 1:16
Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
...
Everyone today
Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Col 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
First, you ask me a question and then, before giving me a chance to answer, you answer your own question. How about just letting me answer the question first before you answer it, eh? Every believer will receive the reward of eternal life in the kingdom of God prepared from the foundation of the world at that time when Jesus returns with His angels. But, scripture does speak of other rewards that believers will be given at that time.
The reward of eternal life in the kingdom of God is not a reward that is earned by good works, it is a reward for obeying God's command to repent and surrender one's life to Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. It is a reward for accepting God's gracious offer of the gift of salvation/eternal life (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 6:23, Matthew 22:1-14, Titus 2:11). It's not earned, it's a gracious gift that we receive through faith.
But, scripture speaks of other kinds of rewards for believers as well. Such as in the following passage...
1 Corinthians 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
I believe "the Day" here is the day of judgment when Jesus returns, as described in Matthew 25:31-46. We can see here a description of believers receiving a reward if their work or deeds are such that they were found to be enduring. And you can see that any other kind of work "is burned" and the person "will suffer loss" of reward, but they still "will be saved" and have eternal life.
You might disagree, that this passage is referring to something that will happen on the day Jesus returns, so I will back that up by showing what Jesus Himself said about believers receiving rewards beyond eternal life. But, I wanted to first show this passage to prove that believers will be given other rewards besides the ultimate reward of eternal life.
So, in the following parable about His return, Jesus indicates that there will be varying rewards given to believers when He returns.
Luke 19:11 Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately. 12 Therefore He said: “A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Do business till I come.’ 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We will not have this man to reign over us.’ 15 “And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned ten minas.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’ 18 And the second came, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned five minas.’ 19 Likewise he said to him, ‘You also be over five cities.’ 20 “Then another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief. 21 For I feared you, because you are [b]an austere man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 And he said to him, ‘Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow. 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’ 24 “And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.’ 25 (But they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten minas.’) 26 ‘For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ”
Just as a FYI to anyone reading along who might not know, minas represented about three months salary at that time. This is a parable, so this is not about Jesus actually giving each person a certain amount of money and then testing to see how well they invest it. It's about the abilities (talents, gifts) and resources that each person is given by Jesus/God and what they do with them. While we are not required to do good works to earn salvation and eternal life, God does have expectations of us to make use of the talents and gifts that He gives us rather than not being appreciative and not being willing to use them to serve Him and help advance His kingdom rather than letting them go to waste. But, the point related to the discussion I'm making here is that Jesus indicated that different levels of rewards will be given to each believer based on how well they used the abilities and resources that God gave them. The reward is figuratively represented as being given authority over cities, but He did not indicate what that will represent in reality. But, it will be a reward of some kind.
Your claim that "We NEVER read of reward(S) for believers at the judgment. There is ALWAYS only one REWARD, and that is the same REWARD that every believer shall receive at the end of this world." is clearly false. Both Jesus and Paul clearly taught that some believers will receive rewards even beyond the reward of eternal life in the kingdom of God that we will all receive.
See above. Believers will be rewarded when Jesus returns for doing good and, as Paul indicated, there will be loss of reward for the things we did that are not good (possibly not just bad things, but also things that aren't necessarily bad, but that didn't have eternal significance and aren't deserving of any reward).
You are trying to turn this into a OSAS vs. NOSAS debate, but that is not what we're debating and I'm not going there. You know I'm not shy about debating that topic, but I'm not interested in doing that here because it distracts from what we're actually debating in this thread. We're debating how many judgment events there will be and whether the judgment seat of Christ, throne of His judgment and great white throne are the same or not. And, now that you have claimed that we will only receive one reward, we're now also debating how many rewards we receive.
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Gray_Joy
Active Member
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Of course not, but I find it very strange for any amillennialist to agree with a pre-trib dispensationalist on this particular topic. Most amillennialists agree that there is one future day of judgment (one judgment event) when all people will be rewarded or punished and that's what we see described in Matthew 25:31-46.
I fully understand that. I agree completely with some people here on some things and completely disagree with them on other things. It's kind of hard to believe it can be like that, but it is.
Si you are not Scripture nor are you my Christ selected Apostle to teach me how to be saved
....
Who did Christ select as the Apostle & Minister to the Gentiles ?
Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, ...
Rom 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles...
Rom 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God...
+++
The other Apostles agreed & knew who taught who
Gal 2:2
And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles,....
Gal 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:9
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
++++
What is the role of an Apostle/Minister ?
To teach THEIR audience.
BUT NOW there are NO SEPARATE audiences ALL are equal :-
Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Col 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
++++
How are believers 'today' saved, sealed, justified, made righteous ?
By the SAVING Gospel that applies today.
Gal 1:11-12
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Eph 1:13
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
++++
The PERFORMANCE conditions :-
Titus 3:
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Rom 3:
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Eph 2:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 4:
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
++++
Your 'deeds'/works/behavior/performance only decide your eternal rewards/loss
Rom 14:10
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
1 Cor 3:10-15
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
2 Cor 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Have a read of these verses :)
..
Who did Christ select as the Apostle & Minister to the Gentiles ?
Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, ...
Rom 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles...
Rom 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God...
+++
The other Apostles agreed & knew who taught who
Gal 2:2
And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles,....
Gal 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:9
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
++++
What is the role of an Apostle/Minister ?
To teach THEIR audience.
BUT NOW there are NO SEPARATE audiences ALL are equal :-
Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Col 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
++++
How are believers 'today' saved, sealed, justified, made righteous ?
By the SAVING Gospel that applies today.
Gal 1:11-12
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Eph 1:13
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
++++
The PERFORMANCE conditions :-
Titus 3:
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Rom 3:
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Eph 2:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 4:
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
++++
Your 'deeds'/works/behavior/performance only decide your eternal rewards/loss
Rom 14:10
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
1 Cor 3:10-15
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
2 Cor 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Did you somehow miss that the post of mine you replied to here was not directed to you? I was talking to rwb.
I actually agree with all of that, so I truly have no idea what I said that prompted this.
Gray_Joy
Active Member
Why not answer my question?
It only requires a yes, or no.
The Gospel of Jesus and his 12 Apostles isn't for today?
In that case we are in agreement.
A Eph 4:30 sealed till redemption believer can never become UNsealed & is eternally saved.
The 12 Apostles taught a SIMILAR Gospel to Paul
Today we are saved by the Gospel taught by Christ (Gal 1:11-12) to Paul
Gray_Joy
Active Member
Who did the twelve Apostles who were taught by Jesus and journeyed with him save?
Gray_Joy
Active Member
How do you mean that?
Were they saved and sealed by his holy Spirit the moment they believed?
Acts 2:38, Acts 8:14-18 teaches how believers THEN received the HS
Eph 1:13 teaches how the HS is received today.
What differences do you see ?
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