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Just heard about the rosary....

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by axle12693, Jan 24, 2012.

  1. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    dragonfly,

    If you don't want to discuss it with aspen via a pm I'll be happy to discuss it with you.

    It would make a change to have a sensible discussion in tbis thread.

    But I don't want to tread on aspen's toes.
     
  2. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    -- Sorry, Mungo, but the woman mentioned in Rev. 12:16-17 is NOT Mary.
    That is simply one more example of your inability to understand Scripture because you are trying to wash it through Catholicism first.

    And yes, Dragonfly, Aspen is serious. Wrong, but serious.
     
  3. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Yes she is.
     
  4. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    -- Prove it.
     
  5. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Quite frankly Foreigner I've lost interest in discussing anything with you.

    It seems impossible to get a rational argument out of you backed up by any evidence.

    All you want to do is scoff and give your opinions.

    If I gave you an argument and scripture you would just come back with something like "-- lol No."
     
  6. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi aspen,

    Thanks for the reply and the invitation. It may be a day or two before I take up the offer (if I do) but please don't take it personally if I don't get back to you on this particular topic. I very much appreciate the offer, though. :)

    Hi Mungo,

    Thanks... am not sure what I'm going to do. I have a lot of sympathy with Foreigner's viewpoint, but am less knowledgeable than he.


    Hi Foreigner,

    I may have to find out why aspen thinks that before I can make sense of it. I know why you think he's wrong, though. I will not be arguing for the mother of Jesus Christ to be given that 'role' in the invisble realm.
     
  7. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    -- You make an unsunstantiated claim about Rev. 12:16-17 being about Mary three seperate times.

    I ask you to provide support or proof for that claim and all you can respond with is, "I've lost interest in discussing anything with you."

    Then you complain you can't get a "rational argument." Newsflash, if you can't provide one, you shouldn't whine when you don't get one.

    Crazy, I know, right?

    But as I have said in the past, if you have "lost interest" in discussing anything with me, I think you should run with that idea.

    It will devastate me, but somehow I will carry on....
     
  8. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    And if I did, what would be your response?

    "lol No."
    or
    “But feel free to keep throwing that stuff against the wall. Eventually something will stick.”

    Or some such similarly constructive response!

    I won't waste my time.

    Good for you.
     
  9. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    -- I understand.
    You know that if you were to provide actual evidence to support your unsubstantiated claim that Rev.12: 16-17 is actually talking about Mary and I rejected it, it would reflect poorly on me to everyone here, which I think would delight you to no end.

    Knowing that yet refusing (yet again) to support one of your claims simply re-enforces the opinion that you have absolutely nothing to support that claim.

    The fact that none of the other more aggressive Catholics on this board have come screaming to your defense on that position further support that opinion.

    As I said, it hurts me deeply that you refuse to respond in the same way you demand others respond....but some how I will carry on ;)




    .
     
  10. neophyte

    neophyte Member

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    Foreigner, this is a good place to find the explanation
    Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant
    (Rv 12:1-2). The woman is Mary, the Ark of the Covenant, revealed by God to John. She was seen bearing ... But does this passage really refer to Mary? Some say the woman represents Israel or the Church, ... that the woman is Mary. The Bible begins with a real man (Adam), a real woman (Eve), and a real serpent (the ...
     
  11. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    -- Neophyte, pointing to a Catholic web site, filled with Catholic views, based on Catholic opinions, with no independent or verified evidence to support the Catholic position isn't going to convince ANYONE but a Catholic.

    Or to be more blunt: Unsubstantiated Catholic claims are NOT proof of truth.
     
  12. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    The woman in Revelations with the crown of stars is Mary. In Revelations, we already know that the child she gave birth to is Jesus, and Jesus is a person. The dragon who tried to swallow the child is Satan. Satain is a person. Therefore, it stands to reason that Mary is also a person. Some people say that the woman in Revelations is Israel. But reading through the passages in the Bible reveals that the after the woman gave birth to Jesus, the dragon (Satan) went after the woman. If the woman represented Israel....why would Satan go after Israel when it was Israel who rejected Jesus as the Messiah.

    Revelations 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.

    Satan would not persecute Israel for rejecting Christ; therefore, the woman could not be Israel. It is Mary. When the woman escaped the dragon's clutches, the dragon went after the other children of the woman. These other children are the Christians....the Church who call also called Mary their mother. Catholics have always called Mary "our Blessed Mother."

    Revelations 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    The woman in Revelations does not represent Israel because Israel did not build nor produce the Christian Church. The Church was built by one person.....Christ. It was Christ who built the Church. The Church is the "New Israel."
     
  13. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Well, there is the evidence. Now comes the dismissive and sarcastic remarks.
     
  14. lawrance

    lawrance New Member

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    Christ is Israel. Mother Mary is Israel, and all of the people in Christ are Israel.
    Israel is the People of God.
    "Israel" remember Jacob in the OT ?
    Israel never changes be it OT or NT as it's the same Israel.
    Some may call them self's Israel but are not an "Israel" at all.
    Satan's prime target is Israel.
     
  15. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Christ is God. Again, the woman in Revelations with the crown of stars could not be Israel because Israel rejected Christ as the Messiah and the Son of God. The dragon would not persecute Israel because they rejected Christ. In fact, the dragon would be rejoicing that Israel rejected Christ.
     
  16. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi Selene,

    The word 'Israel' means 'God prevails'. Satan is directly opposed to God and all His most passionate interests.

    The people of Israel who rejected Jesus did so because their hearts were not on God's interests.

    Not all Israelites rejected Jesus, and those who did not reject Him - who became founder members of His Church - became the new expression of 'Israel' as God always intended Israel to be - a company of those over whose hearts He in His love had prevailed. Zeph 3:17
     
  17. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Dr. Edward Sri has an interesting comment in his article "Decoding the Woman of the Apocalypse"

    A Marian interpretation avoids the pitfalls of views that see the woman not as an individual at all, but only as a symbol for the People of God. Such an either-or proposition itself is foreign to the biblical worldview in which individuals often symbolically represent collective groups (e.g., Romans 5:19, where Adam represents all humanity, and Psalm 44:4, where Jacob stands for all of Israel). Given this biblical notion of individuals representing larger groups of people, the woman in 12 could be understood as both an individual (Mary) and a representative of God’s People as a whole. And Mary is just the right person to embody both the Old and New Covenant since she herself stands at the hinge between the and the New. If there was one woman in salvation history who could represent both Israel and the beginning of the New Covenant People of God, it would be Mary.
     
    Selene likes this.
  18. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Satan would not oppose anyone who rejected Christ. The Jews who followed Christ (such as the Apostles and His disciples) are the ones whom Satan would oppose, and these people is the Church.

    Yes, the best person who would represent the woman in Revelations with the crown of stars would be Mary.
     
  19. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    Incorrect.

    -- First, the simplest comparison. The 12 stars on her head represent the 12 tribes of Israel, just as it did in Joseph's dreams in Genesis 37:9-11.
    Catholics try to say those 12 stars symbolize the 12 apostles, but there is nothing to support that claim.

    Catholics say it must be Mary because she is giving birth to Jesus. However, Isaiah 66:7-10 depicts Jerusalem as a woman going into labor and delivering "a son."

    -- If you wish to go the Catholic route, Micah 4:9-10 depicts Israel as a daughter going through labor pains.
    Near the end of the chapter it details how God's plan was to have a "ruler out of Bethlehem." Now, of course Catholics jump and claim that is further proof, but if you read the chapter itself it says things like:
    "Writhe in agony, O Daughter of Zion,
    like a woman in labor,
    for now you must leave the city
    to camp in the open field.
    You will go to Babylon;
    there you will be rescued.
    There the LORD will redeem you
    out of the hand of your enemies."


    Obviously, there is NO WAY that is about Mary and Jesus

    -- In Rev 12:14 where it sayts the woman is being saved by being carried away on "eagles wings" away from Satan, in Exodus 19 God says to Moses: "This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: [sup]4[/sup] ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself."

    Again, talking about Israel, not Mary.

    -- In Rev 2:15 it says that Satan is after the woman and spews out a flood of water after her. The earth then helps the woman by opening up the water.
    True, Mary and Joseph fled to Egypt, but there is no real context. The description, if applied to them, does not fit.
    When was Mary specifically chased by Satan who sent his people against her and God protected her by causing the earth to open up and swallow them? Then answer: Never
    HOWEVER, that description does fit Israel perfecly.

    -- In Rev 12:17 it talks about the dragon going off to make war with "the rest of her offspring." It is obviously not talking about future generations, but current additional offspring this specific woman has.
    If what Catholics claim about Mary never having sex with Joseph - ever - let along having other children, then this alone show it can't possible be Mary the scripture here is talking about.



    -- lol Wow, what an incredibly dismissive and sarcastic remark.
    You once talked about only posting if you have something to add.
    Tell me, was I wrong to believe you?



    .
     
  20. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    And what is there to support the claim that the twelve stars are the twelve tribes of Israel?

    They can just as easily represent the twelve apostles.

    You deny that the child in Rev 12 is Jesus?

    Who else will rule all the nations with a rod of iron?

    Who else was be taken up to God and his throne?

    The child is Jesus and Mary is his mother – the woman in Rev 12




    We need to look deeper in to this and see how it links with John’s gospel.​
    I’m taking this from Dr. Sri’s article - Decoding the Woman of the Apocalypse​

    Mary at the Cross in John 19:25–27. In John 19, we see from an earthly perspective what happens on Calvary: Jesus is crucified by the Romans while His mother and the beloved disciple stand at the foot of the Cross. Revelation 12 portrays the same scene, but from a heavenly perspective, so we can see with the eyes of angels what really happens on Good Friday: Calvary is the climactic cosmic showdown between God and the devil, and the real force behind Christ’s crucifixion is not the Romans, but Satan.
    While John 19 presents soldiers nailing Jesus to a cross, Revelation 12 shows us the dragon waiting to devour the male child and fiercely battling the forces of heaven (Rev. 12:4–5, 7) and the son emerging victorious, enthroned in heaven, while the devil is defeated and cast down (12:5–9).
    In the midst of this ultimate battle stands the "woman" in both scenes. In fact, there are four key parallels between the way the woman in Revelation 12 is portrayed and the way Mary at the cross in John 19 is described, highlighting how the Book of portrays the woman in ways that bring to mind Mary.
    1. "Woman." Just as 12:1 presents a figure who is called a "woman" and is the mother of the Messiah (12:5), so Mary in John 19:25–27 is called "woman" and stands at the as the mother of the Messiah.
    2. Birth Pains. Both women are portrayed in scenes involving the Daughter Zion birth pains theme. This is explicit with the woman in Revelation 12:1–2, but the scene of Mary at the Cross in John 19 also has birth pains imagery in the background when the passage is read in light of something Jesus says earlier, in John 16:20–21. While discussing His imminent Passion and death, Jesus tells an allegory of a woman who experiences the pains of labor and the joy of finally giving birth to her child. This allegory foreshadows what Jesus’ disciples will soon experience: pain when they see Him crucified and great joy when they see risen from the dead.
    Since this birth pains allegory foreshadows Calvary, its mention of a "woman" in her "hour" symbolizing Christ’s Passion and death clearly stands in the background of the scene of Mary at the Cross—a scene which similarly involves Mary being called "woman" (19:26) at the very hour of Christ’s Passion (cf. Jn. 12:27–31). With this birth pains imagery in the background of Jesus’ crucifixion in John 19, we find further connections between Mary at the and the woman in birth pains in Revelation 12.
    1. Satan’s Defeat. Just as the woman in 12 gives birth to a male child who is victoriously taken up to a throne in heaven while the devil is conquered and thrown out (12:5–9), so Mary in John 19 stands at the Cross with her messianic Son in His "hour"—which John’s Gospel portrays as the victorious hour when the devil is cast down (Jn. 12:27–31).
    2. Two-Fold Maternity. Both women are described as the mother of Jesus and as having a special motherly relationship with all of Christ’s faithful followers. Just as the woman in 12 is the mother not only of the individual Messiah (Rev. 12:5), but also of who "keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus" (12:17), so Mary at the Cross is presented not only as Jesus’ mother (Jn. 19:25–26), but also as the mother of the beloved disciple—a figure who represents all faithful disciples.
    All these parallels—"woman," birth pains, Satan’s defeat, the mother of Christ, and the mother of Christ’s followers—show a unity of thought about the woman figure in John’s writings. Therefore, if the woman in John 19 is clearly understood to be Mary, the woman in 12 also should be seen as Mary.





    It’s obviously not talking about genetic offspring.

    This depicts Mary as the new Eve (or second Eve) just as Jesus is the new Adam (or second Adam).

    This woman the mother of “those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.” – the new Eve (the mother of those living in Christ) just as the first Eve was “the mother of all, the living” (Gen 3:20).
     
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