JUSTIFICATION: Before God or Before Man? Examining James chapter 2

[mailmandan]

This OP is about James 2.

You claim James teaches faith alone salvation in James 2.
Quote James teaching your gospel?
Your silence speaks louder than words.

Context. In James 2:14 we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! Too simple!

The Greek word for justified "dikaioo" has more than one meaning depending on the context.

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - fits the context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Dikaioo Meaning - Greek Lexicon | New Testament (NAS)

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) *Fits the context.

So, James does not contradict Paul on faith alone. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

MICROPHONE DROP!

 

[Titus]

Context. In James 2:14 we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! Too simple!

The Greek word for justified "dikaioo" has more than one meaning depending on the context.

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - fits the context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Dikaioo Meaning - Greek Lexicon | New Testament (NAS)

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) *Fits the context.

So, James does not contradict Paul on faith alone. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

MICROPHONE DROP!

I told you to quote James teaching faith alone justifies.
You just gave me your commentary again!!!

You are proving me correct. You cannot prove that James teaches your gospel by allowing James himself to teach it.

Try again Dan.
James 2:24 ;2:20,
- but wilt thou know O, foolish man that faith without works is dead.

MICROPHONE DROP!

Childish arrogance.
This is the character I expect from Eternally Greatfull not you.
I actually have some respect for you.

 

[mailmandan]

I told you to quote James teaching faith alone justifies.
You just gave me your commentary again!!!

You are proving me correct. You cannot prove that James teaches your gospel by allowing James himself to teach it.

Commentary? I properly harmized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. I'm sorry that you reject context and Biblical hermeneutics. James is not using the term "justified" to mean accounted as righteous but is shown to be righteous as I previously explained.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) *Hermeneutics.

You are not correct and I already proved you wrong numerous times.

Try again Dan.
James 2:24 ;2:20,
- but wilt thou know O, foolish man that faith without works is dead.

Childish arrogance.
This is the character I expect from Eternally Greatfull not you.
I actually have some respect for you.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That would be like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree which is flawed logic.

James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!

I already thoroughly covered James 2:24 in post #101 and elsewhere. Try reading that post again and this time read my post in context and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine instead of trying to "force" scripture to "conform" to your biased church doctrine.

BTW I was just having some fun with the microphone drop comment. Lighten up.

 

[Titus]

Commentary? I properly harmized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. I'm sorry that you reject context and Biblical hermeneutics. James is not using the term "justified" to mean accounted as righteous but is shown to be righteous as I previously explained.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) *Hermeneutics.

You are not correct and I already proved you wrong numerous times.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That would be like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree which is flawed logic.

James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!

I already thoroughly covered James 2:24 in post #101 and elsewhere. Try reading that post again and this time read my post in context and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine instead of trying to "force" scripture to "conform" to your biased church doctrine.

BTW I was just having some fun with the microphone drop comment. Lighten up.

All you are doing is dodging.
Quote the word of God teaching in James 2 that faith alone justifies.

We are discussing the word of God.
Frankly I don't care about one man's think so's.
I only am persuaded when a man says what the context is and then proves it by quoting the word of God.

You cannot.
Let the Bible speak for itself.

James 2:24,
- ye see then that by works a man is justified and NOT by faith alone

The Bible proves itself not men explaining it away and then cannot even quote the very verses they are teaching on.
Why are you running from the Scriptures?
We both know why.

 

[mailmandan]

All you are doing is dodging.
Quote the word of God teaching in James 2 that faith alone justifies.

There is nothing for me to dodge because James is not using the term "justified" to mean accounted as righteous but is shown to be righteous. For the upteenth time, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

We are discussing the word of God.
Frankly I don't care about one man's think so's.
I only am persuaded when a man says what the context is and then proves it by quoting the word of God.

I already said what the context is and proved it by quoting the word of God by properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

You cannot.
Let the Bible speak for itself.

I can and I did. You just don't have ears to hear.

James 2:24,
- ye see then that by works a man is justified and NOT by faith alone

Context. You see that by works a man is justified (shown to be righteous) and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone/barren of works. (James 2:14-18)

The Bible proves itself not men explaining it away and then cannot even quote the very verses they are teaching on.
Why are you running from the Scriptures?
We both know why.

Based on your face value eisegesis interpretation, you have James saying that by works a man is justified (accounted as righteous) and not by faith in Christ alone, which culminates in salvation by faith and works and is in contradiction to Romans 4:2-6. Roman Catholics, Mormons and other works-salvationists make the same fatal error.

So, I'm running from the Scriptures? LOL! Don't flatter yourself.

 

[Titus]

Context. You see that by works a man is justified (shown to be righteous) and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone/barren of works. (James 2:14-18)

Good. Thank you.
Nowhere does James teach faith alone justifies in this quotation.
But at least you used the Bible.
btw, I'm dead serious about the 1,000 dollars for giving a verse that teaches faith alone puts us IN Christ where ALL spiritual blessings are given.

Since you have proven your inability to quote James teaching your gospel of justification by faith alone.
How about you stop digging yourself deeper into the hole you've created.
I'd rather you not respond anymore.
You give nothing to persuade me.

You can though.
Just fulfill my two requests and you will have a new convert.
If not, please dont respond any more.
Thanks

I consider you a decent man unlike Eternally Grateful.
I would be embarrassed to have him as a friend the way he conducts himself.

 

[Behold]

Paul...
Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Loving your neighbor as yourself wont save you.

Who will save you?
Jesus on The Cross

 

[Titus]

Loving your neighbor as yourself wont save you.

Who will save you?
Jesus on The Cross

Are you teaching if you don't love others only believe in the death, burial and ressurection of Christ you will be saved?


The gospel is the death, burial and ressurection of Christ, 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
But that is not the response to it.
Look at Peter's gospel preaching in Acts 2.
He preached the death, burial and ressurection.
Verse 38 is the response to the gospel.

The demons believe in the gospel.
Belief only cannot save them nor mankind.
One must respond in faith which is our obedience to the gospel.

 

[Titus]

There is no work you can offer God, no moral performace or behavior, that you can offer God that He will accept.
As you are offering it as a sinner or as a saved one.

Consider that the works that you can do, that you would define as obedience......like trying to keep commandments, or giving to the poor, or going to church, or bible reading, or being good to people......or trying to be like Jesus......
= You can do all this as an UNBELIEVER.
Now, does it save you? Does God accept it?

Salvation is not based on how many good works one does.
Salvation is based on that one cannot live up to Gods standard of righteousness therefore we must be saved by grace.

Grace does not cancel out obeying Gods commandments.
God saves those who obey Him.
But the obedient works we do by themselves do not save.
If they did that would be a merit based system of salvation.
What they do is, they cause God to feel mercy towards us.
Then God gives us a free gift that is undeserved. His grace.
Remember God loves everyone and wants everyone saved.
But He only blesses those who submit to His will by gifting them grace.
God will not have mercy on unbelievers even though He wants them to be saved.
Because Gods grace is conditional. Conditioned upon our willingness to believe in Him and to obey what He commands us to do.
So just because we must respond to the gospel by doing what Jesus says. Our doing does not earn us salvation. We cannot earn because the only way is perfect obedience which is sinless perfection.
God knows this so by His mercy and Grace He saves those who love Him.
Love according to the Biblical definition is obedience to Gods commandments, John 14:21.

 

[Behold]

Salvation is not based on how many good works one does.
Salvation is based on that one cannot live up to Gods standard of righteousness therefore we must be saved by grace.

God's Grace is Jesus on The Cross, bleeding and dying for your sin.

That's God's Grace.<<<.......and its also = God's Eternal Salvation that is the "Blood Atonement" and the NEW Covenant and NT.

Grace does not cancel out obeying Gods commandments.

Jesus THE Christ on the Cross cancels out you trying to save yourself or keep yourself saved by keeping commandments, and behavior modificaitno and lifestyle changes. @Titus

 

[Titus]

God's Grace is Jesus on The Cross, bleeding and dying for your sin.

That's God's Grace.<<<.......and its also = God's Eternal Salvation that is the "Blood Atonement" and the NEW Covenant and NT.




Jesus THE Christ on the Cross cancels out you trying to save yourself or keep yourself saved by keeping commandments, and behavior modificaitno and lifestyle changes. @Titus

Wheres your scripture?
What's wrong with wanting to be saved?
If you think no one has anything to do with their salvation then you need to join the calvinist's.
Acts 2:40,
- and with many other words did he testify and exhort saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation

You think doing what God asks you to do is meriting salvation.
Give scripture for it.

 

[Titus]

Jesus THE Christ on the Cross cancels out you trying to save yourself or keep yourself saved by keeping commandments, and behavior modificaitno and lifestyle changes. @Titus

Jesus on the cross is not responding to the gospel.

What did Jesus tell those they must do in response to His gospel.
Please don't cherry pick faith verses. Give al, the passages on what Jesus taught one must do in response to His gospel.

Matthew 28:18-20.

 

[Behold]

Wheres your scripture?

For what?

Do you need me to quote verses that say that Jesus died on the Cross for all your sin?
Do you want me to teach that this Salvation is the "imputed righteousness" of Christ?

What's wrong with wanting to be saved?

Ive not said anything about wanting to be saved.
Ive simply explain HOW a person is saved and what keeps them saved.
And its not confessing sin, or trying to be like Christ or keeping commandments.

If you think no one has anything to do with their salvation then you need to join the calvinist's.
Acts 2:40,
- and with many other words did he testify and exhort saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation

There are no Christians in your Verse.
In your verse....Jesus has not died on The Cross yet, to offer Salvation, so that CHRISTianty can begin.
Your verse shows Jesus talking to unsaved Jews.
Are you an unsaved Jew, ??? if so, that verse is for you @Titus

You think doing what God asks you to do is meriting salvation.

Salvation is "grace through faith, without works or deeds of the Law".

Its "Justification by FAITH"........not by works, or commandment keeping, or trying to imiate Jesus, or water baptism.

 

[Titus]

For what?

Do you need me to quote verses that say that Jesus died on the Cross for all your sin?
Do you want me to teach that this Salvation is the "imputed righteousness" of Christ?

Yes I want scripture.
We are discussing Bible.
Claims must be backed by Scripture.

 

[mailmandan]

Are you teaching if you don't love others only believe in the death, burial and ressurection of Christ you will be saved?

1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

The gospel is the death, burial and ressurection of Christ, 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
But that is not the response to it.

Believing the gospel (Romans 1:16) by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation is the response to it.

Look at Peter's gospel preaching in Acts 2.
He preached the death, burial and ressurection.
Verse 38 is the response to the gospel.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 26:18) *Perfect Harmony*

The demons believe in the gospel. Belief only cannot save them nor mankind.
One must respond in faith which is our obedience to the gospel.

The demons may believe "mental assent" that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" BUT the demons do not believe (have faith in, trust in, reliance in) the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for salvation. Big difference!

 

[Behold]

Yes I want scripture.

I quoted Scriptue.
Posted it.

If you can't recognize it, that's your issue, not mine.

We are discussing Bible.

Im discussing Pauls' Theology, you are discussing your own

 

[Titus]

There are no Christians in your Verse.
In your verse....Jesus has not died on The Cross yet, to offer Salvation, so that CHRISTianty can begin.
Your verse shows Jesus talking to unsaved Jews.
Are you an unsaved Jew, ??? if so, that verse is for you @Titus

Not interested in Bible discussion with folks who have not read the Bible.
If you want to know what the Bible teaches I'll teach.
Jesus is dead in Acts 1 and 2.
Jesus has already ascended into heaven.
Wheres your scripture that Acts 2 is not the gospel of Jesus Christ?

There are no Christians in your Verse.
In your verse....Jesus has not died on The Cross yet, to offer Salvation, so that CHRISTianty can begin.
Your verse shows Jesus talking to unsaved Jews.
Are you an unsaved Jew, ??? if so, that verse is for you

There are no Christians in your Verse.
In your verse....Jesus has not died on The Cross yet, to offer Salvation, so that CHRISTianty can begin.
Your verse shows Jesus talking to unsaved Jews.
Are you an unsaved Jew, ??? if so, that verse is for you

 

[Titus]

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

Dan the Greek literally will not allow your interpretation.
You need to stop thinking you understand Greek when you have no training in that language.

They believed in the gospel in verse 37.
We know this because the sword of the Spirit pierced their hearts.
The sword of the Spirit does not pierce the hearts of the unbeliever Dan.
That is Biblical fact!!!
I can prove this with Scripture.

Therefore their response was men and brethren what shall we do.
That response proves they were cut to the heart.
Unbelievers dont get upset asking what they must do.
Now Peter tells them how to respond to the gospel.
He answers their question of what they must do.

Verse 38 repent and be baptized everyone of you...
Direct commandment Dan.
They must do both!!!

This refutes your gospel of repentance before faith.

John's baptism they had to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins.
Just like Acts 2:38.

If they did not submit to baptism then they did not repent.
Do you really think someone can reject the will of God not be baptized but repent?

Dan your teaching makes no sense.

Mark 1:4,
- John did baptize in the wilderness and preach the baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins

No baptism no repentance.
It's a ridiculous argument to make when God gives you a direct commandment to repent, Acts 17:30.
And a direct commandment to be baptized, Mark 1:4 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 10:47-48 ; Acts 22:16.
And you try and argue only repentance was required to be saved.

In your religion you only have to obey certain commandments like repentance, Acts 17:30.
But disobey other commandments like baptism, Acts 2:38 ; Acts 10:47-48.

In reality you reject all obedience to all of Jesus' commandments to be forgiven.

Your teaching is very confusing because you are confused.

Matthew 7:21.

 

[mailmandan]

Dan the Greek literally will not allow your interpretation.
You need to stop thinking you understand Greek when you have no training in that language.

They believed in the gospel in verse 37.
We know this because the sword of the Spirit pierced their hearts.
The sword of the Spirit does not pierce the hearts of the unbeliever Dan.
That is Biblical fact!!!
I can prove this with Scripture.

Therefore their response was men and brethren what shall we do.
That response proves they were cut to the heart.
Unbelievers dont get upset asking what they must do.
Now Peter tells them how to respond to the gospel.
He answers their question of what they must do.

Verse 38 repent and be baptized everyone of you...
Direct commandment Dan.
They must do both!!!

This refutes your gospel of repentance before faith.

John's baptism they had to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins.
Just like Acts 2:38.

If they did not submit to baptism then they did not repent.
Do you really think someone can reject the will of God not be baptized but repent?

Dan your teaching makes no sense.

Mark 1:4,
- John did baptize in the wilderness and preach the baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins

No baptism no repentance.
It's a ridiculous argument to make when God gives you a direct commandment to repent, Acts 17:30.
And a direct commandment to be baptized, Mark 1:4 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 10:47-48 ; Acts 22:16.
And you try and argue only repentance was required to be saved.

In your religion you only have to obey certain commandments like repentance, Acts 17:30.
But disobey other commandments like baptism, Acts 2:38 ; Acts 10:47-48.

In reality you reject all obedience to all of Jesus' commandments to be forgiven.

Your teaching is very confusing because you are confused.

Matthew 7:21.

As Greek scholar AT Robertson stated: Change of number from plural to singular and of person from second to third. This change marks a break in the thought here that the English translation does not preserve. The first thing to do is make a radical and complete change of heart and life. Then let each one be baptized after this change has taken place, and the act of baptism be performed “in the name of Jesus Christ” (εν τωι ονοματι Ιησου Χριστου — en tōi onomati Iēsou Christou).

Greek scholar A. T. Robertson authored Word Pictures in the New Testament. In his comments on Acts 2:38 he said, - “One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. "My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received.” The illustrations of both usages are numerous in the N.T. and the Koin, generally (Robertson, Grammar, page 592).

Acts 2 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

 

[mailmandan]

Your teaching is very confusing because you are confused.

Matthew 7:21.

I'm not the one who is confused. John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.