Just heard about the rosary....

[Angelina]

This is where our doctrines part ways dear sister....was Jesus praying to Elijah and Moses?

I do not speak or pray to angels and I would never speak or pray to those who have departed into heaven....Satan and his minions would have a field day disguising themselves as departed Christian family members or other saints.

The opportunity for deception would be tremendous.

The best option for any believer...is to pray to the Father in Jesus name or to Jesus himself or the Holy Spirit....any other avenue would be incredibly foolish...

Blessings!!!

 

[Selene]

This is where our doctrines part ways dear sister....was Jesus praying to Elijah and Moses?

I do not speak or pray to angels and I would never speak or pray to those who have departed into heaven....Satan and his minions would have a field day disguising themselves as departed Christian family members or other saints.

The opportunity for deception would be tremendous.

The best option for any believer...is to pray to the Father in Jesus name or to Jesus himself or the Holy Spirit....any other avenue would be incredibly foolish...

Blessings!!!

You didn't answer my question. If your father is in Heaven, how is he dead? Didn't Jesus say that those who enter His kingdom have eternal life? Is God the God of the dead or the God of the living? Is God's kingdom filled with death or eternal life?

Also, the word "pray" is an old English word which means "to ask." When we pray to the saints in Heaven, we are asking them to intercede for us. It is the same thing as when you ask your family or friends here on earth to pray for you. God commanded us to pray for one another. This command does not stop when we die and enter God's kingdom. God says to love one another. This command to love others does not stop when we die. Death no longer has any hold on us because Christ conquered death. Death cannot separate us from Christ and from our brothers and sisters in Heaven. God who is love bound us all together for we are one body of Christ. A Christian does not stop being a member of the body of Christ when he/she dies. He/she is still a member of the body of Christ, and Christ's body cannot be separated by death.

As for the transfiguration, Jesus was speaking to Elijah and Moses. In the same way, we also speak to our brothers and sisters in Heaven. We ask them to intercede for us in the same way you would ask your family and friends to intercede for you.

 

[Angelina]

Consider a new believer...would it be wise for your Church to encourage them to pray to a family member who was a believer and is now with the Lord or to the Lord himself???

Shalom!!!

 

[Selene]

Consider a new believer...would it be wise for your Church to encourage them to pray to a family member who was a believer and is now with the Lord or to the Lord himself???

Shalom!!!

We do both. We pray to the Lord and also speak to the family member in Heaven to pray for us. God commanded us to always pray for one another. That command does not stop when we die and enter Heaven.

 

[Angelina]

I do not know why anyone would want to pray to someone who has gone to be with the Lord when they could pray to the Lord himself.
After all, it is he who is the giver and taker of life and it is he, who provides and heals and protects and....I could go on ^_^ but I won't.

Bless you!!!

 

[Mungo]

I do not know why anyone would want to pray to someone who has gone to be with the Lord when they could pray to the Lord himself.
After all, it is he who is the giver and taker of life and it is he, who provides and heals and protects and....I could go on ^_^ but I won't.

Bless you!!!

A few years ago, I was part of a Independent Pentecostal Church. During that time, the gifts were functioning powerfully in the Church. My then Pastor, invited me to come up and pray for one of the Elders.

Did you tell that person that he should pray to the Lord himself?

Or were you honoured to be asked to pray for him?

 

[aspen]

This is where our doctrines part ways dear sister....was Jesus praying to Elijah and Moses?

I do not speak or pray to angels and I would never speak or pray to those who have departed into heaven....Satan and his minions would have a field day disguising themselves as departed Christian family members or other saints.

The opportunity for deception would be tremendous.

The best option for any believer...is to pray to the Father in Jesus name or to Jesus himself or the Holy Spirit....any other avenue would be incredibly foolish...

Blessings!!!

Prayer is talking. It is separate from adoration or worship, which is reserved for God alone.

 

[Angelina]

Did you tell that person that he should pray to the Lord himself?
Or were you honoured to be asked to pray for him?

Mungo...he knows how to pray for himself. This was a time set aside by the Pastor, for people to come up the front to be prayed for, if they wanted to. He asked for prayer... ^_^
It is good to pray to God alone in the inner closet but there is also power in corporate prayer....

Matthew 18
[sup]19 [/sup]“Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. [sup]20 [/sup]For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

Prayer is talking. It is separate from adoration or worship, which is reserved for God alone

Exactly...

Shalom!!!

 

[aspen]

Exactly...

Shalom!!!

I am glad you agree. Since Jesus talked with Elijah and Moses, I am not sure why you are against us talking with the rest of the Living Body we are apart of.

 

[Angelina]

Because it ain't scriptural....unless you wanna try to communicate with Elijah and Moses...as Jesus did???

Think about what was going on at the time...Moses represented the end of the Law and Elijah... the prophets.
All pointing toward Yeshua HaMashiach, the anointed one....He was about to change the world for good...

Romans 3
[sup]21 [/sup]But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. [sup]22 [/sup]This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Be Blessed!!!

 

[aspen]

Sorry Angelina - after reading this entire thread, it is obvious that you just don't like the Rosary - fine, like I said before, don't pray it.

1. You continue to deny that verses in Psalms that are examples of repetitious prayer.
2. You have decided that repetition in worship is fine, but repetition in prayer is bad.
3. You deny Jesus as our example, by claiming that talking to the Living Body is wrong.
4. You have admitted that praying is talking, yet you deny the practice of asking saints at the throne of God to pray for us; which is the same thing as asking a living person on Earth to pray for us.

It doesn't matter to me if you do not like the Rosary, just be honest about your opinion - no need to proof text and deny other scripture to prop up your opinion.

The line of logic you use to explain away the Transfiguration can also be used to explain away Jesus and the disciples 'working' on the Sabbath - are we only allowed to 'work' on the Sabbath only if we are hungry and happen to be in the same wheat field in Jerusalem? Or is there a larger meaning - that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath?

 

[Angelina]

Oh my!, I did not realize that I was on trial here... ^_^

1. You continue to deny that verses in Psalms that are examples of repetitious prayer.
2. You have decided that repetition in worship is fine, but repetition in prayer is bad.

You have already answered that question by defining the difference between the two

Prayer is talking. It is separate from adoration or worship, which is reserved for God alone.

and no, I did not say that repetitious prayer is bad...but "it is what it is"...prayer by rote..

4. You have admitted that praying is talking, yet you deny the practice of asking saints at the throne of God to pray for us; which is the same thing as asking a living person on Earth to pray for us.

Again...not scriptural... please provide scriptural proof, stating that the saints in heaven pray to God on our behalf...

Selene said:

As for the transfiguration, Jesus was speaking to Elijah and Moses. In the same way, we also speak to our brothers and sisters in Heaven. We ask them to intercede for us in the same way you would ask your family and friends to intercede for you.

The bible says:

Romans 8:26
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

Romans 8:27
And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.

Hebrews 7
[sup]24 [/sup]but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. [sup]25 [/sup]Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

1 Timothy 2:4
[sup]5[/sup]For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, [sup]6 [/sup]who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

I am sorry too...that your doctrine does not allow you to think independently or to test the spirits, outside of what your Church teaches....even though scripture disagrees with those beliefs...

Shalom!!!

 

[aspen]

Oh my!, I did not realize that I was on trial here... ^_^



You have already answered that question by defining the difference between the two



and no, I did not say that repetitious prayer is bad...but "it is what it is"...prayer by rote..



Again...not scriptural... please provide scriptural proof, stating that the saints in heaven pray to God on our behalf...

Selene said:


The bible says:

Romans 8:26
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

Romans 8:27
And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.

Hebrews 7
[sup]24 [/sup]but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. [sup]25 [/sup]Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

1 Timothy 2:4
[sup]5[/sup]For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, [sup]6 [/sup]who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

I am sorry too...that your doctrine does not allow you to think independently, outside of what your Church teaches....even though scripture disagrees with those beliefs...

Shalom!!!

No one is on trial. Like I said, several times now, if you do not like the Rosary, don't pray it - no one is forcing any belief on you.

As you already know, scripture does not tell us explicitly that we are allowed to pray to saints. Neither does it tell us we are allowed pray in churches on Sunday. or even worship inside them. In fact, the Bible doesn't tell us to explicitly engage in many of the activities we do everyday or specifically in our worship towards God. The good news about praying to saints is that Jesus actually engaged in the practice - which is more than I can say for praying to the Trinity or the belief in sola scriptura.

Luke 4:8; Galatians 5:1

Christ came to set us free - and that freedom can be compromised by legalism, literalism, and limiting oneself to explicit teachings in the Bible rather than looking at the implicit teachings.

My last post has pretty much summed up my thoughts on this subject so I will probably move on

Thanks for the discussion

 

[Angelina]

As you already know, scripture does not tell us explicitly that we are allowed to pray to saints. Neither does it tell us we are allowed pray in churches on Sunday.

Church is the gathering of believers...

Acts 12

[sup]11 [/sup]And when Peter had come to himself, he said, “Now I know for certain that the Lord has sent His angel, and has delivered me from the hand of Herod and from all the expectation of the Jewish people.”
[sup]12 [/sup]So, when he had considered this, he came to the house of Mary, the mother of John whose surname was Mark, where many were gathered together praying.

James 5:16
Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

or even worship inside them. In fact, the Bible doesn't tell us to explicitly engage in many of the activities we do everyday or specifically in our worship towards God.

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Hebrews 10
[sup]24 [/sup]And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. [sup]25[/sup]Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

The good news about praying to saints is that Jesus actually engaged in the practice - which is more than I can say for praying to the Trinity or the belief in sola scriptura.

1 Corinthians 15
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to youfirst of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Galatians 3
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

2 Timothy 3
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Romans 1
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

Be blessed and thanks also...

 

[aspen]

Church is the gathering of believers...

Agreed.

2 Timothy 3
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Absolutely. It is the verse that comes closest to supporting the protestant doctrine of sola scripture - unfortunately for protestants it only affirms the authority of Scripture, without excluding the authority of Tradition.

 

[Angelina]

Strange :huh:... your quote:

The good news about praying to saints is that Jesus actually engaged in the practice -

He only prayed to the Father...not any other saints. He talked to Elijah and Moses. He is the Son of God and does not need to pray to them because he is greater than they are. They are created beings where as he is eternal...You are twisting words trying to make scripture fit into your doctrine...

which is more than I can say for praying to the Trinity or the belief in sola scriptura.

The word of God and the Holy Spirit is what Jesus has given us. Without them, we cannot be saved. :huh:

Romans 10
[sup]8 [/sup]But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): [sup]9 [/sup]that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [sup]10 [/sup]For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ephesians 1
[sup]3 [/sup]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, [sup]14 [/sup]who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy

Luke 4:8;

This verse you have quoted speaks about satan asking Jesus to worship him -

Galatians 5:1

...and this one, Paul is talking about circumcision...

Christ came to set us free - and that freedom can be compromised by legalism, literalism,...

Indeed...unfortunately, the above scriptures are not what we have been talking about.

...and limiting oneself to explicit teachings in the Bible rather than looking at the implicit teachings.

Because God's word is sovereign...He is not indecisive, he means what he says and says what he means...there is no room left for interpretation [other than a few books like Daniel and Revelation]

I do not think that there is anything wrong with using prayer beads as a means of praying, however, I do believe that praying to Mary is unscriptural...

She is just a created being. Blessed, definitely and In heaven like all the other believers...nothing more....nothing less! :mellow:

Shalom!!!

 

[aspen]

Strange :huh:... your quote:
He only prayed to the Father...not any other saints. He talked to Elijah and Moses. He is the Son of God and does not need to pray to them because he is greater than they are. They are created beings where as he is eternal...You are twisting words trying to make scripture fit into your doctrine...

Hmm....I seem to remember that you agreed that praying is simply talking? Have you changed your mind? We are not talking about worship - simply talking. Do you deny that Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah? Twisting words? Now it sounds like I am being put on trial......

Show me a verse that says that pray is reserved for God alone.

The word of God and the Holy Spirit is what Jesus has given us. Without them, we cannot be saved. :huh:

Huh? So we need the Bible to be saved? I thought Jesus saved us

Romans 10
[sup]8 [/sup]But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): [sup]9 [/sup]that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [sup]10 [/sup]For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans was not written during Jesus's lifetime - and it was not apart of the canon for 200 hundred + more years.


Ephesians 1
[sup]3 [/sup]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, [sup]14 [/sup]who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Neither was Ephesians.....

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy

Neither was Acts......

This verse you have quoted speaks about satan asking Jesus to worship him ...and this one, Paul is talking about circumcision...

So worshiping and serving God only applies if we are fasting for 40 days and tempted in the desert by Satan? Freedom in the Lord only applies to the issue of circumcision?

Because God's word is sovereign...He is not indecisive, he means what he says and says what he means...there is no room left for interpretation [other than a few books like Daniel and Revelation]

LOL - really? So when Moses bargained with God about how many people needed to be righteous before God destroyed an entire city - he was wrong for questioning God?

I do not think that there is anything wrong with using prayer beads as a means of praying, however, I do believe that praying to Mary is unscriptural...

Ok. I disagree. In my opinion, you have failed to present a case against the practice.

She is just a created being. Blessed, definitely and In heaven like all the other believers...nothing more....nothing less! :mellow:

She was the first Christian - nothing more, nothing less.

Shalom!!!

 

[Angelina]

my quote

Strange :huh:... your quote:
He only prayed to the Father...not any other saints. He talked to Elijah and Moses. He is the Son of God and does not need to pray to them because he is greater than they are. They are created beings where as he is eternal...You are twisting words trying to make scripture fit into your doctrine...

Your quote:

Hmm....I seem to remember that you agreed that praying is simply talking? Have you changed your mind? We are not talking about worship - simply talking. Do you deny that Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah? Twisting words? Now it sounds like I am being put on trial......

Jesus was not praying to them...he was talking to them

Matthew 17:3
And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

Your quote:

Show me a verse that says that pray is reserved for God alone.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Now you show me where it states that those who have passed into heaven can pray for those who are still on earth...

My quote

The word of God and the Holy Spirit is what Jesus has given us. Without them, we cannot be saved. :huh:

Your quote:

Huh? So we need the Bible to be saved? I thought Jesus saved us

You know again...full well what I mean. The bible speaks of salvation. That is the gospel message...
The Holy spirit is the guarantee of our redemption

My quote

Romans 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Your quote

Romans was not written during Jesus's lifetime - and it was not apart of the canon for 200 hundred + more years.

So...Romans is not an acceptable part of the bible now...and Acts...Jesus was not alive during the days of acts either...do you wipe Acts out of the equation also???

Ephesians 1
3 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Your quote:

Neither was Ephesians.....

Another book bites the dust...

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy

your quote:

Neither was Acts......

...and there we have it... ^_^

My quote

This verse you have quoted speaks about satan asking Jesus to worship him ...and this one, Paul is talking about circumcision...

Your quote

So worshiping and serving God only applies if we are fasting for 40 days and tempted in the desert by Satan? Freedom in the Lord only applies to the issue of circumcision?

These were your verses...they apparently somehow applied to our conversatuion about prayer... but I'm unsure of how it fits in???

my quote

Because God's word is sovereign...He is not indecisive, he means what he says and says what he means...there is no room left for interpretation [other than a few books like Daniel and Revelation

Your quote:

LOL - really? So when Moses bargained with God about how many people needed to be righteous before God destroyed an entire city - he was wrong for questioning God?

Yes he was...because it was Abraham who was appealing to God on behalf of that city and not Moses [and he was not praying to God either]

My quote

I do not think that there is anything wrong with using prayer beads as a means of praying, however, I do believe that praying to Mary is unscriptural...

Your quote:

Ok. I disagree. In my opinion, you have failed to present a case against the practice.

I wasn't actually trying to...I had an issue with the "Hail Mary thingy...

She is just a created being. Blessed, definitely and In heaven like all the other believers...nothing more....nothing less! :mellow:

Your quote

She was the first Christian - nothing more, nothing less.

...no she wasn't...Abraham was...



Shalom!!!

 

[aspen]

Jesus was not praying to them...he was talking to them

Matthew 17:3
And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

What is the difference? They were no longer living on Earth, yet they were alive - they sound like saints to me. Jesus spoke with them in the exact same way that the majority of Christians speak to other saints.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Now you show me where it states that those who have passed into heaven can pray for those who are still on earth...

Not unless you are willing to show me a verse that tells us not to ask others for prayer. If you really believe we are one Body, you know that we are still connected to those whose life has ended on Earth and continued in Heaven.

You know again...full well what I mean. The bible speaks of salvation. That is the gospel message...

Which is not limited to the written word.

The Holy spirit is the guarantee of our redemption

Guarantee? What relationship is guaranteed? I think the OT show us plainly that God required us to participate in our relationship with Him.

So...Romans is not an acceptable part of the bible now...and Acts...Jesus was not alive during the days of acts either...do you wipe Acts out of the equation also???

I see - so because I am stating the truth about the three books you listed - that they were not written or canonized until 200 years later - you have decided that I must not view them as the word of God. Of course, you are missing my point completely - fact is, all three of those books were part of oral Tradition before they were ever written down or canonized. Yes they are inspired; no, not because they were written down. It is myour limitation (only accepting the written word as authoritative) that causes you to doubt my belief in God's word - not mine.

Yes he was...because it was Abraham who was appealing to God on behalf of that city and not Moses [and he was not praying to God either]

So how was Abraham communicating with God, if not in prayer? You know very well that Moses negotiated with God regarding the destruction of the people He lead out of Israel, many times. And you know my point - that God allows for negotiation.


...no she wasn't...Abraham was...

Abraham was a Jew - he was not excused from making sacrifices, Mary was the first person to have Jesus inside her - she was the first Christian.

Shalom!!!

 

[mjrhealth]

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

See one and only one. Praying to saints is Idolatory.

Another lie, thats why its called, DECEPTION ".

In all His Love