Is eternal life the reason you love him? Or is His Creation, all that He has given us, enough? Is our love contingent on rewards, or do we love Him because He is?
Just a Question: If your only time with Jesus was here, would you still love Him?
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Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
How would you like to spend eternity all by yourself? Do you think Jesus would like to spend eternity all by himself?
So it makes sense we should love Jesus, because we'd like for him to love us.
Well, not to sound trite, but I love Him in response to His loving me. Jesus has pulled my life from the ashes, and given me something meaningful, something lovely. And that's now, not in a future age. Though I don't mind that promise, to be sure!
Much love!
When I was born again it was because I saw how wrong I had been to think I was a Christian because I believed in God. I came to Jesus because I saw the truth by reading a little booklet I was given. It took me a while to fall in love with Jesus because of who he revealed himself to be and even if I wasn't promised eternal life with Him I would still love Him.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Lambano
Well-Known Member
I remember a home Bible study in which our leader had had some kind of mystical encounter with Jesus at a Christian youth camp as a teenager, and he had been running off that gasoline ever since. I remember him saying (sometime around Easter) that if there were no resurrection and no World to Come, it would have been enough for him to have known Jesus in this life. At the time I thought he was crackers and told him so, quoting 1 Corinthians 15:19 at him: If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied. That was a much younger me; now I don't think I would say that, though I understand a little better what St. Paul was talking about to the Corinthians. I also think I have seen a glimpse of what Paul said to the Philippians in chapter 3 verse 8 too (though I have yet to suffer the loss of all things): More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord.
Your question assumes Christian metaphysics are true but without eternal life. Some ancient Jews believed essentially the same thing - a creator God but no eternal life (or a shadowy Sheol-for-all half-existence). Certainly, anyone in any religion can have a profound sense of gratitude for the creation and the opportunity simply to be alive in it. Indeed, atheists can and do have pretty much the same sentiments with no thought of a "creation" at all.
There is no way Christian metaphysics "work" without eternal life. If eternal life were not part of the equation, and this hell on earth (relatively speaking) were all there was, then no one would "love" Jesus in the same way. Those whose earthly lives were something other than hideous would simply have reason for some level of gratitude. Many others, not so much or not at all.
Those who say they'd have the same "love" for Jesus if eternal life were not part of the equation are just mouthing pretend-Christian platitudes. It isn't a matter of wanting rewards for following Jesus - it's that Christianity without eternal life is an entirely different religion and dynamic. Without eternal life, Christianity would generate an entirely different response and set of emotions even in devout believers.
Or, you haven't had the experience of meeting Jesus, maybe?
You've said we cannot believe without also having doubt, and now that we would not love Him but for the promise of eternal life. It just makes me wonder whether you've really met Jesus.
Much love!
Your questions are spot on, sister. How many are only here [in churches and such] because they want the promises; they want the blessings. Without those might too many simply be saying forget God; forget Jesus... as they plunge themselves into whatever the world of men has to offer?
Sorry to break up posts . . . my thoughts sometimes come, as they say, in fits and starts.
Your description, this hell on earth, that really resonates with me, because my life has, at least a lot of it, has been hell on earth, for me, but Jesus has rescued me, and is rescuing me, from that hellish existance. So even if this were all there were, it's so much better than what it was, so very much I can hardly describe!
We love Him, not because of His promise for eternal life, but because He first loved us, and has demonstrated His love for us, not only by dying for us on the cross, but in a million different ways during our daily lives.
Much love!
Oh, I'm sure it DOES make you wonder, Brother Muchlove, because you are one of THOSE "Christians." Jesus is such a living presence in YOUR life that you sometimes order an extra Happy Meal at McDonalds and then tell yourself He just must not have been hungry. Platitudes, platitudes, platitudes - can't enough of 'em, Brother Muchlove! Platitude machines who resort to the "not sure you've really met Jesus" ploy are so helpful to the points I try to make that I'd almost have to invent them if they didn't exist.
"Not sure you've really met Jesus" - the last refuge of one who is actually insecure in his own beliefs. "I don't have mere convictions, I KNOW!!!" - ditto.
BTW, I didn'say you and yours wouldn't love Jesus without the promise of eternal life. I said you wouldn't love Jesus in the "same way." Remove the element of eternal life from the equation and you have no idea what your relationship with Jesus would actually look like.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
So the question is, (paraphrased) is, Do we love Jesus for what He has or for Him?
That is a most excellant question. Who don't want eternal life? But on the other hand, if you;ve ever met Him and talked with Him, that would all change! Because He is the coolest friend I have ever had. The way He talks. No one talks like He does. No one is as smart. No one is as generous. Even when He has chastised me so to speak, He does it in the best way possible. He's never even spoke condemnation to me even one time.
Those are all the thngs that makes me appreciate Him as a person and friend. It brought me to realize that...the mansion and treasures that we get in heaven...I dont see where those things will mean a whole lot. Our true reward is to be able to dwell in His presence.
If you've never had Jesus walk into your room before and then He does, you will know what I'm talking about! I guess I will need a place to stay in heaven, but what am I supposed to do with a room full of treasure? No wonder scripture talks about them casting their crowns to the feet of Jesus! The crown will be a good crown I'm sure but That's Jesus so aint no crown valuable either!
I bet we cant even spend our treasures in heaven! The people will simply bless each other with what they need or would like. They wont ask for your credit card!
I'm just wondering, are you married, in a good marriage? Because that can help us understand what it means to be in a relationship with God.
My relationship with Jesus is a right now thing.
Your ridicule reveals yourself, not me.
Much love!
MA2444
Well-Known Member
I think I understand what you're saying. That there is a need to build a resume of trust between us and Jesus?! And this is true to my experience. Ok I believe in God. Then what do I do? well, I pray to Him and ask for things help. I consciously put my trust into Him and believe with faith and trust. Then the Lord responds to that faith and does something to help you. He will do it in such a way that you will know...that was only possible with God. This is something that we can bank on. He has shown us that He is trustworthy.
Then with that added encouragment to our faith, we trust Him again. It wont be an easy thing. We will be in an impossible situation that we have no control of! (The Lord is testing our faith & reaction to a situation where we should trust Him! (I trusted Him before I have to trust Him even more this time!) And it goes back and forth. Then He tells me to do something that I dont want to do! Here I am enjoying getting my feet wet and He's trying to throw me into the deep end!
We must pass those tests. I have several testimonies where He laid seemingly bad things on my plate to see my faith & reactions, and I knew I was supposed to trust Him even if I didnt or couldnt fix the problem in a worldly way. SO faced with this, I laughed and said, Lord I dont know what you are doing and dont understand it, but whatever it is I am just going to trust you that everything will turn out ok...Praise the Lord!
I didnt know it at the time, but it was a test. I remembered the Hebrews in the OT that got swallowed up by the earth because they were complaining and grumbling and so I rescted with laughter & praise rather than grumbling...and it was weird! The problem that had come to light just sort of dissolved and went away! It ws just gone and a supernatural peace came over my spirit, and I knew, I had passed a test! I trusted Him on something I did not want to do. I did it for Him in praise and not grumbling.
It feels so good to pass a test! It was like, Blessings rained on me for a couple days!
We do something for Him. He does something for us. We do something for Him and the resume of trust is being built both ways, so He does more for us.
That's how it's been with me. Seems to be a very personal thing which takes place. And it takes bigger and bigger Belief as you go on. I don't want to disobey Him at all because He's teaching me that He must be able to trust us also!
Married now 49 years. 33 happy years to the lovely Beverly, who died of breast cancer. 16 happy years (and going strong) to the lovely Galina. Sorry to disappoint you.
Yes, my previous post was harsh. I am not intending to ridicule you or your faith. Quite the opposite, really. More like - I don't know - "wake you up," perhaps?
I've been where you're at. Only briefly, thank God, but I've been there. After my startling conversion experience 50+ years ago, I was recruited by both Campus Crusade for Christ and the Southern Baptist Church. To enter Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary required a bevy of pastoral recommendations, interviews and even psychological tests.
Been there, done that.
In my experience and observation, there is a species of Christian, often those coming from a background in addiction, for whom Jesus HAS TO BE their rock, their anchor, their deliverer, their security blanket. He HAS TO BE. There CAN'T BE any acknowledgment of uncertainty, ambiguity or doubt. Always the specter of relapse is there. Jesus HAS TO BE real.
OK, but this is often a brittle and fragile faith that is prone to collapsing like a house of cards. Not always, of course, but it is brittle and fragile. I acknowledged the fragility almost 50 years ago and decided to dive deeper in search of a less-fragile faith.
Oddly, many atheists' non-faith is exactly the same, in reverse. They can't allow slightest uncertainty or doubt, the slightest crack in the wall of their unbelief.
On other threads, I've cited Evangelical Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic and other materials emphasizing that honest doubt is inherent in faith. Every mature Christian knows this. Much as we might like to pretend we do, we don't walk with Jesus as we walk with our living fathers or wives. There is at least a modicum of doubt at multiple levels. Certainty just isn't possible. There is no shame or disbelief in this. Eventually, we may achieve an 'inner knowing" that we insist has eliminated all doubt, but it is still a deep conviction rather than knowledge in an epistemic sense. "Doubt" is not the same as unbelief.
You express doubt as to whether I actually know Jesus at all. Why? Because for your own fragile faith to survive, NO REAL CHRISTIAN CAN HAVE ANY DOUBTS!!! EVERY REAL CHRISTIAN SAYS HE WOULD LOVE JESUS NO MATTER WHAT!!! EVERY REAL CHRISTIAN IS JUST LIKE ME!!!
You can't allow believers like me to be "real" believers because our beliefs are a challenge and threat to your fragile notions. It is ALWAYS the Christians with your sort of understanding who feel compelled to lecture and harangue other believers about the inadquacy of their faith.
I am happy Jesus has rescued you from your previously hellish existence. I am happy He is so real to you. Be happy in this yourself and don't feel compelled to question the faith of the many for whom their relationship with Jesus is not the certainty you say you experience. Don't become a victim of pabulum, platitudes and pretending because your faith will stagnate rather than deepen. (That's not a lecture - merely my experience and observation. The woods are full of angry atheists who once clung to a brittle and fragile belief.)
This is really quite good, if I do say so. It almost sounds like I had @marks in mind when I wrote it, which I didn't.
Knowledge, Certainty, Conviction and Doubt - Epistemology in Christianity
How epistemology relates to Christian belief.
www.christianityboard.com
Also quite good:
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No, that's not a disappointment! I'm glad, because a good marriage is the closest thing we have in this world to exemplify what a relationship with God is like.
You know then how this one primary relationship is so much different, so much greater than any other relationship you have, would you agree?
Relationship with God is even more primary that that.
It's just not sounding like this is true.
No, you have the wrong idea about me.
I agree, and to repeat, my relationship with Jesus is more than my relationship with my wife, and you are mistaken that we don't walk with Jesus moment by moment. That we don't share with Him our thoughts, as He also speaks with us.
Not true.
You know that you know that you know your wife. Ditto. And ditto that I know Jesus. You apparently see this as somehow false in me. What can I tell you?
Again, you really have the wrong idea here. I have such a certainty, I hope the same for you also.
I realize that there are many who are uncertain, but that doesn't mean certainty is impossible.
Just as certain I am that I'm married to my wife, I'm that certain that I'm born again in Christ, and that I know Him, and am united to Him. And I wonder that anyone could be mature in Christ and still harbor doubts.
There's no threat to my faith from you, of any kind. Whether you believe this or that, whether you disbelieve my testimony, I'm still here with Jesus.
This has nothing to do with me. There is nothing brittle or fragile about my faith, rather, fully the opposite. My faith in Christ, my relationship with Jesus, this is my bedrock. You don't sway me. I just want for you the good thing I've found. If you're happy with what you have, I won't gainsay you, I just want good for you.
Much love!
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This is true of all of us who are truly born again. We NEED Jesus. He IS our ROCK and our ANCHOR; he IS our DELIVERER and there IS no 'uncertainty, ambiguity or doubt.'
WalterandDebbie
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Hello Cassandra, And how are you all? Interesting, as much as He has done for us, I would say, personally, Yes, it is a great way to know that GOD loves us so much, That He is mostly that kind of GOD, so we love Him because He is.
Love, Walter
I want to give a couple of thoughts on what you've written here.This is really quite good, if I do say so. It almost sounds like I had @marks in mind when I wrote it, which I didn't.
Knowledge, Certainty, Conviction and Doubt - Epistemology in Christianity
How epistemology relates to Christian belief.
"However, I only believe and experience these things as revelations by God after I've reached a conviction that Christianity is true."
I would respond, reaching a conviction that Christianity is true is the first step. I recall when I became certain that the Bible was true, before I was Christian. I fought against it, but out of an honest heart I yielded to Him.
Believing is to me when we choose to commit ourselves to this truth, embracing it, receiving in fact Jesus to ourselves as our Master and Savior.
But having the conviction that Christianity is true doesn't mean you are Christian. I'm not saying that anyone is or isn't, only, the person who has not received Jesus and been baptize into Him being reborn, will not experience that relationship with God.
"Recognizing that we hold convictions, not knowledge or certainty … seeking always to deepen these convictions through study, reflection, prayer and communion … and accepting the inevitable questions and doubts – this to me is the path to a mature Christianity."
So much of what you wrote in this blog seems about what you think about, what you feel certain of, lots of self-assessment, but what I'm talking about is knowing a Person. A truly 2-sided relationship. Once you've come to know someone, there's not really a question about whether they are real, unless, in fact, one is delusional. I'm not talking about that.
If I were to give a succinct statement of what I see as the path to a mature Christianity, it would be that we come to know Jesus more and more, and in knowing Him more, we become more like Him. We let Him work in us, and through us, and this transforms us to be like Him.
The spirit testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God. This is a real thing.
Yes, McDowell correctly acknowledges that we may have doubts. I believe - I've seen - these doubts are dispelled as we come to know Him, as Person, not a doctrine or theology.
It's been pointed out that doubt is not the opposite of faith. Faith is a spiritual power inside that comes from being joined to the Spirit of Christ, as a result that we've believed His Word, and received Him.
Much love!
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I think you missed the point of my question. Is it just for the reward of eternal life do we say that we love Him?
He could snap His fingers and make more worlds . But He chose to come to us. I don't love people because I'd like them to love me.
I do not understand what you wrote..
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