Judging Vx Not Judging

[JohnDB]

Consider this scripture...

Rev 2:20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.

Now weigh carefully the issues at hand. There were no real denominations at this time. There was only one "church" per city to go to. One group of believers. (their numbers were so small)

Denominational lines were pretty much city specific.

This city was hard at work doing as Christ had directed...God really did appreciate their efforts. He had noticed their love for their fellow man and their witnessing with real world actions.
But...they allowed this woman, who claimed to be a prophetess, to be included in their ranks as a leader. She in turn led many into sexual immorality.

Does this mean that today we should no longer refer to as Christian those denominations which knowingly put into places of leadership openly practicing homosexuals as Priests/Pastors/leaders ?

This is going to exclude many of the once stalwart denominations from having that designation. (Methodists, Lutheran, and etc)

 

[jerryjohnson]

Consider this scripture...

Rev 2:20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.

Now weigh carefully the issues at hand. There were no real denominations at this time. There was only one "church" per city to go to. One group of believers. (their numbers were so small)

Denominational lines were pretty much city specific.

This city was hard at work doing as Christ had directed...God really did appreciate their efforts. He had noticed their love for their fellow man and their witnessing with real world actions.
But...they allowed this woman, who claimed to be a prophetess, to be included in their ranks as a leader. She in turn led many into sexual immorality.

Does this mean that today we should no longer refer to as Christian those denominations which knowingly put into places of leadership openly practicing homosexuals as Priests/Pastors/leaders ?

This is going to exclude many of the once stalwart denominations from having that designation. (Methodists, Lutheran, and etc)

John, You need to "rightly divide." Is this text in our Dispensation of Grace? You don't want to be a part of this Assembly; if it doesn't change it will lose its candlestick!

 

[JohnDB]

John, You need to "rightly divide." Is this text in our Dispensation of Grace? You don't want to be a part of this Assembly; if it doesn't change it will lose its candlestick!

There are divisions within the Lutheran header such as LCMS Wells and all kinds of divisions...and I don't even pretend to understand them all.

Also there are divisions under the heading of Methodist...And I can't remember them either. LOL

Apparently there seems to be as many brands of Methodist and Lutherans as there are brands of Baptists.

I know I have many friends of these two denominations headers that would never stand for a homosexual pastoral staff. Under any circumstances...so please do not be offended.

BUT

There is a paradox here.

When also being keenly aware of the story of the Woman Caught in the Act of Adultery in John 8...Jesus did not want her stoned. The Woman at the Well also was living in an adulterous relationship.

Somewhere in all of this is a paradox...and a path of righteousness that we must follow.

Anyone want to take a stab at it?

 

[jerryjohnson]

John,

I'm talking about "rightly dividing the Word of God." Where was John when he wrote the letters to the Assemblies? Was he in the dispensation of Grace?

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

1 Corinthians 5
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

 

[JohnDB]

John,

I'm talking about "rightly dividing the Word of God." Where was John when he wrote the letters to the Assemblies? Was he in the dispensation of Grace?

I'm sorry...I haven't the foggiest clue as to what it is that you are trying to say here.

Grace has been dispensed to mankind ever since Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the wrong tree. They were forgiven even though they were promised death.

Same goes for Cain. Sampson also looked like a goner...but...He got his strength back one more time.

David deserved to be executed as well...but he didn't get stoned...he was forgiven and remained the king.
Even the worst King in Israel's history was forgiven. (Manasseh) Which if that isn't unmerited favor I don't know the meaning of the word grace.

So...this "dispensation of grace" thingy you are referring to...I simply don't understand it.
Sounds like the teaching of some particular preacher or another...sorry....I ain't a fan of anyone but Jesus.


The scripture is clear as to which books they are coming from.

1 Corinthians 5
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

But...what about the Woman at the Well?

She was clearly an adulteress. Jesus even said that she was. (I try not to go against what He says either)

But...

Jesus chose her as to be the first Samaritan believer on his Samaritan campaign. That is a very special designation. He didn't tell her to "go and sin no more" like he did the Adulterous woman that they were fixing to stone in John 8.


So...somewhere in all of this is a paradox. a path that needs to be "discovered". And a truth that is worth finding.

 

[jerryjohnson]

I'm sorry...I haven't the foggiest clue as to what it is that you are trying to say here.

Grace has been dispensed to mankind ever since Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the wrong tree. They were forgiven even though they were promised death.

Same goes for Cain. Sampson also looked like a goner...but...He got his strength back one more time.

David deserved to be executed as well...but he didn't get stoned...he was forgiven and remained the king.
Even the worst King in Israel's history was forgiven. (Manasseh) Which if that isn't unmerited favor I don't know the meaning of the word grace.

So...this "dispensation of grace" thingy you are referring to...I simply don't understand it.
Sounds like the teaching of some particular preacher or another...sorry....I ain't a fan of anyone but Jesus.


The scripture is clear as to which books they are coming from.
.

It's clear to me that you have no idea what you are talking about. See ya!

 

[fivesense]

It's clear to me that you have no idea what you are talking about. See ya!

Seems like lots of subject in DB's post. Almost feels like a wrest-fest.
fivesense

 

[ronniechoate34]

Psalms:51:17: The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.


Isa:57:15: For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.


Isa:66:2: For all those things hath mine hand made, and those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

 

[JohnDB]

It's clear to me that you have no idea what you are talking about. See ya!

On one hand Jesus is condemning this church in Thyatira for not condemning this woman named Jezebel...especially for sexual immorality.

But we also have two very explicit cases of Jesus showing Grace to these two specific individuals for their sexual immorality.


That to me shows a paradox.

And I gave you a perfect opportunity to explain yourself with your "Dispensation of grace" expression but instead you wish to belittle me for not knowing?

Your action doesn't sound like grace to me.

Psalms:51:17: The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.


Isa:57:15: For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.


Isa:66:2: For all those things hath mine hand made, and those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

OK...exactly what are you trying to show with these three different scripture quotes.
Can you explain them?

 

[jerryjohnson]

On one hand Jesus is condemning this church in Thyatira for not condemning this woman named Jezebel...especially for sexual immorality.

But we also have two very explicit cases of Jesus showing Grace to these two specific individuals for their sexual immorality.


That to me shows a paradox.

And I gave you a perfect opportunity to explain yourself with your "Dispensation of grace" expression but instead you wish to belittle me for not knowing?

Your action doesn't sound like grace to me.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[ronniechoate34]

On one hand Jesus is condemning this church in Thyatira for not condemning this woman named Jezebel...especially for sexual immorality.

But we also have two very explicit cases of Jesus showing Grace to these two specific individuals for their sexual immorality.


That to me shows a paradox.

And I gave you a perfect opportunity to explain yourself with your "Dispensation of grace" expression but instead you wish to belittle me for not knowing?

Your action doesn't sound like grace to me.






OK...exactly what are you trying to show with these three different scripture quotes.
Can you explain them?

I'm only pointing out the fact that we must be contrite and broken hearted in order to receive the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[JohnDB]

I'm only pointing out the fact that we must be contrite and broken hearted in order to receive the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ahhh...

Now that does seem to begin to make some sense here.

Repentance means to turn completely away...to do a 180 degree turn around from the actions of old and into a new direction.

Instead of self-centered and self-pleasing turn around to become God-centered and Jesus Pleasing...

But today...

We have a few groups out there who seem to want to teach in the Name of Christ that Homosexuality is a minor sin that can be forgiven...no worse than a touch of false humility needs forgiveness.

And for some reason this woman Jezebel is being condemned...and those who accepted her were being addressed for their tolerance of her presence amongst them...even if they didn't share her views.

 

[ronniechoate34]

Ahhh...

Now that does seem to begin to make some sense here.

Repentance means to turn completely away...to do a 180 degree turn around from the actions of old and into a new direction.

Instead of self-centered and self-pleasing turn around to become God-centered and Jesus Pleasing...

But today...

We have a few groups out there who seem to want to teach in the Name of Christ that Homosexuality is a minor sin that can be forgiven...no worse than a touch of false humility needs forgiveness.

And for some reason this woman Jezebel is being condemned...and those who accepted her were being addressed for their tolerance of her presence amongst them...even if they didn't share her views.

That should give us all many things to think about. For example, does it please God for Christians to attend sin filled movies? Is God granting us grace so that we can be entertained by sin? So what if we don't commit the sin. The fact that people find it entertaining to watch someone sin all the way to hell actually says a lot about those people who find those things entertaining.

 

[JohnDB]

That should give us all many things to think about. For example, does it please God for Christians to attend sin filled movies? Is God granting us grace so that we can be entertained by sin? So what if we don't commit the sin. The fact that people find it entertaining to watch someone sin all the way to hell actually says a lot about those people who find those things entertaining.

But that is another issue.

What we are looking at here is the proclamation that Homosexuality or some other kind of sexual immorality such as "shacking up" is "OK" with God. That is what this woman Jezebel was promoting obviously.

Granted...God apparently gave both the Samaritan woman time enough to "clean up her act"...and get married. Maybe...dunno...the bible doesn't say. This woman Jezebel was given enough time to repent of her ways and teaching but she wouldn't listen....and she continued.

Jesus had said that anyone causing one of these "children to stumble" that it would be better for a milestone to be wrapped around their necks and for them to be dropped into the sea...


So...what was the case with Peter teaching heresy?
He had the hardest time setting aside "the Law"....especially when the "Law is good"...I can see how he had a hard time with it.

BUT

Jesus had told him to stop...Paul had told him to stop...he had a vision...And witnessed miracles with his own eyes to confirm that he should stop. But he continued anyway...with brief reprieves from time to time. (Except the last time I believe when Paul explained it to him)

So....
Maybe some of this "higher Theology" that is so prevalant amongst "Christiandom" needs to be set aside.
Main reason...it just might be wrong.

 

[ronniechoate34]

But that is another issue.

What we are looking at here is the proclamation that Homosexuality or some other kind of sexual immorality such as "shacking up" is "OK" with God. That is what this woman Jezebel was promoting obviously.

Granted...God apparently gave both the Samaritan woman time enough to "clean up her act"...and get married. Maybe...dunno...the bible doesn't say. This woman Jezebel was given enough time to repent of her ways and teaching but she wouldn't listen....and she continued.

Jesus had said that anyone causing one of these "children to stumble" that it would be better for a milestone to be wrapped around their necks and for them to be dropped into the sea...


So...what was the case with Peter teaching heresy?
He had the hardest time setting aside "the Law"....especially when the "Law is good"...I can see how he had a hard time with it.

BUT

Jesus had told him to stop...Paul had told him to stop...he had a vision...And witnessed miracles with his own eyes to confirm that he should stop. But he continued anyway...with brief reprieves from time to time. (Except the last time I believe when Paul explained it to him)

So....
Maybe some of this "higher Theology" that is so prevalant amongst "Christiandom" needs to be set aside.
Main reason...it just might be wrong.

You've confused me.:mellow:


What is "higher theology"?

 

[RobinD69]

"Go and sin no more" He said it to the woman at the well and the woman caught in adultry. Any Church or denomination that condones sin is not of Christ.

 

[JohnDB]

"Go and sin no more" He said it to the woman at the well and the woman caught in adultry. Any Church or denomination that condones sin is not of Christ.

He didn't say it to the "woman at the well".

 

[ronniechoate34]

JohnDB, what is "higher theology"? I don't mean to annoy you, or test your patience but I'm having a little trouble understanding. Would you please provide me with a current example?

 

[JohnDB]

JohnDB, what is "higher theology"? I don't mean to annoy you, or test your patience but I'm having a little trouble understanding. Would you please provide me with a current example?

I believe it is usually something akin to what is known commonly as the "finer points" of theology.

IOW something other than the basics that we are absolutely confident of. Things that are plainly expressed in scripture.

During the time that Jesus was on his tour the Jews had many higher theologies that they debated. It was very common to hear these debates at any bethmidrash or any given Saturday in the synagogues.

Some of them were even addressed by Jesus if a person was to study the anthropology of that day and time.
(Calvinism vx Arminianism comes to mind)

And I don't recall a single episode of Jesus ever speaking highly of any of these theologies...in fact I do know that He regularly despised them, made fun of them, and argued against them. Which is why I wonder why people today still take up the very same lines of debate to this day. Jesus said, "no" but...